BADOLBILZ Posted December 20, 2016 Posted December 20, 2016 I agreed with you when you set out your expectations for him being judged a successful first round pick. He needs to be in that 8-12 sack range when playing a full year - that was your success criteria and I concur that is a reasonable base against which to judge. I just don't think judging him against that this year when he missed all of camp all the install and half of his rookie year is fair. If Shaq plays 14-16 games next season I will expect him to be in that range and if he isn't I think it might indicate that the Bills (and I - I had him as a top 10 player no rowing back going on here) got their talent evaluation wrong. I am happy to be held to that. I am still very confident in what I see. Yes you have been clear about your expectations. Many are intentionally vague. Short of being a bust.......one of the worst scenarios is watching a player you drafted for immediate need scuffle for a couple years then do like Melvin Ingram and put together 17 sacks combined in the last two years of his contract......not the ceiling of your expectations but teasing at the production you expected every season. That's going to end poorly either way for San Diego, IMO.
Coach Tuesday Posted December 20, 2016 Posted December 20, 2016 Not trying to shame anyone. Just pointing out that it isn't Lawson's fault that Whaley took him 19th overall even though he had a torn labrum and that it's ridiculous to expect anything productive out of him this season due to that injury. We will see what he's about in 2017 and 2018. NO ONE SAID IT WAS LAWSON'S FAULT
John from Riverside Posted December 20, 2016 Posted December 20, 2016 Yes you have been clear about your expectations. Many are intentionally vague. Short of being a bust.......one of the worst scenarios is watching a player you drafted for immediate need scuffle for a couple years then do like Melvin Ingram and put together 17 sacks combined in the last two years of his contract......not the ceiling of your expectations but teasing at the production you expected every season. That's going to end poorly either way for San Diego, IMO. Can we wait till Shaq is actually Melvin Ingram before we start calling him Melvin Ingram?
GunnerBill Posted December 20, 2016 Posted December 20, 2016 Yes you have been clear about your expectations. Many are intentionally vague. Short of being a bust.......one of the worst scenarios is watching a player you drafted for immediate need scuffle for a couple years then do like Melvin Ingram and put together 17 sacks combined in the last two years of his contract......not the ceiling of your expectations but teasing at the production you expected every season. That's going to end poorly either way for San Diego, IMO. I know I am repeating myself but I don't think he was just drafted for need. I think the Bills probably evaluated him like I did and if they did he is well worth the #19 overall pick. He was the best player on my board and I suspect on theirs and if he becomes what I and they expect then as a productive pass rusher he would be at a position worth the investment. I agree if we get Upshaw production it was a poor pick - and I was dead against Upshaw when a lot of fans wanted him. I am not as familiar with Ingram I must confess.... I haven't in the last couple of years found much cause to watch many Chargers games.
BADOLBILZ Posted December 20, 2016 Posted December 20, 2016 Can we wait till Shaq is actually Melvin Ingram before we start calling him Melvin Ingram? John we know your expectations were met when the doctor said he had all his fingers and toes.
John from Riverside Posted December 20, 2016 Posted December 20, 2016 John we know your expectations were met when the doctor said he had all his fingers and toes. LOL
BADOLBILZ Posted December 20, 2016 Posted December 20, 2016 I know I am repeating myself but I don't think he was just drafted for need. I think the Bills probably evaluated him like I did and if they did he is well worth the #19 overall pick. He was the best player on my board and I suspect on theirs and if he becomes what I and they expect then as a productive pass rusher he would be at a position worth the investment. I agree if we get Upshaw production it was a poor pick - and I was dead against Upshaw when a lot of fans wanted him. I am not as familiar with Ingram I must confess.... I haven't in the last couple of years found much cause to watch many Chargers games. Ingram is a tweener as well but more in the middle which allows him to be more versatile. He can actually play OLB or ILB in addition to being a decent pass rusher. Shaq was a DE in college and looks like a bad fit as an OLB. He would have to rush the passer better than Ingram to be as good which is why I consider him Shaq's ceiling. Ingram is just not a top pass rusher and it's underscored by being in a division where there are 3 guys that could put up 20 sacks in any given season....Miller, Mack and Houston.
Coach Tuesday Posted December 20, 2016 Posted December 20, 2016 Still hoping his ceiling is Shaun Ellis...
thebandit27 Posted December 20, 2016 Posted December 20, 2016 Who is the player you would compare to your expectations for Shaq? I get the feeling that a lot of Shaq fans have used their lack of commitment to expectations for Shaq as a disguise for their backpedaling. Like.......now it's OK that this year has been pretty much a wash. I know you aren't one of them but I am interested in what you actually expect. Well, for where they picked/played him, he'd need to be Terrell Suggs, and anything short of that would be a disappointment. My personal expectation as a comparable was Adrian Clayborn--a guy that would be at his best playing at various spots between 3T and 9T as long as he wasn't the primary focus of an opponent's pass protection. That said, I maintain that my pick would've been Myles Jack, because his upside is that of a once-in-ten-years type of LB.
BADOLBILZ Posted December 20, 2016 Posted December 20, 2016 Well, for where they picked/played him, he'd need to be Terrell Suggs, and anything short of that would be a disappointment. My personal expectation as a comparable was Adrian Clayborn--a guy that would be at his best playing at various spots between 3T and 9T as long as he wasn't the primary focus of an opponent's pass protection. That said, I maintain that my pick would've been Myles Jack, because his upside is that of a once-in-ten-years type of LB. Clayborn is an example of what I am concerned Shaq will be. Can't use your mid-first round pick on a guy like that, IMO. Even if you are otherwise stacked with great players I hate using that premium pick on such a low ceiling. Much better than Courtney Upshaw who is a bust.....basically a backup....... but much less than Melvin Ingram. Maybe Shaq raises his game with smarts and hard work but on the hoof he's not a special DL prospect. We are in agreement on Jack. And my reason is that players like Jack are really what first round picks are for.........finding potentially transcendent talents.
Saxum Posted December 20, 2016 Posted December 20, 2016 I never saw him as a 3-4 OLB either. When Rex gets fired hopefully we can bring in a 4-3 dc. Perfect fit there. Hughes-adolphus-Marcel-shaq is a very olid DL going forward. Preston-reggie-Zach at LB. Add 2 safeties and a CB and we're good to go.....as long as the DC doesn't suck. Kyle Williams will be starter in 3-4 or 4-3 next year.
GunnerBill Posted December 21, 2016 Posted December 21, 2016 We are in agreement on Jack. And my reason is that players like Jack are really what first round picks are for.........finding potentially transcendent talents. Except so far the league consensus on Jack looks right. Nothing like the same player as pre-injury. There would be equal criticism if not more by this point if that is where we had gone with our first round pick.
BADOLBILZ Posted December 21, 2016 Posted December 21, 2016 Except so far the league consensus on Jack looks right. Nothing like the same player as pre-injury. There would be equal criticism if not more by this point if that is where we had gone with our first round pick. We wouldn't be comparing him to Shaq though. Because Shaq being unproductive would not have been a surprise. As for the consensus..........I don't recall EVER hearing anyone say that they didn't think he'd be the same player. He looked good in workouts, had a 40" vertical and a 10'4" broad jump so that doesn't sound like a player who had lost athleticism or explosiveness. It's been a big surprise that he hasn't done better but I think you are creating a narrative in retrospect. The concern with Jack was that his knee would require extensive work in time, perhaps shortening his career.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted December 21, 2016 Posted December 21, 2016 can we compare him to Erik Flowers? Maybe Aaron Maybin?
John from Riverside Posted December 21, 2016 Posted December 21, 2016 can we compare him to Erik Flowers? Maybe Aaron Maybin? No as a matter of fact we cannot Players that were not good enough to even get on the field....and were physically dominated when they did make it on the field I dont see ANY of that in Lawson.....who I am seeing pushing his assignments right back into the QB
3rdand12 Posted December 21, 2016 Posted December 21, 2016 I have read the posts, and i am always late due to work. But i need to say, I called the Kid slow first couple games i saw him for the Bills. I did read after the draft what his highlighted skillset was of course. But he is picking up speed. I think it was caution more than being "slow" now.I hope they begin to move him around next year along with Adolphus. Thinking Rex wants matchups more than scheme centric.
GunnerBill Posted December 22, 2016 Posted December 22, 2016 As for the consensus..........I don't recall EVER hearing anyone say that they didn't think he'd be the same player. Not from the talking heads - no. That was the concern teams had though. The fact that the talking heads had more info on Shaq than Jack doesn't make any difference to how teams evaluated them.
ChevyVanMiller Posted December 22, 2016 Posted December 22, 2016 Shaq Lawson appears overweight, slow to react, hesitant, underwhelming power, stiff/rigid, doesn't bend or dip, & is a liability when pursuing to the edge. His midsection is doughy, and his quickness laterally is comprised by a "clod-hopper" gait. The same words could have been written about Bruce Smith in his rookie season. Get Shaq a stairstepper and he'll be fine.
dave mcbride Posted December 22, 2016 Posted December 22, 2016 (edited) Still hoping his ceiling is Shaun Ellis... ... Who was a very, very good player. I'd take that. Yes you have been clear about your expectations. Many are intentionally vague. Short of being a bust.......one of the worst scenarios is watching a player you drafted for immediate need scuffle for a couple years then do like Melvin Ingram and put together 17 sacks combined in the last two years of his contract......not the ceiling of your expectations but teasing at the production you expected every season. That's going to end poorly either way for San Diego, IMO. So ... Marcellus Wiley and his 10 vulture sacks in 2000 (his contract year)? To be fair to Wiley, he was great his first year in SD and only declined because of the onset of a serious back problem. Edited December 22, 2016 by dave mcbride
GG Posted December 22, 2016 Posted December 22, 2016 ... Who was a very, very good player. I'd take that. Yup. Lot's of myopia in this thread. Lawson wasn't only picked because Bills cut Mario. He was a wise pick because Bills lost Mario and Kyle is playing on borrowed time. To get a quality DL with the 19th pick isn't a stupid drafting strategy.
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