GG Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 **************** Back on topic ******************** Proof that the USG is secretly paying to keep US software unsafe. That's reckless: https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/839168025517522944/photo/1 CIA developed vulnerabilities in US products and actively worked to keep the holes open... This is damning stuff. You can always join Greenwald in the Brazilian heaven
Deranged Rhino Posted March 7, 2017 Author Posted March 7, 2017 You can always join Greenwald in the Brazilian heaven But the CIA was just doing it's job right? Keeping vulnerabilities open in US products and releasing hacking tools to private contractors and keeping them unclassified in order to do so... That's the CIA's job right? To make it easier for it to spy on US citizens and to make it easier for foreign agents to crack US citizen's tech? What's funny about your quip is it shows how phony your patriotism actually is. You're fine with abuses in power and think anyone who has a problem with it should move to Brazil. Me? I tend to think it's our duty as citizens of this country to be the watchdog for governmental malfeasance and to speak loudly about it when it surfaces.
GG Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 And yet you haven't shown how ordinary citizens have been affected. All you've done is spread fears of what could happen. Which nobody denies. Yes it could happen in an abstract movie script way. Too bad for you that ordinary people are more concerned about the little encroachments on their liberties and wallets caused by the unseen local bureaucrats, who nobody cares about because people like you like to pretend that the Deep State is a bigger problem. It's not. Not even close. That's why the collective response is a big whoop.
Deranged Rhino Posted March 7, 2017 Author Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) And yet you haven't shown how ordinary citizens have been affected. All you've done is spread fears of what could happen. False. This isn't about what could happen... this (CIA overreach) is what's happening. Again, read the documents before trying to argue their importance. It really helps to know what it is you're arguing against... Too bad for you that ordinary people are more concerned about the little encroachments on their liberties and wallets caused by the unseen local bureaucrats, who nobody cares about because people like you like to pretend that the Deep State is a bigger problem. It's not. Not even close. That's why the collective response is a big whoop. Taking issue with a massively funded paramilitary agency overstepping it's legal restrictions while simultaneously coercing tech companies to build vulnerabilities into US products (thus endangering the wallets and welfare of every citizen of our country) doesn't preclude me from caring about other issues. I can walk and chew gum at the same time, as most can. But to dismiss what we are discussing so flippantly -- as you are -- without even doing the basic research for yourself -- as you admit you're doing -- is disturbing. What we're talking about isn't fear mongering. Opening your eyes to the actual reality of how the world works is the opposite of fear mongering. The truth is empowering... if you have the courage to actually look it in the eye rather than try to duck and dodge and dive out of its way. CIA overreach of this magnitude, if left unaddressed, is not just a threat to everyone reading this thread, it's an existential threat to the very foundations of our democracy. But again, it helps to read the material you're dismissing before you dismiss it. Edited March 7, 2017 by Deranged Rhino
GG Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) N, all WL has done is disclosed the tools, neither they nor you have disclosed if and how the CIA have used or abused them. Big difference. Hell, even the source who provided the info to WL wasn't definitive in whether CIA violated laws. They just said they want a public debate on whether the CIA should be allowed to use those tools. Yes, I think wet can all benefit from a public debate about classified programs. Let's start with Pats* cheating. Edited March 7, 2017 by GG
Deranged Rhino Posted March 7, 2017 Author Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) N, all WL has done is disclosed the tools, neither they nor you have disclosed if and how the CIA have used or abused them. Big difference. You're saying this definitively even though you admit to not reading the leaks. This is false. There is evidence of abuse included, the Snowden tweet is an example, and it's just part one of seven more drops to come. This is all in addition to the fact CIA is not chartered to operate domestically... and this leak shows they are violating that concept on a daily basis. Yes, I think wet can all benefit from a public debate about classified programs. Let's start with Pats* cheating. We can both drink to that. Edited March 7, 2017 by Deranged Rhino
Benjamin Franklin Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 (edited) Greggy, I know it's a special day for you buddy. I dedicate this one to you. Cheers. Edited March 8, 2017 by Benjamin Franklin
Deranged Rhino Posted March 8, 2017 Author Posted March 8, 2017 Greggy, I know it's a special day for you buddy. I dedicate this one to you. Cheers.
GG Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 This is false. There is evidence of abuse included, the Snowden tweet is an example, and it's just part one of seven more drops to come. This is all in addition to the fact CIA is not chartered to operate domestically... and this leak shows they are violating that concept on a daily basis. Prove it
Deranged Rhino Posted March 8, 2017 Author Posted March 8, 2017 Prove it Read the primary source material for yourself, it's explicit.
GG Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 Read the primary source material for yourself, it's explicit. No it's not. It's full of conjecture of what the tools can be used for. There's nothing in there that shows how and where the tools were used. Use the same standard where you fluff away the Russia hacks. Show proof that CIA overstepped its boundaries.
Deranged Rhino Posted March 8, 2017 Author Posted March 8, 2017 No it's not. It's full of conjecture of what the tools can be used for. There's nothing in there that shows how and where the tools were used. You're once again so certain about things while admitting you haven't read the documents. You realize how fundamentally ignorant that is, correct? Use the same standard where you fluff away the Russia hacks. Show proof that CIA overstepped its boundaries. Start here... extrapolate and keep reading the documents themselves. There are thousands of pages, no one outside of Wikileaks has read them all let alone let alone analyzed them. Give it time. https://wikileaks.org/ciav7p1/cms/files/iOS%20Exploits%20-%20iOS%20-%20EDG%20Confluence.pdf
GG Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 You're once again so certain about things while admitting you haven't read the documents. You realize how fundamentally ignorant that is, correct? Start here... extrapolate and keep reading the documents themselves. There are thousands of pages, no one outside of Wikileaks has read them all let alone let alone analyzed them. Give it time. https://wikileaks.org/ciav7p1/cms/files/iOS%20Exploits%20-%20iOS%20-%20EDG%20Confluence.pdf Yet that doesn't stop you from jumping to the conclusion that CIA overstepped its legal authority, and it certainly appears that you haven't read it. And if WL people are the ones who have read it, why doesn't the WL press release contain a single item that points to CIA's illegality? WL talks at length at how these are the new tools in CIA's global arsenal, but there isn't a peep about their use against American targets or their use inside the US. But boy, does the press release sounds scary, doesn't it? As would a technical manual of a Howitzer.
Deranged Rhino Posted March 8, 2017 Author Posted March 8, 2017 Yet that doesn't stop you from jumping to the conclusion that CIA overstepped its legal authority, and it certainly appears that you haven't read it. And if WL people are the ones who have read it, why doesn't the WL press release contain a single item that points to CIA's illegality? WL talks at length at how these are the new tools in CIA's global arsenal, but there isn't a peep about their use against American targets or their use inside the US. But boy, does the press release sounds scary, doesn't it? As would a technical manual of a Howitzer. You're completely omitting the evidence in this leak that proves the US government -- through several branches of the IC -- paid to keep US products vulnerable to their spying tools... spying tools they purposefully kept declassified and farmed out to other state actors. That's an enormous breach of public trust on top of being insanely shortsighted and dangerous. Oh, and !@#$ing illegal. You seem to be operating under the assumption that I'm cheering Wikileaks on. As I said in the OP, this isn't about good guys versus bad guys, this is about bad guys versus worse guys. What we're seeing is, in some ways, what you referenced earlier today: a turf war. It's just not confined to one agency or one IC or even one government. It's a turf war within the Deep State which itself is comprised of many factions -- something I'm taking as a given in the course of the discussion within this thread. Because of this infighting, we are getting glimpses behind the curtain we otherwise wouldn't get. This release is one of those glimpses... it's also an ongoing operation. This is just the first of several planned dumps on the subject. Which, if you think about Wikileaks as being state-sponsored, which you clearly are, makes sense: if your goal is to take down or blackmail or coerce in any way a faction within CIA, a staggered release of more and more damning information is the perfect mechanism. It gives you time to negotiate, if possible, and raise the price while inflicting ever increasing pressure on your enemy. We are seeing a changing of the guard between factions of this Deep State -- I'm not rendering judgment on which side is better, I don't think either side is really looking out for Joe Public. But because of this infighting, and because of the internet and the advancement of informational warfare, we do have an opportunity as citizens to see the larger picture and work to enact meaningful change that work in our favor. That is if we do the work rather than farming out our critical thinking skills.
GG Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 You're completely omitting the evidence in this leak that proves the US government -- through several branches of the IC -- paid to keep US products vulnerable to their spying tools... spying tools they purposefully kept declassified and farmed out to other state actors. That's an enormous breach of public trust on top of being insanely shortsighted and dangerous. Oh, and !@#$ing illegal. You seem to be operating under the assumption that I'm cheering Wikileaks on. As I said in the OP, this isn't about good guys versus bad guys, this is about bad guys versus worse guys. What we're seeing is, in some ways, what you referenced earlier today: a turf war. It's just not confined to one agency or one IC or even one government. It's a turf war within the Deep State which itself is comprised of many factions -- something I'm taking as a given in the course of the discussion within this thread. Because of this infighting, we are getting glimpses behind the curtain we otherwise wouldn't get. This release is one of those glimpses... it's also an ongoing operation. This is just the first of several planned dumps on the subject. Which, if you think about Wikileaks as being state-sponsored, which you clearly are, makes sense: if your goal is to take down or blackmail or coerce in any way a faction within CIA, a staggered release of more and more damning information is the perfect mechanism. It gives you time to negotiate, if possible, and raise the price while inflicting ever increasing pressure on your enemy. We are seeing a changing of the guard between factions of this Deep State -- I'm not rendering judgment on which side is better, I don't think either side is really looking out for Joe Public. But because of this infighting, and because of the internet and the advancement of informational warfare, we do have an opportunity as citizens to see the larger picture and work to enact meaningful change that work in our favor. That is if we do the work rather than farming out our critical thinking skills. Nothing but more blather. I never said nor do I think Wikileaks are a state sponsored group. They're the latest in a line of cowardly useful idiots who think that the US is a bigger menace to the world than the enlightened eastern societies. They're no different than the anarchists and communists of the late 19th/early 20th centuries who were fighting for the people against the capitalist pigs. They're hypocrites and cowards, who don't have the balls to publish exculpatory materials on anyone but the US & UK. And again I'll ask you the question that you've never answered. What's the end game for the Deep State? Do the factions get a cookie when they win?
Benjamin Franklin Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 (edited) Nothing but more blather. I never said nor do I think Wikileaks are a state sponsored group. They're the latest in a line of cowardly useful idiots who think that the US is a bigger menace to the world than the enlightened eastern societies. They're no different than the anarchists and communists of the late 19th/early 20th centuries who were fighting for the people against the capitalist pigs. They're hypocrites and cowards, who don't have the balls to publish exculpatory materials on anyone but the US & UK. And again I'll ask you the question that you've never answered. What's the end game for the Deep State? Do the factions get a cookie when they win? It's part of a bigger conspiracy GG. Deep State is a rook in the grandest conspiracy of all time. There are layers of narrative to unravel here. The wackier ideas have beenposted here before but due to mockery, they've settled a bit. They still percolate just below the surface. The Illuminati are watching you. In fairness to DR, who tends to carry the flag for the PPP conspiracists here (of which there are a disproportionate number), Nanker may be even more into alternate realities. Boston Marathon bombing? 9-11? Building 7? Missile hit the Pentagon? OJ? Moon landing? Flat earth? (Thank you Kyrie Irving for making this one great again!) Any bites? Someone please tell us what happened, or how we've all been fed a narrative. Edited March 8, 2017 by Benjamin Franklin
Tiberius Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 You're completely omitting the evidence in this leak that proves the US government -- through several branches of the IC -- paid to keep US products vulnerable to their spying tools... spying tools they purposefully kept declassified and farmed out to other state actors. That's an enormous breach of public trust on top of being insanely shortsighted and dangerous. Oh, and !@#$ing illegal. That is totally wrong. If you are right about that something needs to be done to stop it. Doesn't look like anything will get done in the next few years and by then I suppose technology will have changed and so will have the abuses
Tiberius Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 Deep state story http://time.com/4692178/donald-trump-deep-state-breitbart-barack-obama/?xid=homepage
DC Tom Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 In fairness to DR, who tends to carry the flag for the PPP conspiracists here (of which there are a disproportionate number), But that's what they want you to think...
Deranged Rhino Posted March 8, 2017 Author Posted March 8, 2017 Nothing but more blather. Like I said, dodge, duck, dive -- anything to avoid the reality being discussed in this thread. If you consider evidence that the USG coerced tech companies to keep US products vulnerable as just "blather" ... well that once again shows either your bias or your ignorance. From the rest of your post, I'm guessing it's both. I never said nor do I think Wikileaks are a state sponsored group. They're the latest in a line of cowardly useful idiots who think that the US is a bigger menace to the world than the enlightened eastern societies. They're no different than the anarchists and communists of the late 19th/early 20th centuries who were fighting for the people against the capitalist pigs. They're hypocrites and cowards, who don't have the balls to publish exculpatory materials on anyone but the US & UK. They are absolutely enemies of your chosen team (which is not the US by the way). And again I'll ask you the question that you've never answered. What's the end game for the Deep State? Do the factions get a cookie when they win? If you read, you'll see that question has been answered quite thoroughly in the OP. Wading into topics you admit you don't believe in, to talk about material you admit you haven't read has gone badly for you this time around. Do better. It's part of a bigger conspiracy GG. Deep State is a rook in the grandest conspiracy of all time. There are layers of narrative to unravel here. The wackier ideas have been posted here before but due to mockery, they've settled a bit. They still percolate just below the surface. The Illuminati are watching you. In fairness to DR, who tends to carry the flag for the PPP conspiracists here (of which there are a disproportionate number), Nanker may be even more into alternate realities. Boston Marathon bombing? 9-11? Building 7? Missile hit the Pentagon? OJ? Moon landing? Flat earth? (Thank you Kyrie Irving for making this one great again!) Any bites? Someone please tell us what happened, or how we've all been fed a narrative. Back to demonstrate your own ignorance once again? I thought you checked out of this thread weeks ago.
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