UConn James Posted February 27, 2005 Posted February 27, 2005 I'd rather have it happen that way than lose him. 254545[/snapback] You'd prefer to have him tank it like Rueben simply so someone can wear #93 and remind us all of bygone days? Pat is going to be 33, plays 50 percent of the time, and wants a 4-to-5-year contract w/ a SB that the Bills will have to eat when he retires or is cut in two years. I don't see an upside here. There is a reason why Edwards got some good PT last year (Bengals game) and Tim Anderson was drafted.
BF_in_Indiana Posted February 27, 2005 Posted February 27, 2005 If we let Pat leave I believe we will se a large drop off in the production of Sam Adams. That being said, he isn't worth 5 million per year. TD needs to make the smart move and let him go if that's what he wants to get per year.
Buftex Posted February 27, 2005 Posted February 27, 2005 No. Sam Adams is a better player than Pat Williams. Pat has never been to the Pro Bowl and he really didn't have a good season this year. Hell, I bet many people haven't even heard of Pat Williams. 254428[/snapback] Not to signal you out Mike, but I have seen a number of people state, as if it is accepted fact, that Pat Williams did not have a good season in 2004...where is this notion coming from? We all know that Pro Bowl recognition is not really reflective a players performance, more like a high school popularity contest, for about half the players who go to Hawaii. I thought Williams had a very solid, at times spectacualr season. In fact, I thought he and Adams had very similar type seasons. Adams is the name guy, and maybe has more of a knack for big plays, but down for down, big Pat was very solid, from what I saw. Why is it everyone thinks he had a bad year? Either way, I hope he is back next season, as I think losing him, and going with an Edwards/Anderson combo, would likely weaken the entire defense. Not only at the line of scrimmage, but as a result, the backfield will get severely tested. Then, I think we will find that Terrane McGee, the Pro Bowler, is a great return man, and a very good nickel back, but maybe a little over-matched as a starting corner. I agree, I wouldn't break the bank to keep him (and we know TD will never do that type of thing), but I hope some effort is to give him a fair offer. Sounds like he would want to stay, as long as he is not "insulted" with a low-ball offer, or worse, no counter offer at all.
obie_wan Posted February 27, 2005 Posted February 27, 2005 4 yrs-$16 million with $6 million guaranteed money Give him $10 million of that in the first 2 yrs. Sounds fair too me 254436[/snapback] sounds like the money that should go to JJ. $10 mil over 2 years to Fat Pat will put us on the fast track back to cap hell. You don't overpay for old, overweight players on the downside of their careers.
RJsackedagain Posted February 27, 2005 Posted February 27, 2005 Because all of the teams that can afford his demand ($5 million/yr) happen to be sh-------. 254475[/snapback] I'd have to disagree with that ........ the Ravens and Eagles are both well under the cap and they don't stink. If a good team wants Big Pat bad enough they can find a way to squeeze him under the cap. Believe me, I'd love to keep the Big Guy in Buffalo, but hopefully he finds a good home with a team that doesn't wear teal.
Larry Playfair Posted February 27, 2005 Posted February 27, 2005 If we are choosing btwn the two - I'd rather get clements signed to a long term deal then give Pat a big pay day. I love Pat and believe he is underated. But nate is a necessity for us to keep around and his K expires after this year.
soljc Posted February 27, 2005 Posted February 27, 2005 He has two options, one sign with the bills for a deal similar to sam adams and play for a team on the cusp of greatness... 254427[/snapback] Cusp of greatness? This team? Rookie QB? No OL? Nah.
d_wag Posted February 27, 2005 Author Posted February 27, 2005 There was zero chance that Pat was going to sign with the Bills (once it was past the midway point of last year) until he could both see what was out on the open market and use that against the Bills in his impending negotiations with them. 254500[/snapback] i don't understand this line of thinking........ the colts managed to get ryan diem signed this past week........ the lions locked up dominic raiola yesterday....... and the saints kept jay bellamy off the market by signing him this week...... those are 3 potential UFA's that decided to forgo free agency to resign with their current clubs........all 3 would have been in demand on the open market....... besides that, countless teams are currently talking to their potential UFA's, making offers, and trying to get deals worked out BEFORE free agency....... why was resigning before free agency an impossible proposition with big pat but perfectly realistic for those 3 guys? what makes their situations different then his?
MadBuffaloDisease Posted February 27, 2005 Posted February 27, 2005 Like I said, maybe TD and co. like what they see in Edwards and Anderson, like they did in Losman?
BuckeyeBill Posted February 27, 2005 Posted February 27, 2005 some time like the chiefs - a team a lot closer to greatness than the bills 254480[/snapback] You are crazy. Great teams are built on defense. Chiefs have one of the worst in the league.
Mike32282 Posted February 27, 2005 Posted February 27, 2005 Not to signal you out Mike, but I have seen a number of people state, as if it is accepted fact, that Pat Williams did not have a good season in 2004...where is this notion coming from? We all know that Pro Bowl recognition is not really reflective a players performance, more like a high school popularity contest, for about half the players who go to Hawaii. I thought Williams had a very solid, at times spectacualr season. In fact, I thought he and Adams had very similar type seasons. Adams is the name guy, and maybe has more of a knack for big plays, but down for down, big Pat was very solid, from what I saw. Why is it everyone thinks he had a bad year? Either way, I hope he is back next season, as I think losing him, and going with an Edwards/Anderson combo, would likely weaken the entire defense. Not only at the line of scrimmage, but as a result, the backfield will get severely tested. Then, I think we will find that Terrane McGee, the Pro Bowler, is a great return man, and a very good nickel back, but maybe a little over-matched as a starting corner. I agree, I wouldn't break the bank to keep him (and we know TD will never do that type of thing), but I hope some effort is to give him a fair offer. Sounds like he would want to stay, as long as he is not "insulted" with a low-ball offer, or worse, no counter offer at all. 254613[/snapback] I'm not saying he's had a bad season, but it wasn't that great either. Basically, he's done better. IMO, the line actually looked fine when they rotated Ron Edwards in. They did lose a bit of the run blocking, but Edwards had a pretty good season. I don't want to get rid of Big Pat, but I also think that he is getting up there in age. Also, if you are a fan of stats...his tackles were down and his pass defensed. I also think that due to his shape, he's not the kind of guy that plays more than 2 downs. It seems like he was only out on the field for half of the snaps last season. Someone like that is not worthy of $4 or even $5 million per season. Look at how he matched up with Sam Adams, who only got 4 yrs for $10.248M and a $1.5 M signing bonus. Adams was also 30 years old then. Pat Williams will be 33 this year. Pat Williams - 53 total tackles, 37 solo tackles, 16 assists, 2.5 sacks, 1 interception, 1 TD, 0 pass defensed (12 of the total tackles, 8 solo, 4 assists, and 1 sack were in the last game) Sam Adams - 41 total tackles, 26 solo tackles, 15 assists, 5 sacks, 1 INT, 2 pass defensed, 1 fumble forced
BuckeyeBill Posted February 27, 2005 Posted February 27, 2005 i don't understand this line of thinking........ the colts managed to get ryan diem signed this past week........ the lions locked up dominic raiola yesterday....... and the saints kept jay bellamy off the market by signing him this week...... those are 3 potential UFA's that decided to forgo free agency to resign with their current clubs........all 3 would have been in demand on the open market....... besides that, countless teams are currently talking to their potential UFA's, making offers, and trying to get deals worked out BEFORE free agency....... why was resigning before free agency an impossible proposition with big pat but perfectly realistic for those 3 guys? what makes their situations different then his? 254788[/snapback] Donahoe is a big stingy, but his genius offsets that.
ajzepp Posted February 27, 2005 Posted February 27, 2005 "Even though the Bills say they want to keep him, they haven't made an offer since making an early proposal last summer." http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050...?tbd1036008.asp i don't blame him for shopping his services.......obviously the bills aeren't too eager to get a deal done and he can't sit around waiting on them........if i was in his position, i wouldn't be giving a hometown discount to a team that has made such little effort to retain me........ 254423[/snapback] So let me get this straight......in one post you talk about how TD doesn't understand the importance of signing players before their contracts expire so that you can lock them up for less money. Now you're criticizing him after hearing that he DID in fact try this very strategy with Pat Williams. You have no idea what you're talking about, bro. Why don't you just accept that TD knows what players he wants and knows the best way to go about obtaining or retaining them. Just because an outcome is different than you or I want it to be does not mean it was because TD screwed something up.
d_wag Posted February 27, 2005 Author Posted February 27, 2005 So let me get this straight......in one post you talk about how TD doesn't understand the importance of signing players before their contracts expire so that you can lock them up for less money. Now you're criticizing him after hearing that he DID in fact try this very strategy with Pat Williams. You have no idea what you're talking about, bro. Why don't you just accept that TD knows what players he wants and knows the best way to go about obtaining or retaining them. Just because an outcome is different than you or I want it to be does not mean it was because TD screwed something up. 254898[/snapback] sorry, i'll stick to posting just opinions from now on......i see how the facts disturb you.........
ajzepp Posted February 27, 2005 Posted February 27, 2005 sorry, i'll stick to posting just opinions from now on......i see how the facts disturb you......... 254905[/snapback] You're the one contradicting yourself within the course of a 24hr period, bro. The difference between those of us who were on the anti-bledsoe crusade and your anti-TD crusade is that we had a whole helluva lot more data to use in our assessment. You are not privy to the vast majority of what TD does with regard to player evaluations and negotiations. So stop pretending you are.
1billsfan Posted February 27, 2005 Posted February 27, 2005 Pat is too old to be signing to a huge contract. Not when you'll have McGahee, Evans and Losman looking for theirs when Big Pats big contract numbers come due a few years down the line. You just have to bite the bullet and start Edwards in his place. Unless big Pat comes back a la Rueben Brown with a more reasonable number more in line with his role on the team. I'm thinking 3 million a year tops for a solid run stopper on the wrong side of thirty years old. Forget about Pat and hope TD is not stupid enough to let Nate slip away. They really need to extend his contract this year. As for worrying about our defense, we will be better than fine without Pat. Tim Kumrie is a great line coach that will not allow us to slip in this area.
d_wag Posted February 27, 2005 Author Posted February 27, 2005 You're the one contradicting yourself within the course of a 24hr period, bro. The difference between those of us who were on the anti-bledsoe crusade and your anti-TD crusade is that we had a whole helluva lot more data to use in our assessment. You are not privy to the vast majority of what TD does with regard to player evaluations and negotiations. So stop pretending you are. 254908[/snapback] your right, i'm not privy to what goes on behind closed doors.........which is why i'm so interested to find out that no negioations have happened since last summer, which was the last time talks were documented between TD and PW's agent.........i figured others would find it interesting as well to note that TD has not submitted another offer while other teams are working hard to retain their key players, not just talking about how badly they want them back........ i haven't contridicted a thing........i have trashed TD's style, and this leads right in to it........i don't like this game of cat and mouse.......i think it shows the player little respect and often has more negative side effects then positive..........but that has nothing to do with the thread, as i was just trying to provide info that many i'm sure have not heard........ were you aware that there have been no talks since the summer with PW? anti-TD crusade? sorry man, i can call out a GM for things i disagree with and not be "anti" someone.........likewise, i can pat him on the back for moves i agree with without being "pro".......the difference is i'm unbiased enough to recognize when he does screw something up, unlike you who just wants to get behind every decision he makes....... is that better? i chucked some opinion in there, cause i know you don't want to see facts posted by the buffalo news........
JP-era Posted February 27, 2005 Posted February 27, 2005 Donahoe is a big stingy, but his genius offsets that. 254817[/snapback] Id tend to agree but we havent seen the conclusion yet. It was letting go Cowart, Sam Rogers, etc... without knowing he planned to get Spikes and Fletcher. He may let Pat go but who is he getting instead, he tends to upgrade. I hope he continues that trend.
ajzepp Posted February 27, 2005 Posted February 27, 2005 your right, i'm not privy to what goes on behind closed doors.........which is why i'm so interested to find out that no negioations have happened since last summer, which was the last time talks were documented between TD and PW's agent.........i figured others would find it interesting as well to note that TD has not submitted another offer while other teams are working hard to retain their key players, not just talking about how badly they want them back........ i haven't contridicted a thing........i have trashed TD's style, and this leads right in to it........i don't like this game of cat and mouse.......i think it shows the player little respect and often has more negative side effects then positive..........but that has nothing to do with the thread, as i was just trying to provide info that many i'm sure have not heard........ were you aware that there have been no talks since the summer with PW? anti-TD crusade? sorry man, i can call out a GM for things i disagree with and not be "anti" someone.........likewise, i can pat him on the back for moves i agree with without being "pro".......the difference is i'm unbiased enough to recognize when he does screw something up, unlike you who just wants to get behind every decision he makes....... is that better? i chucked some opinion in there, cause i know you don't want to see facts posted by the buffalo news........ 254914[/snapback] You're right. I DESPISE factual information. My point is simply that you do not know what TD does or doesn't do on a daily basis. You also don't know anything more about the agent or player's motivations other than what you read in the paper. If you want to go around trying to figure out what kind of a GM TD is based on second hand reports and speculation, you go right ahead. Meanwhile, I'll sit here and wait anxiously to see what TD - in his own style and on his own time frame - has in store for my beloved Buffalo Bills and their fans this offseason. By the way, do you think players like Takeo, Big Sam, Posey, CV, Schobel, etc, are all just a bunch of stupid players with stupid agents? Why in the world would they want to sign these lowball contracts from a GM who just plays cat and mouse all day long? Makes no sense.......
d_wag Posted February 27, 2005 Author Posted February 27, 2005 By the way, do you think players like Takeo, Big Sam, Posey, CV, Schobel, etc, are all just a bunch of stupid players with stupid agents? Why in the world would they want to sign these lowball contracts from a GM who just plays cat and mouse all day long? Makes no sense....... 254918[/snapback] takeo -- we gave him an outstanding offer a week into free agency....very good move big sam -- we jerked him around for 2 weeks......2 days after he rejected our "final offer", we upped it and he finally signed.....the lowball strategy worked in this case, but i think this was due to only one other team showing interest in him.....very good move because we got him posey -- we made him a quick offer and he took it......he hasn't played as well as expected, but the deal was small so it hasn't hurt us villarial -- another quick strike......this has worked out better then posey, but we did have to pay market rate to get him schobel -- excellent move which i have commended TD for many times.....he put up the cash and the young player took it now, i've talked about your guys, hear me out on PW........ we made him an offer in the summer......he rejected it.......from that point on, according to the buffalo news, not one more conversation happened........do you think that is the best strategy for retaining a player? if you don't want big pat back, it's a very simple answer.......but if you do want him to return, i think it's very fair to say there are other ways to go about it that may have a more positive effect.......no?
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