The Deep State War Heats Up :ph34r:

[Deranged Rhino]

 

[Buffalo_Gal]

{waves hands wildly} Me! Me! Me!! 👋 👋 👋

 

 

[Deranged Rhino]

7 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

{waves hands wildly} Me! Me! Me!! 👋 👋 👋

 

 

 

Maybe even better: 

 

 

[Buffalo_Gal]

1 minute ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

Maybe even better: 

 

 

E.P.I.C.

 

[Hedge]

23 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

Maybe even better: 

 

 

 

😄

 

 

[WideNine]

On 9/17/2020 at 9:07 AM, Deranged Rhino said:

 

 

And here's a thread from Cleveland on the first story (more to the thread than these two)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Man o' man would P T Barnum and H G Wells have a field day with Americans today. Watch the lemmings chase after every fake Russian story.

 

https://globalsecurityreview.com/russia-manipulated-u-s-voters-social-media/

https://www.rand.org/blog/2017/07/russian-information-warfare-a-reality-that-needs-a.html

https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Journals/Military-Review/English-Edition-Archives/July-August-2020/Wilhelm-Russian-Framework/

 

So lets think about this, is this really the GOP Hail Mary play? Are they really willing to use Russian propaganda that Sleepy Joe Biden is some kind of criminal mastermind or commie? Yeah...... that tracks😂🤣😂👌

 

And before folks go there, I have been a registered Republican and Independent. I have never been a Democrat. At this point honestly I am kind of agnostic bordering on unaffiliated. The Dems like to throw money at social and infra problems like magic fairy dust and hope they go away, the GOP likes to throw money and concessions at big business and think they are benevolent and that any of it will trickle down to the little people. We're screwed at either polar bipartisan end and the best strategy with the least bodies on the highway is probably somewhere in the middle.

 

Regarding the alleged smoking gun Biden "call"  introduced by Russian Operative Derkach.

https://www.ksat.com/news/politics/2020/09/12/biden-audio-first-shared-by-russian-agent-thrives-online/

 

The call did happen, but context is critically important. The corruption theories have already been discredited because Shokin did not have any active investigation into any of Hunter Biden's work and because Joe Biden, in seeking Shokin's firing, was representing the official documented position of the Obama administration, Western allies, and many in Ukraine who perceived the prosecutor as soft on corruption. At the time, Shokin was facing widespread criticism for failing to prosecute snipers who opened fire on Kyiv protesters.

 

Not enough?  OK, from Trump's own Treasury Secretary appointee after vetting intelligence reports:

 

“Andrii Derkach and other Russian agents employ manipulation and deceit to attempt to influence elections in the United States and elsewhere around the world,” Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin said Thursday in a statement announcing sanctions against the pro-Russian Ukrainian lawmaker and three Russian employees of a “troll farm” that generates divisive social media content for U.S. consumption.

 

Derkach had been working with Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani and One America News network, which Trump has come to favor in the past year, to push the falsehood that the Democratic presidential nominee acted improperly when, as vice president, he worked to remove a corrupt Ukrainian prosecutor, supposedly to protect a company his son, Hunter, had been working for. In fact, Joe Biden was advancing the consensus goal of the United States, the European Union, the International Monetary Fund and others to rid Ukraine of corruption.

 

 

Why is it so easy for the masses to believe in some amorphous government deep state, when the truth is right in plain site.

 

Putin wants 4 more years of Trump and 4 more years of chaos and mismanagement in the US. A weaker US at home, means a weaker US abroad. Trump provides that because he is a conman and a hack. Never in the history of the US has an active President had so many hand-picked staff defections and amazingly they all say almost the same exact thing, "Trump does not care about anyone but himself and he is unfit for the office of the Presidency". Must be the deep state, Illuminati, or whatever got to all of them......Puh-leeese.

 

I grew up in Trump's back yard and he was always a con man and a hack. Daddy handed him a pile of cash and properties and it lead to just a long string of messy bankruptcies, poorly concealed affairs with his porn stars and high-class hookers, messy divorces, money laundering, ties to the Gotti family, constantly dodging one indictment after the next, he was kind of a running joke for folks in Jersey wondering when he would finally get locked up.

 

Then the hillbilly noobs watch The Apprentice and think this clown is some kind of financial genius, but he is just running the long con on folks and God-forbid the law actually gets his tax returns for the 500 LLCs he has created as shell companies attached to his properties well-positioned entities to launder money from who knows where - I am thinking a significant chunk from Russian oligarchs who have not been able to invest elsewhere due to the Magnitsky Act. Could the money trail lead to the "Kompromat" that could shed light on the inexplicable boot-licking that Trump does around Putin - I have no idea, but would like to see where the money leads.

 

 

"Trump's lawyers told the 2nd US Circuit Court of Appeals that without a stay it would result in "quintessential irreparable harm" by allowing the subpoena for the records to go ahead."

 

His first order of business as President was to look into the legality of pardoning himself. What kind of person does that? Think folks, I know it hurts sometimes, but you have to exercise that grey matter. Why would someone go to such great lengths to hide his financial dealings, why would they cause him harm, and why has every President been transparent about their taxes and business dealings except Trump?

 

And before the usual left wing nonsense I am as conservative as they come, and I am not upset that we have more conservative justices, yet I cannot turn a blind eye to criminal mismanagement of our government or ignore the push of foreign influence campaigns. To be fair China would prefer Biden as Trump has been tougher on them, but China is better at stealing tech than using social media for propaganda. They are light years behind Russia, but I would expect them to learn pretty quickly seeing how effective Russia has been with it.

 

Either way, folks need to get smarter around critical thinking and research when feeding at the social media rumor trough - you all make it too easy. I speak from real experience as I have actually discovered a few fake Facebook accounts in my time and have had them closed down. I have to say that Facebook in the past moved at a glacial pace and they need to step up their game. Trolls just need a few idiots with valid accounts to spread misinformation - basically human bots.

 

The FB accounts were originally opened in places like Tajikistan using hijacked photos for the accounts (used online face finding tools to verify). The accounts were just a shell with almost no history or personal information and apparently used pictures of folks Russians felt would appeal to "real Americans" you know what I mean; Folks that looked like they came out of a truck commercial on NFL Sunday; a blue-collar looking white dude wearing flannel standing next to his truck with his dog, wife, and 2.5 kids.

 

These were part of a Russian troll farm that were posting on sites spreading rumors, hate, and distrust regarding 2nd amendment rights - and it is not hard to get Americans to hate on each other. It is really quite easy to do.

 

I think it would benefit folks greatly if they were actually less lazy and spent less time reading social media snippets they think are "news" and unsubstantiated tweets and read something substantive, read the actual bi-partisan intelligence reports before they go through the spin cycle in DC, jettison the emotional charged garbage, and steer clear of the ridiculous conspiracy theories. 

.

 

Edited September 18, 2020 by WideNine

[Buffalo_Gal]

5 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

I think it would benefit folks greatly if they were actually less lazy and spent less time reading social media snippets they think are "news" and unsubstantiated tweets and read something substantive, read the actual bi-partisan intelligence reports before they go through the spin cycle in DC, jettison the emotional charged garbage, and steer clear of the ridiculous conspiracy theories.

 

You might wanna take your own advice there, sport. 🙂


 

[Deranged Rhino]

53 minutes ago, WideNine said:

Why is it so easy for the masses to believe in some amorphous government deep state, when the truth is right in plain site.

 

It takes a lot of cognitive dissonance to write this sentence above, and then follow it up immediately with this: 

 

53 minutes ago, WideNine said:

Putin wants 4 more years of Trump and 4 more years of chaos and mismanagement in the US. A weaker US at home, means a weaker US abroad. Trump provides that because he is a conman and a hack.

 

The facts and evidence -- actual evidence and facts -- aren't on your side with this statement. Trump has: 

 

* Made the US energy independent -- which hurts Russia since it's basically a gas station masquerading as a nation

* Decimated the financial networks of Russia's client states of Iran/Hezbollah/Hamas, all the while forming an alliance which lessens Russia's influence in the region

* Inflicted 100% casualties on a brigade of Russian mercs just for amassing near a US/Allied position in Syria

* Armed the Ukrainian resistance with actual fighting tools rather than blankets

* In the process of moving troops from Germany to Poland

 

But sure. The rest of what you wrote isn't hot nonsense  

Edited September 18, 2020 by Deranged Rhino

[Deranged Rhino]

 

[WideNine]

40 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

You might wanna take your own advice there, sport. 🙂


 

 

What conspiracy theory are you referring to of mine.

 

That there are Russians?

 

That they use misinformation and social media to spread it?

 

That Russia prefers Trump over Biden?

 

The extremely redacted 3-year bipartisan ( that means GOP and Democrat, Left and Right, Conservative and Liberal, pick your preference) Senate Intelligence report made that clear: https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/press/rubio-statement-senate-intel-release-volume-5-bipartisan-russia-report

 

“What the Committee did find however is very troubling. We found irrefutable evidence of Russian meddling...

 

 

“Now, as we head towards the 2020 elections, China and Iran have joined Russia in attempts to disrupt our democracy, exacerbate societal divisions, and sow doubts about the legitimacy and integrity of our institutions, our electoral process and our republic. Interesting..... because isn't this exactly what Don and ol' Bill Barr are helping them to do over and over again with their messaging?

 

“We must do better in 2020. The Committee’s five reports detail the signs and symptoms of that interference and show us how to protect campaigns, state and local entities, our public discourse, and our democratic institutions. I join with Vice Chairman Warner in urging everyone — our colleagues, those in the Administration, state and local elections officials, the media, and the American public — to read them and take the recommendations seriously.”

 

I simply pointed out that you folks were forwarding the exact rumor accredited to Derkach and he has since been censored by our Treasury for being an active part of the Russian influence campaign. Is it that folks prefer an echo chamber for spreading rumors that have already been discredited?

 

The only theory I did propose was not a conspiracy theory, rather just a financial theory that Trump's over-abundant LLCs (500 of them) tied to his many property holdings may well turn out to be a money laundering and tax evasion scheme. This is a theory based on how Manifort operated, the unnecessary complexity which closely resembles shell corporations, and how hard Trump is trying to hide his financial records. I admitted that it was a theory and I am looking forward to his financial disclosures once he is done squirming around like a guilty weasel with all his appeals.

 

They will come out eventually and they will likely paint another clear picture of criminal conduct that the ignorant masses will dismiss and ignore. For my part, I will take Sleepy Joe this year over Don the Con, and hope the GOP finds someone with a shred of decency that I can get behind next election.

 

 

 

 

[Tiberius]

15 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

What conspiracy theory are you referring to of mine.

 

That there are Russians?

 

That they use misinformation and social media to spread it?

 

That Russia prefers Trump over Biden?

 

The extremely redacted 3-year bipartisan ( that means GOP and Democrat, Left and Right, Conservative and Liberal, pick your preference) Senate Intelligence report made that clear: https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/press/rubio-statement-senate-intel-release-volume-5-bipartisan-russia-report

 

“What the Committee did find however is very troubling. We found irrefutable evidence of Russian meddling...

 

 

“Now, as we head towards the 2020 elections, China and Iran have joined Russia in attempts to disrupt our democracy, exacerbate societal divisions, and sow doubts about the legitimacy and integrity of our institutions, our electoral process and our republic. Interesting..... because isn't this exactly what Don and ol' Bill Barr are helping them to do over and over again with their messaging?

 

“We must do better in 2020. The Committee’s five reports detail the signs and symptoms of that interference and show us how to protect campaigns, state and local entities, our public discourse, and our democratic institutions. I join with Vice Chairman Warner in urging everyone — our colleagues, those in the Administration, state and local elections officials, the media, and the American public — to read them and take the recommendations seriously.”

 

I simply pointed out that you folks were forwarding the exact rumor accredited to Derkach and he has since been censored by our Treasury for being an active part of the Russian influence campaign. Is it that folks prefer an echo chamber for spreading rumors that have already been discredited?

 

The only theory I did propose was not a conspiracy theory, rather just a financial theory that Trump's over-abundant LLCs (500 of them) tied to his many property holdings may well turn out to be a money laundering and tax evasion scheme. This is a theory based on how Manifort operated, the unnecessary complexity which closely resembles shell corporations, and how hard Trump is trying to hide his financial records. I admitted that it was a theory and I am looking forward to his financial disclosures once he is done squirming around like a guilty weasel with all his appeals.

 

They will come out eventually and they will likely paint another clear picture of criminal conduct that the ignorant masses will dismiss and ignore. For my part, I will take Sleepy Joe this year over Don the Con, and hope the GOP finds someone with a shred of decency that I can get behind next election.

 

 

 

 

Biden is going all out to win! Good! Think he might murder a few few scum bags along the way? 

 

 

[Buffalo_Gal]

23 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

They will come out eventually and they will likely paint another clear picture of criminal conduct that the ignorant masses will dismiss and ignore. For my part, I will take Sleepy Joe this year over Don the Con, and hope the GOP finds someone with a shred of decency that I can get behind next election.

 

You do not think Joe Biden is has engaged in criminal conduct? M'kay. Since you are so uninformed, start at with thread,  move on to this thread, and continue on reading here. You will find him an active member of the soft coup against President Trump, a full participant in the *election (re: coup) in  the Ukraine (for which Hunter ran out with mucho dinero), and a willing participant in selling  the US out to China (for which Hunter ran out with mucho dinero). To make it easy on yourself, read the government documents only.

And, to make it crystal clear to you in Creepy Joe's words, here he is bragging about his work in the Ukraine:

 

Note: I cannot answer your points unless you stop babbling and start making sense.


 

[BillsFanNC]

5 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

You do not think Joe Biden is has engaged in criminal conduct? M'kay. Since you are so uninformed, start at with thread,  move on to this thread, and continue on reading here. You will find him an active member of the soft coup against President Trump, a full participant in the *election (re: coup) in  the Ukraine (for which Hunter ran out with mucho dinero), and a willing participant in selling  the US out to China (for which Hunter ran out with mucho dinero). To make it easy on yourself, read the government documents only.

And, to make it crystal clear to you in Creepy Joe's words, here he is bragging about his work in the Ukraine:

 

Note: I cannot answer your points unless you stop babbling and start making sense.


 

 

You can walk someone through all the government documents and evidence and maybe even get them to acknowledge some malfeasance,  but it will matter not,  in the end it's always about #orangemanbad.

[Deranged Rhino]

 

 

(this will make things nuttier than they already were going to be)

[WideNine]

 

 

 

 

Quote

The facts and evidence -- actual evidence and facts -- aren't on your side with this statement. Trump has: 

 

* Made the US energy independent -- which hurts Russia since it's basically a gas station masquerading as a nation

 

So "facts and evidence" is what you want?

The US was already well on its way to energy or oil independence long before Trump tried to falsely claim credit for any of it. If anything, of the oil we do import from Russia it has seen an increase during Trumps tenure in the oval office.

 

https://www.eia.gov/petroleum/imports/companylevel/archive/

By the end of 2016 we had imported 163,375 barrels of oil from Russia. By the end of 2019 we were importing 196,339 barrels from Russia.

 

As of 2014, the United States was the world's third largest producer of crude oil, after Saudi Arabia and Russia, and second-largest exporter of refined products, after Russia. In November 2019, the United States became a net exporter of all oil products, including both refined petroleum products and crude oil. 

 

By 2016 the US was already between 86% and 91% energy self-sufficient. https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/us-energy-facts/  By ramping up shale oil production and natural gas extraction the US has proven it can easily cover the rest and as we are consuming less gas as a nation, we are exporting more. Better CAFE standards with hybrid and electric technologies will further that independence. That is why Teslas are cool and the oil and energy investment sector is suck and will continue to suck. But you right that Russia's GDP is basically Oil/Gas and export of military equipment.

 

Quote

* Decimated the financial networks of Russia's client states of Iran/Hezbollah/Hamas, all the while forming an alliance which lessens Russia's influence in the region

- I would agree that the Trump foreign policy (lead initially by Bolton who found Trump repugnant and now by Pompeo) was more hawkish towards Iran. None of our administrations have been openly friendly with Iran since the Iranian US embassy hostage crisis and the added bonus of having Hezbollah bomb our Marine barracks in Lebanon in 83 killing 241 US personnel. That is why the Iran Contra affair involving a lot of GOP icons funneling weapons to Iran was such a black eye for the party (Bill Barr was in the middle of getting everyone off the hook back then - interesting history if you care to look it up). I thought Obama's foreign policy was indecisive and his administration ceded too much to get the nuclear deal with Iran.

 

Not sure if I think any of this limits Russia's influence in the region, they still sell arms like crazy to the Iranians and provide all the equipment and logistics for Iranian oil exports. They are selling their SAM S-400's like hot cakes all over the region and those have to be connected into a fairly comprehensive Russian weapons package. They have increased their footprint in Syria, arms to Turkey, and in the Baltic by seizing the naval base in Ukraine. All we are doing now is cozying up to Arab states who are dubious actors whose Sunni and Wahabbist version of Islamic extreemism were responsible for 9/11 and the worst you see from Pakistan and Afghanistan religious terrorism and pitting them against Iran's equally bad Shia extremists and using them in a proxy war to no discernible end other than it may weaken both sides.

 

I would never consider selling our best military tech like our f-35 to any of those countries (including Israel) because they always end up with China or Russia getting their hands on them and reverse engineering years of US military tech.

 

 

Quote

* Inflicted 100% casualties on a brigade of Russian mercs just for amassing near a US/Allied position in Syria

-  These events make for good headlines, but pretty certain they do not amount to an actual policy position towards Russia by the US or Trump in particular. Our military sets up secure perimeters/buffer zones and is very good about letting Russia know about them to avoid "misunderstandings". Russia likes to test to see if we are really committed to those boundaries and using mercs is how they Russia applies deniability. They test reaction times, response levels, and monitor military transmissions when they do those operations, the same way they have been probing our air defenses, etc... A Russian jet was shot down by Turkey a few years back during the conflict as it was doing something similar flying in Turkish air space. Turkey and Russia shrugged off the affair and are now buds again discussing closer military alliances.

 

In the process of securing the promise of getting our troops out of Syria Trump effectively abandoned our Kurdish allies to the hammer and anvil of Syria and Turkey. Not something any of us can be terribly proud of, but we have a bit of a history abandoning allies that sucks. I never wanted us in Syria to begin with, but thought if we did go in it would have be an effort that was all-in, secure the ports, with blockades to deny Russia any footholds to resupply Assad's forces. We went in like a timid country that was tired of wars - totally understandable, but not going to amount to a whole lot if the goal was regime change.

 

Russia does overemphasizes its gains as that area is a hot mess to try to manage profitably - a good assessment here:

https://carnegieendowment.org/2019/10/31/russia-in-middle-east-jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none-pub-80233

 

Quote

 

* Armed the Ukrainian resistance with actual fighting tools rather than blankets

- I have heard this spin, but there is a lot of Trump political spin on this as getting into a proxy war with Russia is a bit dicey: By March 2015, the US had committed more than $120 million in security assistance for Ukraine and had pledged an additional $75 million worth of equipment including UAVs, counter-mortar radars, night vision devices and medical supplies, according to the Pentagon's Defense Security Cooperation Agency. That assistance also included some 230 armored Humvee vehicles.

Trump appears to be echoing a critique leveled at the Obama administration by the late Republican Sen. John McCain. "The Ukrainians are being slaughtered and we're sending blankets and meals," McCain said in 2015. "Blankets don't do well against Russian tanks.". I recall that Trump hated McCain.

While it never provided lethal aid, many of the items that the Obama administration did provide were seen as critical to Ukraine's military. Part of the $250 million assistance package that the Trump administration announced (then froze and later unfroze) included many of the same items that were provided under Obama, including medical equipment, night vision gear and counter-artillery radar. The Senate did finally approve anti-tank javelin weapons late in 2017 which was a good compromise tool in regards to lethal weapon sales. Reminded me a lot of our Stinger missile provisioning to Afghanistan to check Russian air dominance when those Taliban-friendly Mujahideen forces were sort of on our side (the enemy of my enemy is my friend) .

 

* In the process of moving troops from Germany to Poland

- Well a few facts about Trump's claims and NATO. 

Trump falsely said that the amount other NATO member countries spent on defense “was really heading in the wrong direction — three years ago was heading down.” Before Trump took office, NATO Europe and Canada had increased defense spending in 2015 and 2016.

He also claimed that “a lot” of countries are “delinquent” in their payments. But countries make their own decisions on what percentage of their gross domestic product to spend on their own defense. They don’t owe NATO money if they spend less than other countries choose to do.

 

Germany has 34,500 NATO troops, I believe 1000 of them have been reassigned to Poland where we already rotate about 4500 troops. My thoughts are that Germany is an economic powerhouse and can afford to commit more euros to meet the 2% GDP obligation they set for NATO troop presence, but this was more grandstanding for Trump's interviews on Fox than anything really substantive that affects Russia.

 

 

But sure. The rest of what you wrote isn't hot nonsense  

- Whatever

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by WideNine

[WideNine]

50 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

 

(this will make things nuttier than they already were going to be)

 

 

We do not have to agree on anything really, but yeah I agree - this is going to cause the crap show in DC to go off the deep end or ....deeper end.

 

 

 

[Deranged Rhino]

19 minutes ago, WideNine said:

I would agree that the Trump foreign policy (lead initially by Bolton who found Trump repugnant and now by Pompeo) was more hawkish towards Iran.

 

I'll take these a point at a time: 

 

* Trump's foreign policy was not initially led by Bolton, it was originally led by General Flynn on the campaign and then Flynn/Pompeo during the transition. Followed by Tillerson. Then Bolton. But Pompeo was running point on a lot from his role as head of CIA. So you're already off to a poor start in terms of accuracy and "facts". 

 

19 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

None of our administrations have been openly friendly with Iran since the Iranian US embassy hostage crisis and the added bonus of having Hezbollah bomb our Marine barracks in Lebanon in 83 killing 241 US personnel.

 

* This is patently incorrect. 44's administration was openly aiding Iran throughout their 8 years, even while Iranian proxies (and IIRC) were killing US soldiers in Iraq. Not only did the Obama administration illegally disclose a classified cyber-weapon to the Iranians (Stuxnet) as a carrot during the negotiations of their failed nuclear deal --pinning the "leak" on General Cartwright who was found guilty, then pardoned by Obama, for his crime. This move sold out our ally (Israel), and strengthened Iran's nuclear ambition. 

 

But that was just the start of 44's administration being friendly with Iran. There was also Obama's decision to wave of DEA and FBI agents from closing down Hezbollah trafficking routes into this country, again as a carrot for the nuclear deal which was doomed to fail before it was ever signed: 

https://www.politico.com/interactives/2017/obama-hezbollah-drug-trafficking-investigation/

 

Quote

Not sure if I think any of this limits Russia's influence in the region, they still sell arms like crazy to the Iranians and provide all the equipment and logistics for Iranian oil exports.

 

* Hezbollah and Hamas -- two of Russia's largest clients -- are teetering on financial ruin. The Mullahs are on their way out the door. ISIS is gone, but the Arab world is aligning together with Israel and against Russia's other client, Syria, in addition to Iran in the region. 

 

You're 100% wrong on your analysis so far. 

 

19 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 These events make for good headlines, but pretty certain they do not amount to an actual policy position towards Russia by the US or Trump in particular. 

 

* This is 100% incorrect. This marked an express change in the Rules of Engagement for US forces in Syria. Under Obama those ROE's were strict to the point of limiting the troops' abilities to defend themselves properly. Trump made it clear that would no longer fly, and Mattis (at that time) used that to instill the fear of God into the Russian ghost soldiers in Syria. Not to mention what it did to changing the pace and tenor of the entire Syrian civil war.

 

19 minutes ago, WideNine said:

In the process of securing the promise of getting our troops out of Syria Trump effectively abandoned our Kurdish allies to the hammer and anvil of Syria and Turkey.

 

* This shows you're a victim of MSM misinformation. "Trump abandoned the Kurds!" were the headlines. Only, that didn't happen. The US left forces behind (special operation forces) and worked with the Kurds. Turkey took it on the chin, not the other way around. 

 

 

That's just one block of analysis you got not just a little wrong, but all the way wrong. That's not meant as an attack, you are willing to have an honest conversation about it all, and that's great  It's just meant to prompt you to look a bit closer at some it.

Edited September 19, 2020 by Deranged Rhino

[Deranged Rhino]

Mitch is promising a vote before the election... 

 

[WideNine]

5 hours ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

I'll take these a point at a time: 

 

* Trump's foreign policy was not initially led by Bolton, it was originally led by General Flynn on the campaign and then Flynn/Pompeo during the transition. Followed by Tillerson. Then Bolton. But Pompeo was running point on a lot from his role as head of CIA. So you're already off to a poor start in terms of accuracy and "facts". 

 

OK, I REALLY DO appreciate these reminders of Trump's "skill" at filling positions around him with folks that end up either getting criminally charged or running away screaming - that will learn me

 

So Flynn lasted how long? 22 days? Then forced into resignation, so not sure if he did much more than move into a new office. Can we say, Wax-on Wax off.

 

And Tillerson - Ol' Rex had a tough job, but was not the most likable guy. He called Trump a "Moron" (pretty accurate) when he was trying to handle delicate Asian diplomacy and Trump was tweeting all his diplomacy efforts down the drain. He lasted for just a year as Secretary of State another unbelievably historically short tenure for that position, but everyone Trump picks are great till they aint. I have read somewhere that high-turnover is usually an issue of poor or toxic management - hmmm.

 

What else did Rex have to say...

“What was challenging for me coming from the disciplined, highly process-oriented ExxonMobil corporation,” Tillerson said, was “to go to work for a man who is pretty undisciplined, doesn’t like to read, doesn’t read briefing reports, doesn’t like to get into the details of a lot of things, but rather just kind of says, ‘This is what I believe.’ ” 

 

“So often, the president would say, ‘Here’s what I want to do, and here’s how I want to do it,’ " Tillerson said, and I would have to say to him, ‘Mr. President, I understand what you want to do, but you can’t do it that way. It violates the law.’ ”

 

Regarding the deal: 

Since the JCPOA deal with Iran was so front-loaded with the release of a bunch of frozen assets they (Iran) had already reaped the benefits of the deal and Tillerson thought that re-certifying the existing deal would not involve any more substantial concessions and it was more of a win for international signatories to work on enforcement. Trump famously wanted to dismantle or at least exit the deal (some say after he saw proof from Israel that Iran was finding ways to cheat) meanwhile the IAEA and the nations that are still a part of the deal say that Iran is still holding to the original bargain.

 

Whether the original bargain was flawed is another debate... I think most folks involved would admit that it was only a stalling move, a tar pit on Iran's nuclear aspirations and regardless they will continue to develop in covert till the deal sunsets and then ramp up quickly and openly.

 

 

Quote

 

* This is patently incorrect. 44's administration was openly aiding Iran throughout their 8 years, even while Iranian proxies (and IIRC) were killing US soldiers in Iraq. Not only did the Obama administration illegally disclose a classified cyber-weapon to the Iranians (Stuxnet) as a carrot during the negotiations of their failed nuclear deal --pinning the "leak" on General Cartwright who was found guilty, then pardoned by Obama, for his crime. This move sold out our ally (Israel), and strengthened Iran's nuclear ambition. 

 

So are we equating leaks to openly aiding? - because that is truly a stretch. Leaks suck, but I would not equate them to collusion - just a ship that needs to run tighter.

 

The timeline is off too if we are talking about openly aiding Iran. Bush initiated a concept of cyber attacks against Iran vs open conventional war or Israeli air strikes. The Obama administration continued that concept and pushed it to be completed.

The earliest hints of STUXNET were actually ferreted out by private security firms that noticed an unusual virus that was circulating, but concentrated in Iran - July 2010

By September 2010 they had started taking the virus apart and studying it and was impressed with how it was designed to attack very specific controllers used for centrifugal uranium enrichment. There were nearly 150 articles around this time about this and the British newspaper, The Independent ran a story with the title, "Has the West declared cyber war on Iran?"

By October and November 2010 the Christian Science Monitor speculated that the US and Israel had teamed up to build it.

By January 2011 the New York Times David Sanger ran the story that confirmed the already spread rumors that the US and Israel had teamed up to create a virus designed to sabotage the Iranian Nuclear program. Sanger did not need anyone to leak the story, but did get details from James Cartwright that basically confirmed the US involvement in an act of war and quoted confidential meeting dialogue - that is not a trivial offense. Our government sucks at keeping secrets, that is the case with a lot of administrations, but it is only getting worse with how easy it is to use electronic communication. He got off with a slap on the wrist, like a lot of folks in DC do.

 

Per Sanger, "I spent a year working the story from the bottom up, and then went to the administration and told them what I had,". Then they had to make some decisions about how much they want to talk about it. All that you read about this being deliberate leaks out of the White House, it wasn't my experience."

 

Sanger underscored that the start of the story came when the worm spread out of Iran and was detected by computer security companies around the world. The time line of newspaper activity confirms the intense level of interest in STUXNET within the cyber community. The time line also shows that more than a year earlier, in 2011, a team of New York Times reporters had fleshed out and reported many of the details in the 2012 story with no apparent help from the Obama administration.

 

 

 

 

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But that was just the start of 44's administration being friendly with Iran. There was also Obama's decision to wave of DEA and FBI agents from closing down Hezbollah trafficking routes into this country, again as a carrot for the nuclear deal which was doomed to fail before it was ever signed: 

https://www.politico.com/interactives/2017/obama-hezbollah-drug-trafficking-investigation/

This I wont refute, because I do believe that they were turning a blind eye to a lot of what Iran was doing in an effort to push the JCPOA. I don't equate it with "being friendly" with Iran as that is just nonsense. If you want to say it was a politically motivated move to ignore something to get a highly visible deal done, I could go along with that.
 

 

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* Hezbollah and Hamas -- two of Russia's largest clients -- are teetering on financial ruin. The Mullahs are on their way out the door. ISIS is gone, but the Arab world is aligning together with Israel and against Russia's other client, Syria, in addition to Iran in the region. 

 

I would not say that those are Russia's largest clients - based on what? Russia sells a lot of weapons 76% of China's weapons imports are from Russia, and 56% of India's. All told the US still holds the vast majority of that market as our exports were 76% higher than Russia's and we are the world's #1 and #2 suppliers of things that go boom.

Lebanon is weary of the Hezbollah presence and I think we are getting better at tracking and freezing assets and so-called charities that support terrorist organizations. I am not ready to believe that Israel and most Arab nations will normalize their relations long-term. Israel is actually well-positioned to lend assistance to Arab nations who are growing increasingly alarmed at Iran's expanding influence in the region. I cannot see a near century of hostilities being swept away that quickly, but perhaps they can grow the diplomatic relationship from "necessary evil" to "normal". Jordan has had normal diplomatic relations with Israel for a long time.

 

 

You're 100% wrong on your analysis so far. 

Something is wrong with the scoring here. I like debate, but this is the problem with folks these days, they cannot envision a discussion where it is not black and white, it is "I am 100% right and you are 100% wrong".

 

The reality is that the world is full of shades of grey. No more so than when you are talking about politicians and their actions.
 

 

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* This is 100% incorrect. This marked an express change in the Rules of Engagement for US forces in Syria. Under Obama those ROE's were strict to the point of limiting the troops' abilities to defend themselves properly. Trump made it clear that would no longer fly, and Mattis (at that time) used that to instill the fear of God into the Russian ghost soldiers in Syria. Not to mention what it did to changing the pace and tenor of the entire Syrian civil war.

Here we go with the 100% again and my mind could not help but queue up the WWII style scratchy propaganda soundtrack and "go get'em boys" when I read about us putting the fear of God into those Ruskies

 

 

Nothing has changed regarding the Rules of Engagement with Syrian troops as the ROE in place has been around since 2005 and were unchanged in the 2016 operational handbook that give our troops the right to defend themselves when an adversary demonstrates hostile intent.

 

What is hostile intent you ask?

 

In an extract of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Instruction, Standing Rules of Engagement/Standing Rules for the Use of Force by U.S. Forces, CJCSI 3121.01B, 13 June 2005, which is still in the U.S. Army’s Operational Law Handbook (2016) “hostile intent” is defined as follows:

The threat of imminent use of force against the United States, U.S. forces or other designated persons or property. It also includes the threat of force to preclude or impede the mission and/or duties of U.S. forces, including the recovery of U.S. personnel or vital USG property.  

 

Regarding “imminent use of force,” the instruction says this:

The determination of whether the use of force against U.S. forces is imminent will be based on an assessment of all facts and circumstances known to U.S. forces at the time and may be made at any level.  Imminent does not necessarily mean immediate or instantaneous.  

 

Obama was however criticized for emphasizing the avoidance of civilian casualties and extremist elements in Syria had used human shields on occasion and took advantage of this. This is nothing new in the Middle East where human shields and mounting military equipment on hospitals and embedding troops in areas populated by civilians is almost their standard approach to curbing US air and munitions tactical dominance - it is a thing they do and America takes a lot of heat when we screw up and blow up a wedding or such.

 

* This shows you're a victim of MSM misinformation. "Trump abandoned the Kurds!" were the headlines. Only, that didn't happen. The US left forces behind (special operation forces) and worked with the Kurds. Turkey took it on the chin, not the other way around. 

Simply not true. We abandoned the Kurds or mostly abandoned them much as I expected the US to do at some point regardless if it was a GOP or Dem lead administration.

 

Unfortunately, Turkey is just more strategically important and Turkey hates the Kurds. Heck it was the US that helped Turkey capture Ocalan the PKK leader and it was rumored that we did it only because we were getting pressure from Turkey regarding continued used of their Incirlik air base while prosecuting our war in Iraq. Would not be the first time we screwed the Kurds.

 

Reports from Washington back when we pulled our troops out:

 

Update: Trump offered more of the same fare later Wednesday. He was asked whether abandoning the Kurds might damage U.S. efforts to forge future alliances, and he responded, “No, it won’t. Alliances are very easy.” He added that the Kurds “didn’t help us in the Second War War, they didn’t help us with Normandy.”

 

At this point, Trump’s comments indicate how he feels about protecting the Kurds, and they confirm the worst fears of Republicans who fear Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has pulled one over on the United States. Trump may yet be persuaded to take a harder line against Turkey going after the Kurds, but his lack of interest in preventing it on the front end is likely to have major consequences. For a president whose unwieldy tenure has been controversial but who has rarely, if ever, faced a blood-on-his-hands allegation, he may not be able to avoid that much longer.

 

“The U.S. is abandoning our ally the Kurds, who fought ISIS on the ground and helped protect the U.S. homeland,”  the No. 3-ranking House Republican, Liz Cheney (Wyo.), said Wednesday, using another name for the Islamic State.

So the Kurds, in an act of pure survival against a superior-armed Turkey, turn to the only allies they could find - Russia and Assad (the irony):

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/13/world/middleeast/syria-turkey-invasion-isis.html

By February of this year:
https://abcnews.go.com/International/kurds-us-left-reporters-notebook/story?id=68966991

 

 

 

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That's just one block of analysis you got not just a little wrong, but all the way wrong. That's not meant as an attack, you are willing to have an honest conversation about it all, and that's great  It's just meant to prompt you to look a bit closer at some it.
 

 

 

 

 

You also "forgot" about your claim that Trump ushered in the age of American energy independence.... and my rebuttal, but heck there is a good argument that we may have covered enough for one day.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by WideNine

[WideNine]

5 hours ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

You do not think Joe Biden is has engaged in criminal conduct? M'kay. Since you are so uninformed, start at with thread,  move on to this thread, and continue on reading here. You will find him an active member of the soft coup against President Trump, a full participant in the *election (re: coup) in  the Ukraine (for which Hunter ran out with mucho dinero), and a willing participant in selling  the US out to China (for which Hunter ran out with mucho dinero). To make it easy on yourself, read the government documents only.

And, to make it crystal clear to you in Creepy Joe's words, here he is bragging about his work in the Ukraine:

 

Note: I cannot answer your points unless you stop babbling and start making sense.


 

 

 

 

 

Sure Biden pushed for Shokin to be fired this is neither news or scandal -  it was an on-going policy decision as part of anti-corruption efforts in Ukraine

The US, the IMF, and the EU all wanted to see Shokin removed in Ukraine as part of their anti-corruption efforts. This had zero to do with anything Hunter Biden was doing:

 

Once again, this misinformation regarding Biden came from Andriy Derkach and it is all about context.

 

Andriy Derkach —described by the Treasury Department as “an active Russian agent for over a decade, maintaining close connections with the Russian Intelligence Services”—stands accused of orchestrating a “covert influence campaign centered on cultivating false and unsubstantiated narratives” about the Bidens via “edited audio tapes and other unsupported information,” which launched “corruption investigations in both Ukraine and the United States designed to culminate prior to election day.”

 

 

So who was the so-called "top prosecutor" victim in Ukraine (Shokin)? Well hardly a victim: 

 

He had been identified by the Obama administration, and US allies as part of the corruption problem in the Ukraine. His dismissal had been sought not just by Mr. Biden, but also by others in the Obama administration, as well other Western governments and international lenders. Mr. Shokin had been repeatedly accused of turning a blind eye to corruption in his office and among the Ukrainian political elite, and criticized for failing to bring corruption cases.

 

He was hated by the Ukrainian people as a symbol of the old corrupt regime. There were protests for his removal and even an attempted assassination. He would not prosecute snipers who opened fire on demonstrators in Kiev, he slow-walked investigations in the attempt to put pressure on individuals for bribes. The investigation into Burisma Holdings and its oligarch founder, Mykola Zlochevsky started in 2012 and drug on as Shokin slow-walked the investigation using the threat of prosecution of Zlochevsky and Burisma to solicit bribes.

 

 

The Shokin way: 

 

On 16 February 2016, Shokin submitted a letter of resignation, although the next day an official of the prosecution office stated, "As far as I know he has taken a paid leave".

 

On 19 February 2016 presidential press secretary Sviatoslav Tsegolko wrote on Twitter that the presidential administration had received an official letter of resignation from Shokin. On 16 March 2016 an official of the prosecution office stated that Shokin had resumed his work. On the same day, his office carried out a raid against one of Ukraine's leading anti-corruption groups, the Anti-Corruption Action Center (AntAC), claiming that it had misappropriated aid money. 

 

AntAC was a frequent critic of the Prosecutor General's Office under Shokin. In one notorious case, two of Shokin's prosecutors were caught with stashes of diamonds, cash and valuables in their homes, likely indicating bribery. Prosecutors from another department of Shokin's office were fired or reassigned when they attempted to bring a prosecution against the so-called "diamond prosecutors".

 

On 28 March, protesters called for Shokin's firing, after his office was authorized by a Kiev court to investigate AntAC. Shokin was formally dismissed in a parliamentary vote on 29 March 2016.

 

The European Union praised Shokin's dismissal due to a "lack of tangible results" of his office's investigations, and also because people in Shokin's office were themselves being investigated. Following his dismissal Shokin went into retirement.

 

The Ukraine investigation into Burisma was opened in 2012 and pertained to events that happened before Joe Biden's son, Hunter Biden joined the board of directors of Burisma Holdings in 2014. US President Donald Trump's subsequent bid to pressure Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to announce an investigation of Joe Biden and dig up dirt in relation to Burisma by withholding crucial Ukrainian aid led to the December 2019 articles of impeachment against Trump.

 

 

Hunter Biden:

 

IMO Hunter Biden screwed up (image wise and greed wise), but did not do anything illegal. It is simply not a good look to be cozying up to Zlochevsky as that guy is likely as crooked as any other oligarch, but Hunter's law firm was hired and the money was good. Unfortunately, I think this is the norm for political favors and posts that get filled with individuals with connections to our government.

 

Hunter Biden had nothing to do with the prior Shokin investigation launched against Burisma and would not have stood anything to gain one way or another by it proceeding or stopping since Shokin was not doing anything but trying to shake Zlochevsky down for bribes. In fact, when Shokin dragged his feet investigating Zlochevsky the Obama administration sought other means to have him investigated regardless of Hunter's role on the board.

 

Although no wrong-doing was found and I doubt any will be, Hunter has been justly criticized by government watchdog groups in the United States and Ukraine for what they characterize as the perception of a conflict of interest of holding a position in a Ukraine business while his father was a part of an anti-corruption task force, and trading on his family name and allowing it to be used to burnish the reputations of Burisma and Mr. Zlochevsky.

 

Hunter finished his tenure with Burisma in 2019.

 

Various Investigations into Zlochevsky have and probably will continued unabated and not sure if they will stop. I am sure there is probably some dirt somewhere in that guys not to distant past. It comes with the oligarch territory.