dayman Posted December 8, 2016 Author Posted December 8, 2016 Most of his high profile moves have backfired. Watkins deal was a monumental mistake when we could've stood pat and got a better WR. $100m to a guy who doesn't care about the game and has mental health issues another big blunder. Clay another big money miss. Inability to find a legit QB is his biggest indictment though. Roster isn't bare but hard to give Whaley more than a C-. Ability to find good street free agents saves him from a D. So, Watkins deal backfired b/c of injuries. A big deal and considered an error, but only b/c of what he gave up to take him. It's a negative, but you have admit he was trying and he wasn't wrong about the talent. Dareus is going to be our best player over the next 5 years IMO. It's impossible know that he won't have more problems, but he isn't killing people. When he is in the game it is obvious. Clay...who knows. It's entirely possible that Clay would be awesome with a more experienced passer. He blocks. He never gets any mid-range seam routes with a chance for YAC...just 5-10 yard outs and an occasional deep ball (which are usually between the hashes). QBs don't grow on trees. Dak was a stroke of luck and is playing in the most ideal situation imaginable, and we're not the only team regretting Carr.
NoSaint Posted December 8, 2016 Posted December 8, 2016 Whaley took his shot with EJ. It didnt work out. Keep trying. And he traded back to do it... so it protected against the low probability qb flopping. If you were taking a qb that year it's hard to fault him too badly on the EJ pick
KOKBILLS Posted December 8, 2016 Posted December 8, 2016 Personally i don't think he is a good GM, but he isn't a bad GM either. I think he is average and the bills records throughout the years reflects that. My biggest problem with Whaley is not finding a franchise QB and missing on too many draft picks. Drafted EJ. Passed on Derek Carr. Prescott. Gave Tyrod an unnecessary huge contract. Traded up a ton to get Sammy Watkins. His drafts are not very good. Where Whaley is good is finding guys from the scraps and making them serviceable players I hated the Sammy trade...Not because I disliked Sammy...I just don't believe in trading up like that...And if it was my pick that year, and the Bills did trade up, I would have taken Evans over Watkins...I thought Mike Evans was the best WR in that Draft class...Turns out there was one even better...But Whaley traded up, gave up a 1 and a 4 for (arguably) the 3rd best...Ouch... My main problem with Whaley is his willingness to trade Draft picks instead of collecting them...I hate that...It's a philosophy thing with me...The Bills are without a 4th this year because of it...I don't like giving up Draft picks... Other than that though I think Whaley has done OK...The Ragland injury REALLY hurt this year...Two 4th's to move up 8 spots...God I hate it...That 4th in 2016...117 overall...That was Dak Prescott right there...The Bills could have had him...But Whaley gave that 4th away to trade up for a LB who missed the whole season...Ouch again... And he traded back to do it... so it protected against the low probability qb flopping. If you were taking a qb that year it's hard to fault him too badly on the EJ pick I've never faulted them for the EJ pick because they traded down...got the extra pick...which turned out in a crazy way to be Shady... That's good Draft strategy...Just turned out EJ, like a million QB's before him, could not cut it... Good things happen when you get more picks...IMHO at least...
bobobonators Posted December 8, 2016 Posted December 8, 2016 And he traded back to do it... so it protected against the low probability qb flopping. If you were taking a qb that year it's hard to fault him too badly on the EJ pick Agreed. Just our luck too that the 2013 Draft may go down as one of the worst in NFL history for QBs. Absolutely brutal list of QBs from that draft. And EJ is probably still the best from that group (which is hardly saying much at all)
KOKBILLS Posted December 8, 2016 Posted December 8, 2016 Agreed. Just our luck too that the 2013 Draft may go down as one of the worst in NFL history for QBs. Absolutely brutal list of QBs from that draft. And EJ is probably still the best from that group (which is hardly saying much at all) He's #1 at something!!!
BuffaloRebound Posted December 8, 2016 Posted December 8, 2016 Good GM's don't waste 5 years with EJ and Tyrod as their QB. The rest is noise even if he hit on all his other big moves which he didn't.
Fadingpain Posted December 8, 2016 Posted December 8, 2016 Whaley joined the team in February of 2010 (so the '10 season on the graph). His first offseason in control was the 2013 (so full GM credit starting in '13 on the graph). Very simple point to visualize: http://www.plotvar.com/line.php?title=Bills+wins+since+2005&yaxis=Year&xvalues=05%2C+06%2C+07%2C+08%2C%2C+09%2C+10%2C+11%2C+12%2C+13%2C+14%2C+15%2C+16&serie1=Bills+Wins&values_serie1=5%2C+7%2C+7%2C+7%2C+6%2C+4%2C+6%2C+6%2C+6%2C+9%2C+8%2C+9 IDK, I'm as pissed as anyone else we still are not in the playoffs and blew that 24-9 road game against the Raiders...but I never understand the Whaley hate. We have to acknowledge that being the Bills is part of it...and he's doing better than we've been doing without him. It is highly likely we will win 8 or 9 games this year...which will keep the trend positive overall (and give Whaley only 1 losing season (6 wins in his first year) out of 4...while we had only losing seasons since at least '05). Have a look at how he's handled the QB position since running the show. That alone is grounds for some hate; throw in the Watkins deal and you have more. Don't compare the organization to past Bills horror shows; compare it to the best the NFL has to offer. That should be the standard of review.
bobobonators Posted December 8, 2016 Posted December 8, 2016 Good GM's don't waste 5 years with EJ and Tyrod as their QB. The rest is noise even if he hit on all his other big moves which he didn't. Its not 5yrs, but carry on.
KD in CA Posted December 8, 2016 Posted December 8, 2016 So, Watkins deal backfired b/c of injuries. No, it backfired because it was a dumb move. There were two other top quality WRs available in the existing draft slot if that was the position he needed to fill. Wasting a first round pick to trade up is inexcusable. But aside from that one blunder, he's done a good job. The Bills have more quality players than at almost any time in the past 20 years. But....they need a QB. If Whaley doesn't draft one in the first two days next May, he will be negligent.
BillsFan130 Posted December 8, 2016 Posted December 8, 2016 I hated the Sammy trade...Not because I disliked Sammy...I just don't believe in trading up like that...And if it was my pick that year, and the Bills did trade up, I would have taken Evans over Watkins...I thought Mike Evans was the best WR in that Draft class...Turns out there was one even better...But Whaley traded up, gave up a 1 and a 4 for (arguably) the 3rd best...Ouch... My main problem with Whaley is his willingness to trade Draft picks instead of collecting them...I hate that...It's a philosophy thing with me...The Bills are without a 4th this year because of it...I don't like giving up Draft picks... Other than that though I think Whaley has done OK...The Ragland injury REALLY hurt this year...Two 4th's to move up 8 spots...God I hate it...That 4th in 2016...117 overall...That was Dak Prescott right there...The Bills could have had him...But Whaley gave that 4th away to trade up for a LB who missed the whole season...Ouch again... Can't say I disagree too much with you. I for sure think he is an OK general manager and is not bad or not good. He does some really good things, but he also does some really bad things
nucci Posted December 8, 2016 Posted December 8, 2016 Hate, panic, anger. It's what we do. along with not winning
The Jokeman Posted December 8, 2016 Posted December 8, 2016 Here's the thing with the Watkins trade. If want to compare Watkins to Beckham then yes it was a failed trade. Yet if compare it to what the Browns acquired for it (Jason Gilbert -whose since been traded to the Steelers for a 6th Round pick, Ibraheim Campbell and Cameron Erving). It looks like the Bills did pretty well. I admit at the time of the trade I hated it since we already had guys like SJ13 and Mike Williams here. I felt a rookie WR would take some time to develop so thought gave up too much. In retrospect I'm more okay with the deal considering what Cleveland was able to produce from the trade. Of course had we stayed at pick 10 the plan would have been to draft Eric Ebron. Which probably means we could have used the money on Clay on a WR since likely would have to replace SJ13 or Mike Williams since none have done anything of late. Or maybe we would have used the pick we gave up in the Watkins trade to draft Brett Perriman, So many variables one move can have on others.
Nihilarian Posted December 8, 2016 Posted December 8, 2016 Whaley is defined by the Watkins deal. Not to mention the numerous franchise QB's that have been drafted and dealt since hes been in charge here. Y'know, the ones that are not on the Bills. Hes not that bad, but hes not that good, hes kinda like, in the middle. This is accurate as he is just like the team and that is middling. Bills fans deserve better. I don't put all the blame to the losing on Whaley as he didn't make the decision to hire Rex Ryan. Although it was his on EJ as he went and scouted him and gave his nod of approval to draft him. Then he made the precarious decision to trade two first rounders for an injury prone WR when there are other players that actually would have been worth those two first rounders in Khalil Mack, Mike Evans who is 6'5'' 231 and currently #3 in the NFL in receiving yards. I can recall right after drafting Sammy Watkins word came from the FO that the team still needed that big, tall red zone receiver. The decisions for Tyrod Taylor and Richie Incognito weren't Whaley's and the team would still be looking for a quality LG just like they are still looking for a quality RT. Plus, even most of the fan base was clamoring for a decent replacement for losing Chris Hogan to the Patriots when Watkins needed surgery for his foot this offseason. Not to mention the need for better players at the safety position. This team is 6-6 and the GM should share in the wins and losses. Rex Ryan hired off a 9-7 season should have made the team better and instead, it took a step backward mostly because of HIS defense. If Doug Whaley had even the slightest clue on which college QB to draft he would have drafted Derek Carr or even Dak Prescott. He doesn't and this team needs to find a guy that does.
BillsVet Posted December 8, 2016 Posted December 8, 2016 If Doug Whaley were GM in larger market I doubt very much if he'd survive 4 seasons without a playoff appearance. His biggest issue has been an inability to find a QB. He tried with EJM and it didn't work. Ozzie Newsome whiffed on Kyle Boller years ago, had McNair for 2 seasons, then drafted Flacco. Point is, the team is treading water. They're not getting better and they're not getting worse. Meanwhile, players are aging, contracts are closer to expiring, and they've spent a ton of money on UFA's. To be essentially an average team for 3 years running isn't good enough. I get people are going to blame Rex, but he's been more responsible for which identity this team wants to be. Part of that is Whaley's chameleon approach to team building. He changes every year or so and leaves them right back where they started. I also understand that Whaley hasn't been able to pick a HC and I don't think it's a coincidence he hasn't been close to Marrone or Rex the way John Schneider (who was picked by the HC) is with Pete Carroll in Seattle.
The Jokeman Posted December 8, 2016 Posted December 8, 2016 If Doug Whaley were GM in larger market I doubt very much if he'd survive 4 seasons without a playoff appearance. His biggest issue has been an inability to find a QB. He tried with EJM and it didn't work. Ozzie Newsome whiffed on Kyle Boller years ago, had McNair for 2 seasons, then drafted Flacco. Point is, the team is treading water. They're not getting better and they're not getting worse. Meanwhile, players are aging, contracts are closer to expiring, and they've spent a ton of money on UFA's. To be essentially an average team for 3 years running isn't good enough. I get people are going to blame Rex, but he's been more responsible for which identity this team wants to be. Part of that is Whaley's chameleon approach to team building. He changes every year or so and leaves them right back where they started. I also understand that Whaley hasn't been able to pick a HC and I don't think it's a coincidence he hasn't been close to Marrone or Rex the way John Schneider (who was picked by the HC) is with Pete Carroll in Seattle. In retrospect EJ was the best QB of his draft class, what more else could we do? Also for us to say we should have drafted Carr the year after, rarely does this happen. I mean with Goff and Wentz's struggles do you honestly think the Rams or Eagles are going to use a draft pick on a QB in 2017? Not likely. Also remember pre Whaley we were a team routinely drafting in the top 10 of drafts and now we're a team drafting in the teens to early twenties. So Whaley has improved the team despite not finding a starting QB.
papazoid Posted December 8, 2016 Posted December 8, 2016 Find a GM who values the QB position. Whaley has failed miserably.... ej manuel, thad lewis, jeff tuel, kyle orton, matt cassel, matt leinart, tyler thigpen say hello I give TT credit to REX.....without rex's input, TT would never be here.
Just Jack Posted December 8, 2016 Posted December 8, 2016 Hate, panic, anger. It's what we do. "Fear is the path to the dark side Bills Fan. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”
Mr. WEO Posted December 8, 2016 Posted December 8, 2016 Dont understand the Whaley hate either. We're moving in the right direction. Pete Carroll and Schnieder had 2 seasons to start at 7-9 before things started coming together for them. Unfortunately for us we cant make the playoffs at 7-9. Or 9-7. Or possibly even 10-6. With Pats in the division anything less than 11-5 is a wild card. But we're moving in the right direction. No more 6-10 seasons. Keep climbing. Yes, and then Carroll took Russell Wilson, who Whaley had to have some input in the Bills passing for a horrible college WR. The Bills have bigger problems than Whaley...Much bigger problems... And I have absolutely no evidence to back this up...No one has told me anything about this...But I'll continue to believe till my dying day if the HC decision had been Whaley's alone to make there is no way Rex Ryan would be the Bills HC today...That's what my gut tells me...I could certainly be wrong...But I doubt it... Why listen to your "gut"? Go back and read Whaley's own words as to how Rex was hired. This gets posted here over and over. Whaley was totally on board and part of this pulling the trigger on Rex. He has made that abundantly clear in no uncertain language.
GunnerBill Posted December 8, 2016 Posted December 8, 2016 Whaley joined the team in February of 2010 (so the '10 season on the graph). His first offseason in control was the 2013 (so full GM credit starting in '13 on the graph). Very simple point to visualize: http://www.plotvar.com/line.php?title=Bills+wins+since+2005&yaxis=Year&xvalues=05%2C+06%2C+07%2C+08%2C%2C+09%2C+10%2C+11%2C+12%2C+13%2C+14%2C+15%2C+16&serie1=Bills+Wins&values_serie1=5%2C+7%2C+7%2C+7%2C+6%2C+4%2C+6%2C+6%2C+6%2C+9%2C+8%2C+9 IDK, I'm as pissed as anyone else we still are not in the playoffs and blew that 24-9 road game against the Raiders...but I never understand the Whaley hate. We have to acknowledge that being the Bills is part of it...and he's doing better than we've been doing without him. It is highly likely we will win 8 or 9 games this year...which will keep the trend positive overall (and give Whaley only 1 losing season (6 wins in his first year) out of 4...while we had only losing seasons since at least '05). His first offseason in control was actually the 2014 offseason. 2013 was mainly Nix with Whaley taking over after FA an the draft.
Sisyphean Bills Posted December 8, 2016 Posted December 8, 2016 So, Watkins deal backfired b/c of injuries. Did you know Watkins had an injury history at Clemson? Speaking of which, the Bills do seem to be a team that tends toward the side of the spectrum where injury history isn't as important a factor. Willis McGahee might be the poster picture for that approach, but Shaq wasn't on a lot of people's boards this past year. At some point, it might make sense for someone in the building to ask if the franchise is truly getting best value for risking draft picks on damaged goods in the modern-day NFL where 1st contract and then he's gone is the general rule of roster development, or if it is a strategy that amounts to treading water.
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