GG Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 20 minutes ago, Iron Maiden said: Let me ask you this...how often to you travel outside if the country? I'm lucky to have the opportunity to do it quite often because of work.....So yeah, I do think about the way we are perceived..... Selling their soul ?...that's a bit dramatic.....my point was we are not indispensable for them to progress......Trump's act will be wearing thin with the other world's leader..... We are certainly not indispensable to the rest of the world.... ... If the rest of the world knew how to act independently. But as it stands, the world still needs the US very badly. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 43 minutes ago, DC Tom said: And there's a reason Japan is building aircraft carriers again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevbeau Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Iron Maiden said: What stops the EU + Canada + the UK to simply keep moving without us....they need us, but absolutely can go on without us....what if they get " friendlier" with China ?.....China would love to take these guys off our team and on theirs ....Now, I don;t think this will happen.....despite what Trump is saying, our culture and values are much closer to those countries than China....But acting like WE don't value our allies, economically and militarily, is not good IMO....we are a huge market, but the world can go on without the good ol' USA...I don't want us to piss off our allies to the point where they say enough, and gives us the " Trump " treatment....And I truly believe, that time will come sooner than later....Hopefully I'm wrong... China has not proven the ability to create, they process...however we are on the tipping point of forcing them to be “adults” or a complete shutdown of technology going their way. This is what the end game is about...IP....not steel, not cheap housewares, not the EU....the EUs role is to get in line and stop throwing dollars at their bogeyman . Next step is if China plays hardball watch what happens to student visas from their neck of the world k Edited July 15, 2018 by Kevbeau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 49 minutes ago, Doc Brown said: That's a horrible idea on so many levels. NATO alone has helped create the longest time of relative peace in Europe in centuries. Why is that our problem again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koko78 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Iron Maiden said: What stops the EU + Canada + the UK to simply keep moving without us... What, you mean besides their respective economies collapsing? 2 hours ago, Iron Maiden said: China would love to take these guys off our team and on theirs... What do you think China can offer them? It isn't security, and it isn't a trading partner that can come anywhere close to what the US can provide. China has been living on theft and currency manipulation for quite some time. Seriously, do you really think that there is a single country that's acting altruistically? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 AMUSINGLY, TRUMP’S ACTUAL ACTIONS HAVE BEEN HARSHER TOWARD PUTIN THAN EITHER OBAMA’S OR BUSH’S: Matthew Continetti: Trump and His Team Recognize Russia Is Not Trustworthy. Related: Walter Russell Mead: Trump Isn’t Sounding Like a Russian Mole: Trump’s core global strategy is intended to destroy any illusions in Moscow that Russia is a peer competitor of Washington’s. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Nothing was weaker than Kerry and Obama cheering Putin walking into the Crimea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Maiden Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, Koko78 said: What, you mean besides their respective economies collapsing? What do you think China can offer them? It isn't security, and it isn't a trading partner that can come anywhere close to what the US can provide. China has been living on theft and currency manipulation for quite some time. Seriously, do you really think that there is a single country that's acting altruistically? I disagree...they can survive and even prosper without us...they would simply change their current ways of doing things....we are the # 1 market in the world, but there's ways for them to go on without us....it's not ideal for them of course, but it is possible...already, we see bilateral deals without us happening in response to the tariffs hikes.... The world needs us...yes...but we need the world as well....and Trump criticizing and dumping of our allies is not, IMO, the way to go...he can and should fix things behind close doors... Can you imagine the reaction here if May, Trudeau, Macron , Merkel etc...would act like Trump....getting on twitter or in TV interviews and slamming the way we do things...saying they would do much better...we would flip out and telling them to stuff it !....Well, the rest of the world will eventually tell us the same.... As far as China...what can they offer ?...Only the largest market ( population wise ) in the world.....As I said earlier, I do not think this would happen...but it's something to be aware of....China has more power than some think....we owe them over 1.19 trillion.....they could start cashing in, instead of buying more debts....they can also flood the markets with US $....that would result in inflation etc.... We are not untouchable as some think...again, we need our allies...and telling May that the way she is dealing with Brexit would likely end hopes of a trade deal with us is no the way to go...Why are we telling them how to deal with Brexit ? Or the trade adviser telling Trudeau there's a special place in hell for people like him..( I know the administration has since apologized ) for him simply saying the same things at the G7 summit that he's been saying for months.... That's the stuff I would like to stop..it's unnecessary and makes Trump look like a complete !@#$....... Edited July 15, 2018 by Iron Maiden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Iron Maiden said: I disagree...they can survive and even prosper without us...they would simply change their current ways of doing things....we are the # 1 market in the world, but there's ways for them to go on without us....it's not ideal for them of course, but it is possible...already, we see bilateral deals without us happening in response to the tariffs hikes.... The world needs us...yes...but we need the world as well....and Trump criticizing and dumping of our allies is not, IMO, the way to go...he can and should fix things behind close doors... Can you imagine the reaction here if May, Trudeau, Macron , Merkel etc...would act like Trump....getting on twitter or in TV interviews and slamming the way we do things...saying they would do much better...we would flip out and telling them to stuff it !....Well, the rest of the world will eventually tell us the same.... As far as China...what can they offer ?...Only the largest market ( population wise ) in the world.....As I said earlier, I do not think this would happen...but it's something to be aware of....China has more power than some think....we owe them over 1.19 trillion.....they could start cashing in, instead of buying more debts....they can also flood the markets with US $....that would result in inflation etc.... We are not untouchable as some think...again, we need our allies...and telling May that the way she is dealing with Brexit would likely end hopes of a trade deal with us is no the way to go...Why are we telling them how to deal with Brexit ? Or the trade adviser telling Trudeau there's a special place in hell for people like him..( I know the administration has since apologized ) for him simply saying the same things at the G7 summit that he's been saying for months.... That's the stuff I would like to stop..it's unnecessary and makes Trump look like a complete !@#$....... I think you're letting your disdain for Trump cloud your vision of reality. These purported "allies" have gotten fat off us, all the while giving us grief on the international stage for our foreign policy. Why on earth should we do ANYTHING for them? Edited July 15, 2018 by joesixpack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 5 minutes ago, joesixpack said: I think you're letting your disdain for Trump cloud your vision of reality. Iron Maiden could easily change his screen name to "Yes, but." He appears to be a master at equivocation. Straight talk is not his forte. As far as diplomacy goes, John Kerry is his mentor. The USA is in an extremely strong position as it relates to the rest of the world. There is very little that we need that we can't supply ourselves. Our energy independence and ability to greatly influence the market gives us the ability to be the world's bully, if we choose. Trump has ended the feckless diplomacy of the Obama administration and is using the "carrot and stick" approach, which is the way to get what you want without being the obvious bully. It's about time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Maiden Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 (edited) 40 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said: Iron Maiden could easily change his screen name to "Yes, but." He appears to be a master at equivocation. Straight talk is not his forte. As far as diplomacy goes, John Kerry is his mentor. The USA is in an extremely strong position as it relates to the rest of the world. There is very little that we need that we can't supply ourselves. Our energy independence and ability to greatly influence the market gives us the ability to be the world's bully, if we choose. Trump has ended the feckless diplomacy of the Obama administration and is using the "carrot and stick" approach, which is the way to get what you want without being the obvious bully. It's about time. lol..yeah...that's me....pretending to size up someone from a few post on a football message board is unequivocally the best way to be accurate...very impressive....it's like me saying " 3rdnlng is a pretend, self proclaim psychologist who love to categorize poster in limited ideological boxes without showing any sign of broad intellectual prowess "....see...that's sounds silly doesn't it ? Do me a favor and take a look around the room you are currently in...how many thing you see are made in China vs made in the USA...? Edited July 15, 2018 by Iron Maiden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 3 minutes ago, Iron Maiden said: how many thing you see are made in China vs made in the USA...? And that's the problem...as much of a problem for them as us. See, if the CCP can't keep the economy growing there, they're going to have a VERY hard time convincing people they should remain in control. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Maiden Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 (edited) 18 minutes ago, joesixpack said: And that's the problem...as much of a problem for them as us. See, if the CCP can't keep the economy growing there, they're going to have a VERY hard time convincing people they should remain in control. There's some truth to that...yes...but I was merely responding to a previous post saying " there is very little that we need that we can't manufacture ourselves ".... Our manufactures are not capable RIGHT NOW to service all American needs.....especially at the prices the American consumer is used to pay.... It will take several years and most likely a huge turn around in terms of robotics ( which cost lots of $$ ) to be able to meet demand... Despite what some think and whether we like it or not, we need several other countries to trade with.... Don't get me wrong...I like the idea of looking at some of the trade deals we currently have and adjusting them....I just don't think the way Trump is going about it ..... trashing our allies publicly is the way to go.... you can get results without being a complete jerk...actually, you probably end up with better deals in the long run....IMO of course...;-) Edited July 15, 2018 by Iron Maiden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 15 minutes ago, Iron Maiden said: lol..yeah...that's me....pretending to size up something from a few post on a football message board is unequivocally the best way to be accurate...very impressive....it's like me saying " 3rdnlng is a pretend, self proclaim psychologist who love to categorize poster in limited idealogical boxes without showing any sign of broad intellectual prowless "....see...that's sounds silly doesn't it ? Do me a favor and take a look around the room you are currently in...how many thing you see are made in China vs made in the USA...? How many of those items can't be made in the U.S.? As far as my characterization of you, it is what you project. It would appear that nothing would please you better than to go back to the Obama way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Iron Maiden said: There's some truth to that...yes...but I was merely responding to a previous post saying " there is very little that we need that we can't manufacture ourselves ".... Our manufactures are not capable RIGHT NOW to service all American needs.....especially at the prices the American consumer is used to pay.... It will take several years and most likely a huge turn around in terms of robotics ( which cost lots of $$ ) to be able to meet demand... Despite what some think and whether we like it or not, we need several other countries to trade with.... Don't get me wrong...I like the idea of looking at some of the trade deals we currently have and adjusting them....I just don't think the way Trump is going about it ..... trashing our allies publicly is the way to go.... you can get results without being a complete jerk...actually, you probably end up with better deals in the long run....IMO of course...;-) Several of these allies aided and abetted the attempted palace coup, committing an act of war in the process. That won't be stated publicly but it happened. Trump knows it happened. May, Merkel, Marcon knows it happened. Theres more going on than it appears. But Trump isn't shitting on our alliances because he's trump or crazy or because he intends to shut everyone out and go it alone. Messages must be received and certain players must be removed or at least neutered to the point of being unable to repeat what happened in 2016. Edited July 15, 2018 by Deranged Rhino 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Maiden Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 (edited) 26 minutes ago, joesixpack said: And that's the problem...as much of a problem for them as us. See, if the CCP can't keep the economy growing there, they're going to have a VERY hard time convincing people they should remain in control. I disagree with this however...The Chinese government can withstand any rumble from their population much more efficiently than we can...we go vote every2-4 years and the candidates have to take that in consideration...Over there, Xi is President for life...and if you don't like him, you probably disappear to never be seen again... Edited July 15, 2018 by Iron Maiden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 1 minute ago, Iron Maiden said: I disagree with this however...The Chinese government can withstand any rumble from their population much more efficiently than we can...we go vote every2-4 years and the candidates have to take that in consideration...Over there, Xi is President for like...and if you don't like him, you probably disappear to never be seen again... Um, perhaps you've forgotten Tiannamen Square. I'd do some research on what it's like inside China. Their entire ability to stay in power is to continue the growth of the past two decades. Without our markets, that would simply be impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Maiden Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, joesixpack said: Um, perhaps you've forgotten Tiannamen Square. I'd do some research on what it's like inside China. Their entire ability to stay in power is to continue the growth of the past two decades. Without our markets, that would simply be impossible. Yeah...you mean when student wanted changes and the party simply put the cabash on it...while crushing protesters with their tanks ? They are still in power aren't they ? I spent time in Hong Kong and Shanghai just 2 years ago....the party is ruling with a hand of steel and is mainly revered still to this day...from what I saw of course.... Edited July 15, 2018 by Iron Maiden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 7 minutes ago, Iron Maiden said: Yeah...you mean when student wanted changes and the party simply put the cabash on it...while crushing protesters with their tanks ? They are still in power aren't they ? I spent time in Hong Kong and Shanghai just 2 years ago....the party is ruling with a hand of steel and is mainly revered still to this day...from what I saw of course.... Right. From what you saw. How many people in totalitarian states come out publically and speak their mind? You can continue to operate in fear of angering china. I refuse to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Can anyone guess why China subsidized steel production and previously put our steel industry out of business? Can anyone guess why Trump put tariffs on steel? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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