KRT88 Posted December 28, 2016 Author Posted December 28, 2016 What Bills QB has Taylor production? 7100 total yards 46 TD's 15 turnovers He needs to improve in the passing game but I just don't see how we can improve next year. Give Cardale Jones another year to develop. With the top rushing attack, a better WR corp and a better defense, TT can get us to the post season. Brian Hoyer - oh brother Why do we want to go 3-13?
bobobonators Posted December 28, 2016 Posted December 28, 2016 You are greatly overestimating how much Taylor means to W-Ls. Fitz, Losman, Edwards managed to win 6/7 games every year. Taylor has won 7 & 8. So without Taylor, we suddenly go 2-14? That makes no sense. LOL..2-14 is nothing more than hyperbole. With TT starting all games with this crap defense we went (assuming he started and beat the Jets this sunday) 8-8. TT accounted for 23 TD's (which is in the top half for scoring in the NFL for QB's) and very few turnovers. Lets replace TT with QB XYZ. Lets give QB XYZ the benefit of the doubt and say he also finished in the top half for scoring and accounted for 25/26 TD's but also had 2x as many INT (which is the likely outcome unless you plan on using an elite QB as an example). With this defense this year, how many more losses would we have if we had another 14 INT from the QB position? How many more TD's would opposing teams have scored on us if we doubled the turnover rate from the QB position? It's hard to say b/c it's impossible to know. What we do know is that this defense sucks, so I'd expect the outcome to not be good. Maybe 5-11? 6-10? Hard to say I guess. Certainly not 2-14 though.
Kirby Jackson Posted December 28, 2016 Posted December 28, 2016 You completely lost me at Hoyer. The Bills are not a 4 - 12 team, so why blow everything on the roster up? If they actually played defense Saturday, they would be playing with an outside opportunity to make the playoffs. 17 years of no playoffs brings out some crazy ideas. Because TT gives them the best chance to win in 2017. That's kind of the point. You either keep him and build on where you are or you start over. This isn't a good QB draft and the market is extremely limited. It's not a crazy idea at all. You either keep the best option to win in 2017 or start over. To start over, resetting is a much better option trying to win 7 games next year and be in the same place in 2018.
Bronc24 Posted December 28, 2016 Posted December 28, 2016 Because TT gives them the best chance to win in 2017. That's kind of the point. You either keep him and build on where you are or you start over. This isn't a good QB draft and the market is extremely limited. It's not a crazy idea at all. You either keep the best option to win in 2017 or start over. To start over, resetting is a much better option trying to win 7 games next year and be in the same place in 2018. I agree with this. I missed this thought process in your OP.
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 28, 2016 Posted December 28, 2016 LOL..2-14 is nothing more than hyperbole. With TT starting all games with this crap defense we went (assuming he started and beat the Jets this sunday) 8-8. TT accounted for 23 TD's (which is in the top half for scoring in the NFL for QB's) and very few turnovers. Lets replace TT with QB XYZ. Lets give QB XYZ the benefit of the doubt and say he also finished in the top half for scoring and accounted for 25/26 TD's but also had 2x as many INT (which is the likely outcome unless you plan on using an elite QB as an example). With this defense this year, how many more losses would we have if we had another 14 INT from the QB position? How many more TD's would opposing teams have scored on us if we doubled the turnover rate from the QB position? It's hard to say b/c it's impossible to know. What we do know is that this defense sucks, so I'd expect the outcome to not be good. Maybe 5-11? 6-10? Hard to say I guess. Certainly not 2-14 though. Very few qbs would have been worse against Baltimore. Tyrod can do amazing things at things but he goes into stretches where he is really bad. He bails on pass plays too early and doesn't give his playmakers a chance to make enough plays. If our run game gets shut down, he has shown he is not capable of winning games with his arm. I agree we are in a tough spot with Taylor. Basically, I think he is an 8-8 type qb. That doesn't $27 million imo. I believe we have an excellent offensive setup that a lot of qbs would thrive in. But nothing about this past year made me think he deserves to be the highest paid player on our team and believe it would be a mistake.
Wagon Circler Posted December 28, 2016 Posted December 28, 2016 I don't think anyone wants to just dump Tyrod with nobody there to replace him. But that is contingent on him renegotiating down to a more team friendly contract. I consider him a bridge until we find the next Kelly (please god ). I am not paying him 30 million next year to hold the ball and lead the league in sacks.
Rubes Posted December 28, 2016 Posted December 28, 2016 Maybe EJ will have a stellar game against the woeful Jets, and Whaley will announce that he's going to be the starter going into next year. Then, watch Bills Nation collectively implode.
Maury Ballstein Posted December 28, 2016 Posted December 28, 2016 Anyone. There's nowhere to go but up from 31st in passing.
bobobonators Posted December 28, 2016 Posted December 28, 2016 Very few qbs would have been worse against Baltimore. Tyrod can do amazing things at things but he goes into stretches where he is really bad. He bails on pass plays too early and doesn't give his playmakers a chance to make enough plays. If our run game gets shut down, he has shown he is not capable of winning games with his arm. I agree we are in a tough spot with Taylor. Basically, I think he is an 8-8 type qb. That doesn't $27 million imo. I believe we have an excellent offensive setup that a lot of qbs would thrive in. But nothing about this past year made me think he deserves to be the highest paid player on our team and believe it would be a mistake. You may be right, but I don't think so. A run-first team can be hard on some QB's. Some QB's need a lot of pass attempts to get into a rhythm. It's hard, for many QB's, to consistently pass the ball accurately and effectively if they're only throwing it 20x a game. It's like, alright, I know you've only thrown the ball 1-2x in the last 10 plays, but we need a big 3rd and 8 conversion now. It's not that easy IMO. Big time passing QB's need to pass the ball, they want to pass the ball. So in this offense, we would go away from what makes it great: running the ball, and running it a lot. The dynamics of the passing game would change, and that may be fine, or it may not. To me it comes down to this: This offense works. It scores points, and it scores a lot. TD's/play; Red Zone offense; total points; Touchdowns scored (not fg's); 3rd down % it's 14th, not great but not horrible. TT has been a part of that. It can't be denied or taken away from him. Pick up the option, pick up a better RT, and add WR depth.
Mark80 Posted December 28, 2016 Posted December 28, 2016 Sign EJ cheap. Draft Kelly round 3/4. Re-sign Gillmore with cash saved on QB. Sign best Safety you can (Berry hopefully). Draft best OLine and WR you can in rounds 1/2. QB competition in pre-season between EJ, Cardale, and Kelly if he has recovered fully by then. If we don't hit on anyone, draft a QB again in 2018, then in 19, and 20 until you are satisfied you have found your man.
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 28, 2016 Posted December 28, 2016 You may be right, but I don't think so. A run-first team can be hard on some QB's. Some QB's need a lot of pass attempts to get into a rhythm. It's hard, for many QB's, to consistently pass the ball accurately and effectively if they're only throwing it 20x a game. It's like, alright, I know you've only thrown the ball 1-2x in the last 10 plays, but we need a big 3rd and 8 conversion now. It's not that easy IMO. Big time passing QB's need to pass the ball, they want to pass the ball. So in this offense, we would go away from what makes it great: running the ball, and running it a lot. The dynamics of the passing game would change, and that may be fine, or it may not. To me it comes down to this: This offense works. It scores points, and it scores a lot. TD's/play; Red Zone offense; total points; Touchdowns scored (not fg's); 3rd down % it's 14th, not great but not horrible. TT has been a part of that. It can't be denied or taken away from him. Pick up the option, pick up a better RT, and add WR depth. Valid points but put it this way, if our running game breaks down, do you believe Tyrod can win us a game? How many games has Tyrod been the main reason we won? I'll give him Miami and the Seattle ones. But I can't remember too many others. Again, I like some things Tyrod does. But 200 yards passing is not asking for much from a qb in today's NFL. I just don't believe he is worth that extension.
bobobonators Posted December 28, 2016 Posted December 28, 2016 Valid points but put it this way, if our running game breaks down, do you believe Tyrod can win us a game? How many games has Tyrod been the main reason we won? I'll give him Miami and the Seattle ones. But I can't remember too many others. Again, I like some things Tyrod does. But 200 yards passing is not asking for much from a qb in today's NFL. I just don't believe he is worth that extension. If our running game breaks down, our chances of winning are extremely reduced, much the same way that if the Falcons or Saints passing game breaks down (which it does at times), they're chances of winning are extremely reduced. In the NFL, you find something that works and you run with it (pardon the pun). How many games have we scored in the teens this season? Two maybe 3? How many times has our running game been shut down? Point is, this offense rarely gets completely shut down. Every team in the NFL has games where they have clunkers on offense. Look at what the high flying Falcons did in Philly. Or what they did in Seattle. The Ravens have a top 5 defense. We sucked. It was week 1 on the road and we came out flat. It happens. But other than 2-3 games this season this offense hasn't been completely shut down all game. Fact remains, a better defense and we're in the playoffs. Just like if the Saints had a better defense, they'd be in the playoffs.
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 28, 2016 Posted December 28, 2016 If our running game breaks down, our chances of winning are extremely reduced, much the same way that if the Falcons or Saints passing game breaks down (which it does at times), they're chances of winning are extremely reduced. In the NFL, you find something that works and you run with it (pardon the pun). How many games have we scored in the teens this season? Two maybe 3? How many times has our running game been shut down? Point is, this offense rarely gets completely shut down. Every team in the NFL has games where they have clunkers on offense. Look at what the high flying Falcons did in Philly. Or what they did in Seattle. The Ravens have a top 5 defense. We sucked. It was week 1 on the road and we came out flat. It happens. But other than 2-3 games this season this offense hasn't been completely shut down all game. Fact remains, a better defense and we're in the playoffs. Just like if the Saints had a better defense, they'd be in the playoffs. Defense deserved the Baltimore win. Taylor was about as bad as I've seen a qb be. The 3 and outs in Miami's heat destroyed the defense. Defense won the Cincy game. Let's not pretend like we had some powerhouse offense. They were capable of big plays but was an inconsistent unit. This season's failure wasn't all on the defense. And this is what I hear with Taylor. If you get him another stud receiver, another RT, & top 10 defense, he would get us in the playoffs. I think there are about 30 guys who can do this.
dave mcbride Posted December 28, 2016 Posted December 28, 2016 Defense deserved the Baltimore win. Taylor was about as bad as I've seen a qb be. The 3 and outs in Miami's heat destroyed the defense. Defense won the Cincy game. Let's not pretend like we had some powerhouse offense. They were capable of big plays but was an inconsistent unit. This season's failure wasn't all on the defense. And this is what I hear with Taylor. If you get him another stud receiver, another RT, & top 10 defense, he would get us in the playoffs. I think there are about 30 guys who can do this. Baltimore has a damn good defense - #3 in DVOA - and they're especially tough at home. Don't factor that out.
bobobonators Posted December 28, 2016 Posted December 28, 2016 Defense deserved the Baltimore win. Taylor was about as bad as I've seen a qb be. The 3 and outs in Miami's heat destroyed the defense. Defense won the Cincy game. Let's not pretend like we had some powerhouse offense. They were capable of big plays but was an inconsistent unit. This season's failure wasn't all on the defense. And this is what I hear with Taylor. If you get him another stud receiver, another RT, & top 10 defense, he would get us in the playoffs. I think there are about 30 guys who can do this. I 100% get what youre saying and we may be arguing different things. What Im saying is that this offense doesnt need to improve at QB. This offense doesnt revolve around the QB and bc it doesnt recolve around the QB we dont need an elite "franchise" QB. We need TT. We need someone who can throw the deep ball to sammy 2-3x a game and scramble for a 1st down 3-5x a game. We need a QB who is perfectly content throwing it 20x a game in the majority if his starts. In sum, this offense is the running game. And Im fine with that. I dont think it needs to be changed for this team to win. I feel that their scoring rate proves that. The defense needs to change and thats it. Id be 100% fine going to battle with the exact same players on offense next season. Im not asking for Julio Jones a pro bowl RT and travis kelce. Im just objectively saying that the offense as a whole could benefit from an upgrade at RT and better WR depth. Other than that im personally ready to roll with this offense for the next 2-3yrs. Others are not and thats cool. Theyre wrong but thats cool. Lol
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 28, 2016 Posted December 28, 2016 Baltimore has a damn good defense - #3 in DVOA - and they're especially tough at home. Don't factor that out. Agreed but they give up 233 yards per game. Tyrod had 111 with everyone healthy. My point is to not pretend like every loss was on the defense.
dave mcbride Posted December 28, 2016 Posted December 28, 2016 Agreed but they give up 233 yards per game. Tyrod had 111 with everyone healthy. My point is to not pretend like every loss was on the defense. Most were though. I agree that it wasn't every one.
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 28, 2016 Posted December 28, 2016 I 100% get what youre saying and we may be arguing different things. What Im saying is that this offense doesnt need to improve at QB. This offense doesnt revolve around the QB and bc it doesnt recolve around the QB we dont need an elite "franchise" QB. We need TT. We need someone who can throw the deep ball to sammy 2-3x a game and scramble for a 1st down 3-5x a game. We need a QB who is perfectly content throwing it 20x a game in the majority if his starts. In sum, this offense is the running game. And Im fine with that. I dont think it needs to be changed for this team to win. I feel that their scoring rate proves that. The defense needs to change and thats it. Id be 100% fine going to battle with the exact same players on offense next season. Im not asking for Julio Jones a pro bowl RT and travis kelce. Im just objectively saying that the offense as a whole could benefit from an upgrade at RT and better WR depth. Other than that im personally ready to roll with this offense for the next 2-3yrs. Others are not and thats cool. Theyre wrong but thats cool. Lol Haha, we probably are. When I look for a qb, I want a guy who can win you game and make players around him better. I rarely have seen Taylor do that. If anything, people put down the players around him to boost him up. I think the comparison with Taylor are Wilson and Alex Smith. But I've seen those guys win games with their arms (and they were much better passers in college). I rarely see that from Tyrod. I feel like with him at qb our margin for error is so small. But I do realize you could do much worse. I said before the season, he could be a better qb this year with worse stats. I just didn't see it enough this year from him.
Kelly the Dog Posted December 28, 2016 Posted December 28, 2016 Agreed but they give up 233 yards per game. Tyrod had 111 with everyone healthy. My point is to not pretend like every loss was on the defense. Watkins was not healthy at all. He said he was 100% because he always says that. But it's clear he wasn't and he didn't really get any worse before they shut him down for 10 games. He hasn't been 100% for over two seasons. Even in the last few games last year he wasn't.
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 28, 2016 Posted December 28, 2016 Most were though. I agree that it wasn't every one. The flip side was defense was the reason for the Cincy and Jags wins. And I'd argue that both offense and defense was the reasons for the 1st Miami loss and Oakland. But it does show how stupid w-l records are for qbs.
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