McDermott in regards to Tyrod

[Gugny]

Explain why Cardale has any less potential than Watson? Both won national championships.

 

As for Foles, some people must really love bad football.

 

Cardale got a 25 on the Wunderlic. I think he's worth keeping as a backup, for sure, at the very least.

[JohnC]

 

I am all about the QB position but I think you are confusing improbable with impossible.

 

The Chiefs had a chance to win a SB this year.

 

Denver got to a SB last year in great part due to circumstance.

 

They got homefield due to NE suffering a number of late season injuries then had very winnable home game versus a banged up Steelers team and banged up Patriots team.

 

Their amazing defense was part myth.........it was very good but some timely breaks gave them a chance to win a SB.

 

They then hardly moved the football on offense in the SB and still won due to opponent mistakes.

 

The takeaway is that if you don't have a QB you need some breaks.......but it has been proven that it can be done.

 

What we do know for certain is that if you want to be in contention for periods of many years at a time then you need a top QB.

 

You aren't simply limited by how far you can go in any given season though.

 

Your assertion to the contrary is false.

 

Myself and others see Tyrod as a QB and the Bills running game as something that can get you into the playoffs.......and once there you at least have a chance.

 

Additionally I don't think a system that tries to make defenses crowd the LOS but also play safeties deep is a bad basis to build upon.

 

You can go from simpler offenses to more complex/pass dependent ones.......there are many examples including ALL 4 teams that are left in the playoffs.

 

GB used to be much more balanced......Atlanta relied HEAVILY on the run last year.......Roethlisberger won his first SB barely passing at all.......same with Brady's first.

 

You can start with a simple system and go from there but what you need is a good incubator for QB play and I tend to think the Roman designed Lynn offense was a good basis to start with.

 

Hopefully Chilly or Nelly will assimilate about 80% of Romans playbook at least and then just add to it and not try to ream a WCO up the organizations collective chute this year.

Let's start off with the easy part. The Chiefs had virtually no chance to go to the playoffs with the caliber of play exhibited by Alex Smith. It's too limited! If you want to quibble I will compromise and say that you have an infinitesimal chance of getting to the SB with the caliber of play he displayed.

 

With respect to Roman and Lynn designing an offense that was appropriate for TT I agree with you. But that isn't the problem. The issue with him is whether he can elevate his limited game and play a more sophisticated offense that gives a team a good chance to go beyond a wild-card contending team at best. I'm not saying conclusively that he can't but I do say that I have my doubts.

 

As far as a WCO that would be out of the question for TT for the obvious reason that rhythm passing and pin point accuracy on short to medium routes are not skills that he currently possesses or will ever possess.

 

I'm not a TT basher. Far from it. I believe that he should be retained. But that is not to say that I'm not aware of his limitations and flaws.

[BADOLBILZ]

Let's start off with the easy part. The Chiefs had virtually no chance to go to the playoffs with the caliber of play exhibited by Alex Smith. It's too limited! If you want to quibble I will compromise and say that you have an infinitesimal chance of getting to the SB with the caliber of play he displayed.

 

With respect to Roman and Lynn designing an offense that was appropriate for TT I agree with you. But that isn't the problem. The issue with him is whether he can elevate his limited game and play a more sophisticated offense that gives a team a good chance to go beyond a wild-card contending team at best. I'm not saying conclusively that he can't but I do say that I have my doubts.

 

As far as a WCO that would be out of the question for TT for the obvious reason that rhythm passing and pin point accuracy on short to medium routes are not skills that he currently possesses or will ever possess.

 

I'm not a TT basher. Far from it. I believe that he should be retained. But that is not to say that I'm not aware of his limitations and flaws.

 

I'd say that Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson and the horrendous 2015 Peyton Manning would qualify as 3 instances where teams have WON a SB without a good QB since the Bills last went to the postseason.

 

Jake Delhomme and Rex Grossman have also guided teams to the SB in that time frame.

 

That's a small chance for a team without a franchise QB will win a conference championship or SB.......statistically between 10%-15% in a given year...........but infinitesimal is clearly an exaggeration.

 

Again.........the KNOWN factor is that if you want to have a legitimate chance to win a SB each year for a long period of time you need a franchise QB.

[JohnC]

 

I'd say that Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson and the horrendous 2015 Peyton Manning would qualify as 3 instances where teams have WON a SB without a good QB since the Bills last went to the postseason.

 

Jake Delhomme and Rex Grossman have also guided teams to the SB in that time frame.

 

That's a small chance for a team without a franchise QB will win a conference championship or SB.......statistically between 10%-15% in a given year...........but infinitesimal is clearly an exaggeration.

 

Again.........the KNOWN factor is that if you want to have a legitimate chance to win a SB each year for a long period of time you need a franchise QB.

Hallelujah! We agree. Are you the type of person who drives from Buffalo to Cleveland via Baltimore? You are so brilliant that you make a basic point that good qbing is fundamental to success by referring to the specific isotopes in a nuclear plant's ability to process material for a nuclear bomb. Sheesh!

 

You are a good fellow but you can be exhausting to deal with.

 

Rule of thumb for wizards: Simplicity is to clarity as Complexity is to confusion.

[Nihilarian]

Let's start off with the easy part. The Chiefs had virtually no chance to go to the playoffs with the caliber of play exhibited by Alex Smith. It's too limited! If you want to quibble I will compromise and say that you have an infinitesimal chance of getting to the SB with the caliber of play he displayed.

 

Alex Smith made quite a few comebacks in his time at KC and if not for a holding call the Chiefs would have tied that game with a 2 point conversion. The final score was 16-18 so it wasn't out of the realm of possibility that the Chiefs win that game or get to the SB this year. Smith went 11-4 this year and Buffalo would be so lucky to have him at QB.

 

I think the Bills would be incredibly foolish to let Tyrod walk away this year as it generally takes 2-4 years of actual game playing experience before a player realizes their full potential. It really can take less and longer for some players like Trent Green who took 6 years. Rich Gannon took 13 years and his first three were on the bench. Jim Plunkett was the first overall pick by NE in 1971 and bombed for 9 years until Oakland acquired him, benched him for a season and he went on to win 2 SB.

 

Teams can no longer wait more than a few seasons for a QB to develop sometimes it just takes time. I keep posting that the Chargers gave up on Drew Brees and drafted Eli Manning/Phillip Rivers to replace him after he was benched in his second season. Looking back at how things have gone for Rivers and Brees which QB should the Chargers have kept? (Brees didn't injure his shoulder until the end of his 4th year and he threw for 27 TD and 7 INTs that year)

 

The Bills need to bolster their WR corps and finally fix that RT position and perhaps Taylor will develop into a better player this year. It will also help to have a top OC and QB coach but it isn't looking good at this point.

[BADOLBILZ]

Hallelujah! We agree. Are you the type of person who drives from Buffalo to Cleveland via Baltimore? You are so brilliant that you make a basic point that good qbing is fundamental to success by referring to the specific isotopes in a nuclear plant's ability to process material for a nuclear bomb. Sheesh!

 

You are a good fellow but you can be exhausting to deal with.

 

Rule of thumb for wizards: Simplicity is to clarity as Complexity is to confusion.

 

 

I've repeated the same point to you a number of times.....virtually every time I mention Tyrod Taylor......not even sure why you were arguing with me......perhaps you didn't read them thru.

 

Tyrod is a bridge but he's strong enough to get you to a better place from whence to develop the QB you need for sustained excellence, IMO.

[JohnC]

Alex Smith made quite a few comebacks in his time at KC and if not for a holding call the Chiefs would have tied that game with a 2 point conversion. The final score was 16-18 so it wasn't out of the realm of possibility that the Chiefs win that game or get to the SB this year. Smith went 11-4 this year and Buffalo would be so lucky to have him at QB.

 

I think the Bills would be incredibly foolish to let Tyrod walk away this year as it generally takes 2-4 years of actual game playing experience before a player realizes their full potential. It really can take less and longer for some players like Trent Green who took 6 years. Rich Gannon took 13 years and his first three were on the bench. Jim Plunkett was the first overall pick by NE in 1971 and bombed for 9 years until Oakland acquired him, benched him for a season and he went on to win 2 SB.

 

Teams can no longer wait more than a few seasons for a QB to develop sometimes it just takes time. I keep posting that the Chargers gave up on Drew Brees and drafted Eli Manning/Phillip Rivers to replace him after he was benched in his second season. Looking back at how things have gone for Rivers and Brees which QB should the Chargers have kept? (Brees didn't injure his shoulder until the end of his 4th year and he threw for 27 TD and 7 INTs that year)

 

The Bills need to bolster their WR corps and finally fix that RT position and perhaps Taylor will develop into a better player this year. It will also help to have a top OC and QB coach but it isn't looking good at this point.

With respect to the highlighted area I have come to the same conclusion about keeping him and giving him better receivers and improving the pass blocking, starting with dramatically upgrading RT.

 

As far as Alex Smith there comes a point when you are what you are. He is too cautious of a passer to the point that there are too few downfield passes that whether completed it or not would open up the field. Is that the fault of his coaches or does he have the Trent Edwards mentality where he prefers to go safe and small instead of more risk with more reward? To me it doesn't matter. He is what he is. I would prefer TT to him.

 

What I have said all along about TT and the qb situation is that whether he stays or goes the front office should still be in pursuit of an upgrade at that pivotal position. If TT develops into a sterling qb then you won't here me complain. This franchise pre-TT and with the addition of TT has had opportunities to acquire talented qbs but for whatever reason were reluctant to pull the lever. In my view it would have made more sense to make a bold move to acquire a highly rated qb in the draft instead of making a bold move and using his chips to acquire a dynamic receiving prospect in Watkins. As it stands his golden talents are not sufficiently being utilized because of the caliber of qb/s throwing to him. What's the saying: Putting the cart ahead of the horse?

 

 

I've repeated the same point to you a number of times.....virtually every time I mention Tyrod Taylor......not even sure why you were arguing with me......perhaps you didn't read them thru.

 

Tyrod is a bridge but he's strong enough to get you to a better place from whence to develop the QB you need for sustained excellence, IMO.

We are in accord and we are simpatico.

[PromoTheRobot]

 

Cardale got a 25 on the Wunderlic. I think he's worth keeping as a backup, for sure, at the very least.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonderlic_test

 

25 would make Cardale above average for an NFL QB. They average a score of 24.

[8-8 Forever?]

Smart of Taylor to call McDermott and smart of McD to respond as he did. It isn't likely to impact the Bills from moving on from TT if that's what they've decided to do, but it was good to see that interaction.

and will guarantee 3 more years of suck. go ahead guys, blow it up, waste the roster you have and rebuild. fans are checking out

[iinii]

With respect to the highlighted area I have come to the same conclusion about keeping him and giving him better receivers and improving the pass blocking, starting with dramatically upgrading RT.

 

As far as Alex Smith there comes a point when you are what you are. He is too cautious of a passer to the point that there are too few downfield passes that whether completed it or not would open up the field. Is that the fault of his coaches or does he have the Trent Edwards mentality where he prefers to go safe and small instead of more risk with more reward? To me it doesn't matter. He is what he is. I would prefer TT to him.

 

What I have said all along about TT and the qb situation is that whether he stays or goes the front office should still be in pursuit of an upgrade at that pivotal position. If TT develops into a sterling qb then you won't here me complain. This franchise pre-TT and with the addition of TT has had opportunities to acquire talented qbs but for whatever reason were reluctant to pull the lever. In my view it would have made more sense to make a bold move to acquire a highly rated qb in the draft instead of making a bold move and using his chips to acquire a dynamic receiving prospect in Watkins. As it stands his golden talents are not sufficiently being utilized because of the caliber of qb/s throwing to him. What's the saying: Putting the cart ahead of the horse?

We are in accord and we are simpatico.

Yes the cart is ahead of the horse, but where is that horse is the ultimate question?

[JohnC]

Yes the cart is ahead of the horse, but where is that horse is the ultimate question?

This organization had opportunities to select quality prospects but we let them pass. The Bills moved up in the third round to select a track receiver in TJ Graham instead of taking a chance on Russell Wilson. The Bills had an opportunity to select Derek Carr with a trade down in the first round but we didn't, so he went to the Raiders at the top of the second round. Last year we drafted a lazy and undisciplined DT, Adolphus Washington, in the third round when Prescott would have been a good prospect. The Bills could have drafted a good (not special) qb in Bridgewater's draft year, even with a trade down. My point is that this organization has had opportunities, and they let those opportunities pass to other teams.

 

The Falcons gave up a lot to trade up for Jullio Jones. Was it worth it? Yes, because they had their franchise qb, Matt Ryan, already in place to take advantage of Jones's stunning talents. If you are going to take chances in the draft do it for the position in which it will have a major affect on the team. As I have previously stated Khalil Mack was a top of the draft pick who is also an all-pro defensive stud. Yet the player who has dramatically changed the fortunes the most for the Raiders is Carr, a player we let pass when we were a qb starved team.

 

Especially if we retain TT now would be a good time to take the opportunity to draft a high end qb prospect because there wouldn't be the pressure to play the prospect right away. Too many people make the point that drafting a qb with a high pick is a waste because we have other immediate needs that can be filled by a draftee who can play right away. That line of thinking is what I am strenuously disagreeing with. That same argument has been used for the past generation.Where has it gotten us? It has resulted in us not having a good enough qb to get this franchise out of its generational malaise.

[Coach Tuesday]

This organization had opportunities to select quality prospects but we let them pass. The Bills moved up in the third round to select a track receiver in TJ Graham instead of taking a chance on Russell Wilson. The Bills had an opportunity to select Derek Carr with a trade down in the first round but we didn't, so he went to the Raiders at the top of the second round. Last year we drafted a lazy and undisciplined DT, Adolphus Washington, in the third round when Prescott would have been a good prospect. The Bills could have drafted a good (not special) qb in Bridgewater's draft year, even with a trade down. My point is that this organization has had opportunities, and they let those opportunities pass to other teams.

 

The Falcons gave up a lot to trade up for Jullio Jones. Was it worth it? Yes, because they had their franchise qb, Matt Ryan, already in place to take advantage of Jones's stunning talents. If you are going to take chances in the draft do it for the position in which it will have a major affect on the team. As I have previously stated Khalil Mack was a top of the draft pick who is also an all-pro defensive stud. Yet the player who has dramatically changed the fortunes the most for the Raiders is Carr, a player we let pass when we were a qb starved team.

 

Especially if we retain TT now would be a good time to take the opportunity to draft a high end qb prospect because there wouldn't be the pressure to play the prospect right away. Too many people make the point that drafting a qb with a high pick is a waste because we have other immediate needs that can be filled by a draftee who can play right away. That line of thinking is what I am strenuously disagreeing with. That same argument has been used for the past generation.Where has it gotten us? It has resulted in us not having a good enough qb to get this franchise out of its generational malaise.

Please pin this post.

 

In addition, please fax it to One Bills Drive on the hour, every hour, between now and the draft.

[iinii]

This organization had opportunities to select quality prospects but we let them pass. The Bills moved up in the third round to select a track receiver in TJ Graham instead of taking a chance on Russell Wilson. The Bills had an opportunity to select Derek Carr with a trade down in the first round but we didn't, so he went to the Raiders at the top of the second round. Last year we drafted a lazy and undisciplined DT, Adolphus Washington, in the third round when Prescott would have been a good prospect. The Bills could have drafted a good (not special) qb in Bridgewater's draft year, even with a trade down. My point is that this organization has had opportunities, and they let those opportunities pass to other teams.

 

The Falcons gave up a lot to trade up for Jullio Jones. Was it worth it? Yes, because they had their franchise qb, Matt Ryan, already in place to take advantage of Jones's stunning talents. If you are going to take chances in the draft do it for the position in which it will have a major affect on the team. As I have previously stated Khalil Mack was a top of the draft pick who is also an all-pro defensive stud. Yet the player who has dramatically changed the fortunes the most for the Raiders is Carr, a player we let pass when we were a qb starved team.

 

Especially if we retain TT now would be a good time to take the opportunity to draft a high end qb prospect because there wouldn't be the pressure to play the prospect right away. Too many people make the point that drafting a qb with a high pick is a waste because we have other immediate needs that can be filled by a draftee who can play right away. That line of thinking is what I am strenuously disagreeing with. That same argument has been used for the past generation.Where has it gotten us? It has resulted in us not having a good enough qb to get this franchise out of its generational malaise.

I am not arguing with you at all. Everything you list is point on but now that the horse is out of the barn so to speak can we get one back in or not let the next one out?

[JohnC]

I am not arguing with you at all. Everything you list is point on but now that the horse is out of the barn so to speak can we get one back in or not let the next one out?

As you point out we are not really disagreeing. It's not about looking back as it is about moving forward. It just seems that this franchise continues to allow opportunities to pass them by because of their reluctance to boldly act with respect to the qb position.

 

Let's look at the Cowboys. They desperately wanted to select Lynch with their next pick, and were aggressively attempting to get back into the first round. The Broncos beat them to the punch and moved back into the first round to select him. The next qb the Cowboys wanted was Connor Cook. The Raiders who were drafting higher in the round selected him, even though they already had Carr on the roster. So the Cowboys then selected Prescott and it worked out stunningly well. Moral of the story is to keep at it until things work out.

 

Is Cardale our jackpot qb? It's hard to say. But what I can say is that the Cowboys selected a qb who demonstrated he was ready right from the start. And the Bills selected a qb who they acknowledged wasn't ready to get on the field in his rookie year.

 

As far as the TT retention or not issue I would prefer to keep him. That will buy you some time for the development of another qb or maybe he can turn out to be a good qb under the right circumstances.

Edited January 18, 2017 by JohnC

[Thurman#1]

 

New Bills coach Sean McDermott spoke on the phone with Tyrod Taylor Thursday and met with the quarterback for a few minutes before his introductory press conference Friday at One Bills Drive.

"Fine young man," McDermott said. "I remember going against Tyrod a little bit in the preseason, I’ve watched him in crossover tape, so I know the skill set, I know what he brings to the table."

https://buffalonews.com/2017/01/13/sean-mcdermott-cool-tyrod-taylors-future-bills/

Let me preface by saying I am a 100% Tyrod supporter. However, I find it interesting that Tyrod was actually at the building on the day of McDermotts press conference. According to McDermott they spoke over the phone first and then they actually meet eachother right before he goes out and talks to the media.

Now call me crazy, but why would a coach who isn't a supporter of Tyrod go out of his way to talk to the man ? I find it hard to believe that Tyrod being in the building was just a coincidence, so McDermott must have asked him to come. I think its telling that McDermott, a guy who talked at his press conference about building a strong relationship with his players, went out of his way to talk to Tyrod. It was the first thing he did after he was given the job. If were moving on from Tyrod, why would he do this? I'll tell you why. Because Tyrod is a veteran leader on the team who commands the respect from all our other players and McDermott is no fool. We burned Tyrod bad at the end of the season and have done nothing to give him assurances he is in our plans. I think McDermott changed that today.

https://buffalonews.com/2017/01/13/sean-mcdermott-cool-tyrod-taylors-future-bills/

 

 

 

 

Why would he do it?

 

Because he thought Tyrod might re-negotiate to make his contract more team-acceptable?

 

Or just because talking to a possible QB solution might make sense?

 

I think you're making too much of this. How many other players did he meet with? What had he said with Whaley about the players on this team? No way to know, no way to figure the importance of any of this.

Good post.

 

They didn't take Russel Wilson because Nix and Whaley don't like smaller QBs. Not that they have a clue how to Identify QBs anyway...

 

 

 

There was a lot of buzz that they were going to take Wilson, but a round later in the fourth ... that Wilson was the reason Nix came out that year and said you have to take QBs a round earlier than you think you do.

 

 

I've repeated the same point to you a number of times.....virtually every time I mention Tyrod Taylor......not even sure why you were arguing with me......perhaps you didn't read them thru.

 

Tyrod is a bridge but he's strong enough to get you to a better place from whence to develop the QB you need for sustained excellence, IMO.

 

 

 

You don't need to be in a better place to develop the QB you need for sustained excellence.

 

Most great QBs have come in as first overall picks, to awful teams. You don't need a good team in a new guy's first year. You need to work hard on developing as the young guy himself does.

 

Having said that, I wouldn't mind keeping Tyrod if he re-negotiates. But guaranteeing a $30.5 mill salary cap hit for Tyrod even if he only stays a year does not make sense for a team with salary cap pressure.

Edited January 18, 2017 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

 

Myself and others see Tyrod as a QB and the Bills running game as something that can get you into the playoffs.......and once there you at least have a chance.

 

 

 

The "chance" you have to win a Super Bowl by making the playoffs is often only a mathematical or theoretical one.

 

Yeah, you can make the playoffs with Tyrod.

 

And be a fodder team. Same as Houston, the Fins and the Raiders without Carr were this year. Every year there are three or four fodder teams there, teams without a realistic shot at a title. Being one of those teams IMHO is worse than not making the playoffs. More entertaining maybe, but with pretty much identical title chances. I'd rather have the better draft pick than be one of those fodder teams. And they're there, every single year.

 

And not one has ever won a title.

 

And please don't give me the 2007 Giants, because it's nonsense. They had pushed the 16-0 Pats harder than anyone that year, they were peaking, the light had come on for Manning and there were three far worse teams, the 9-7 Redskins featuring Jason Campbell behind center, the 9-7 Bucs with Jeff Garcia calling signals, and the 10-6 Vince Young-led Titans who scored four points more than they allowed all year. Hell, Dr. Z. predicted in Sports Illustrated before the playoffs began that the Giants would win the Super Bowl. They were not a fodder team. They were a team that had had defensive injuries early in the year that got healthy at the end and had their QB figure it out during the later part of the same season.

Edited January 18, 2017 by Thurman#1

[PolishDave]

The "chance" you have to win a Super Bowl by making the playoffs is often only a mathematical or theoretical one.

 

Yeah, you can make the playoffs with Tyrod.

 

And be a fodder team. Same as Houston, the Fins and the Raiders without Carr were this year. Every year there are three or four fodder teams there, teams without a realistic shot at a title. Being one of those teams IMHO is worse than not making the playoffs. More entertaining maybe, but with pretty much identical title chances. I'd rather have the better draft pick than be one of those fodder teams. And they're there, every single year.

 

And not one has ever won a title.

 

And please don't give me the 2007 Giants, because it's nonsense. They had pushed the 16-0 Pats harder than anyone that year, they were peaking, the light had come on for Manning and there were three far worse teams, the 9-7 Redskins featuring Jason Campbell behind center, the 9-7 Bucs with Jeff Garcia calling signals, and the 10-6 Vince Young-led Titans who scored four points more than they allowed all year. Hell, Dr. Z. predicted in Sports Illustrated before the playoffs began that the Giants would win the Super Bowl. They were not a fodder team. They were a team that had had defensive injuries early in the year that got healthy at the end and had their QB figure it out during the later part of the same season.

 

You're wrong.

 

Wildcard teams that won a Superbowl over the last 20 years:

 

Denver Broncos in 1997, Baltimore Ravens in 2000,Pittsburgh Steelers in 2005, New York Giants in 2007 and Green Bay Packers in 2010.

 

5 times in 20 years = 1/4 of the time or 25%

 

Getting to the playoffs gives you a VERY realistic shot at winning it all.

 

In this age of increased Parity in the NFL - anything can happen once a team makes the playoffs

[jms62]

 

You're wrong.

 

Wildcard teams that won a Superbowl over the last 20 years:

 

Denver Broncos in 1997, Baltimore Ravens in 2000,Pittsburgh Steelers in 2005, New York Giants in 2007 and Green Bay Packers in 2010.

 

5 times in 20 years = 1/4 of the time or 25%

 

Getting to the playoffs gives you a VERY realistic shot at winning it all.

 

In this age of increased Parity in the NFL - anything can happen once a team makes the playoffs

 

You do realize from reading his post he isn't open to debate and he will answer any responses with the catch all they were peaking at the right time argument he used on the Giants.

[Big Gun]

 

You're wrong.

 

Wildcard teams that won a Superbowl over the last 20 years:

 

Denver Broncos in 1997, Baltimore Ravens in 2000,Pittsburgh Steelers in 2005, New York Giants in 2007 and Green Bay Packers in 2010.

 

5 times in 20 years = 1/4 of the time or 25%

 

Getting to the playoffs gives you a VERY realistic shot at winning it all.

 

In this age of increased Parity in the NFL - anything can happen once a team makes the playoffs

Common denominator with those teams, good QB, save Dilfer but that Ravens defense was historic and any QB would have won that year on that team. Elway, Roethlisberger, Manning, Rodgers. A level Tyrod could never reach.

[FireChan]

Common denominator with those teams, good QB, save Dilfer but that Ravens defense was historic and any QB would have won that year on that team. Elway, Roethlisberger, Manning, Rodgers. A level Tyrod could never reach.

None of those QB's played particularly well when they won.