26CornerBlitz Posted December 9, 2016 Posted December 9, 2016 (edited) Because we have an average QB and an average roster. That makes us an average team. A lot of people seem to think we have a really good roster, and I beg to differ. Teams like the Chiefs with an average QB and a really good roster can win more games. PS I forgot to mention a good coach as well. That's where we disagree. With better/more consistent QB play and better injury luck I see them as playoff caliber. Edited December 9, 2016 by 26CornerBlitz
DriveFor1Outta5 Posted December 9, 2016 Posted December 9, 2016 That's where we disagree. With better/more consistent QB play and better injury luck I see them as playoff caliber. I agree that we could make the playoffs with better QB play, but I think we could also make the playoffs with average QB play and a better roster. A better o line, more receiver depth, better safeties, more team discipline etc. My argument is that since the playoff drought began here are some names who started playoff games as QB: Tommy Maddox,Kelly Holcomb,Mark Sanchez,Alex Smith,Nick Foles.Tim Tebow,Jay Cutler,Rex Grossman,David Garrard,Quincy Carter, and these are just examples rather than a comprehensive list. The point is we do need to upgrade at the position, but a sixteen year drought doesn't happen if just once the roster and coaching were exceptional. They aren't. Rex was supposed to be the perfect hire as a defensive minded coach. We knew we lacked at the QB position, but a dominant defense was supposed to be in place to compensate for that. Rex has failed.
vorpma Posted December 9, 2016 Posted December 9, 2016 Clean sweep.. Everyone out. Because we have an average QB and an average roster. That makes us an average team. A lot of people seem to think we have a really good roster, and I beg to differ. Teams like the Chiefs with an average QB and a really good roster can win more games. PS I forgot to mention a good coach as well.
26CornerBlitz Posted December 9, 2016 Posted December 9, 2016 I agree that we could make the playoffs with better QB play, but I think we could also make the playoffs with average QB play and a better roster. A better o line, more receiver depth, better safeties, more team discipline etc. My argument is that since the playoff drought began here are some names who started playoff games as QB: Tommy Maddox,Kelly Holcomb,Mark Sanchez,Alex Smith,Nick Foles.Tim Tebow,Jay Cutler,Rex Grossman,David Garrard,Quincy Carter, and these are just examples rather than a comprehensive list. The point is we do need to upgrade at the position, but a sixteen year drought doesn't happen if just once the roster and coaching were exceptional. They aren't. Rex was supposed to be the perfect hire as a defensive minded coach. We knew we lacked at the QB position, but a dominant defense was supposed to be in place to compensate for that. Rex has failed. You and many others are conflating things. Sixteen years and the team as it's currently constructed should not be mentioned in the same sentence with regard to what needs to be done at this juncture. The blow it up idea is ridiculous to me based on today. The current OBD administration sure as hell isn't thinking about 16 years and they shouldn't be.
DriveFor1Outta5 Posted December 9, 2016 Posted December 9, 2016 You and many others are conflating things. Sixteen years and the team as it's currently constructed should not be mentioned in the same sentence with regard to what needs to be done at this juncture. The blow it up idea is ridiculous to me based on today. The current OBD administration sure as hell isn't thinking about 16 years and they shouldn't be. Brandon,Overdorf,and Berchtold remember plenty about the last 16 years regardless of what Pegs tries to tell us.
26CornerBlitz Posted December 9, 2016 Posted December 9, 2016 Brandon,Overdorf,and Berchtold remember plenty about the last 16 years regardless of what Pegs tries to tell us. Don't care at all because the football department is not making decisions in the context of sixteen years. You are positing as nothing more than a frustrated fan and believe me I get it.
DriveFor1Outta5 Posted December 9, 2016 Posted December 9, 2016 Don't care at all because the football department is not making decisions in the context of sixteen years. You are positing as nothing more than a frustrated fan and believe me I get it. I guess we can agree to disagree. These guys have been around forever, and have become the "good old boys" club. They hold a lot of sway in the organization. I remember reading a few articles regarding Marrone and Whaley's disputes with these guys. These guys likely still have power, and have been part of the problem.
Fadingpain Posted December 10, 2016 Posted December 10, 2016 (edited) Rex Ryan's very first words at his introductory PC: "Is this thing on? Because it's getting ready to be on. And, that's the truth, I want to thank Terry and Kim, and Russ, and Doug for selecting me." Was the reference to Russ a mere polite formality, a product of Rex not wanting to exclude top people in the organization? Perhaps. But more than likely, having just interviewed and gone through the hire process, Rex knew Russ' level of involvement and therefore included him on the gratitude list. You know why Rex did not thank Jim Overdorf, for example? Because he is firmly on the business side of the operation and had nothing to do with Rex's hiring. But rest assured Bills fans! Russ is on the business side too and has NO say or influence whatsoever in football matters, like, you know, helping to decide or influence the decision on who is our head coach. Surrender this man unto Pilate. We want Barabbas! Edited December 10, 2016 by Fadingpain
CardinalScotts Posted December 10, 2016 Posted December 10, 2016 I'm certainly not a fan of Brandon's but how exactly is he to blame for the futility we have experienced? Whaley drafts the players and Rex has alot of input as well, I'm sure. Brandon's role was predominantly in the business end of things (ticket sales, various promotions etc..) with the exception of Ralph's last couple of years when he and/or his family appointed Brandon as caretaker... That ended when the Pegula's took over the team... Before Whaley took over, Buddy Nix was running things on the football side... Buddy/Whaley drafted EJ for instance..Whaley traded up to get Watkins... If you want to assess blame start there... I'm all in favor of Pegula hiring a true football czar... 9-7, 8-8, ?-? is not futility - they are at the level of a wild card team right now. Yes I know your a wildcard team when your actually IN I get it, but so much in the NFL is schedule dependent. We act like Whaley's teams have gone 2-14, 3-13, 2-14 they are going to finish 10-6 this year
DriveFor1Outta5 Posted December 10, 2016 Posted December 10, 2016 (edited) 9-7, 8-8, ?-? is not futility - they are at the level of a wild card team right now. Yes I know your a wildcard team when your actually IN I get it, but so much in the NFL is schedule dependent. We act like Whaley's teams have gone 2-14, 3-13, 2-14 they are going to finish 10-6 this year Schedule dependent? I'm not sure if I follow. The definition of futility is pointless or useless. That's how many of us feel the regular season is since they never lead to the playoffs. It really doesn't matter if we're 5-11 or 8-8 without the playoffs. We don't get to have a parade for reaching .500. So I guess the use of the word futility is quite subjective. Put us on the field with the current wild card contenders, and actually we don't match up. I suppose we'll find out tomorrow. Edited December 10, 2016 by DriveFor1Outta5
Sisyphean Bills Posted December 10, 2016 Posted December 10, 2016 You and many others are conflating things. Sixteen years and the team as it's currently constructed should not be mentioned in the same sentence with regard to what needs to be done at this juncture. The blow it up idea is ridiculous to me based on today. The current OBD administration sure as hell isn't thinking about 16 years and they shouldn't be. What needs to be done then? Keeping the revolving door spinning at warp speed with new coaching staffs, perpetual purging and rebuilding of the roster, and reinventing the scouting/"HR" department every few years has, well, not moved the needle out of the losing in 16 years.
Fadingpain Posted December 10, 2016 Posted December 10, 2016 What needs to be done then? Keeping the revolving door spinning at warp speed with new coaching staffs, perpetual purging and rebuilding of the roster, and reinventing the scouting/"HR" department every few years has, well, not moved the needle out of the losing in 16 years. Revolving door measures made under old ownership should not be included with new ownership. It's different now. The idea would be to complete one last set of sweeping measures to sweep the place clean, insert a top man to run the organization, and then try to build high quality from the ground up. Once that process is under way, continuity should indeed be the policy. But you have to have the right people in place firing on all cylinders before you lock it down into the continuity phase. We are all paying the price for Pegula's lack of knowledge of football, and experience as an owner. The sweeping changes should long be over now with us in the build up stage. I think we will have to suck it up for an 18th year without playoffs, and then it will be blown up.
Sisyphean Bills Posted December 10, 2016 Posted December 10, 2016 Revolving door measures made under old ownership should not be included with new ownership. It's different now. The old owner relied on Russ Brandon, even "gave the keys" to his favorite toy to Brandon at the end. The new ownership has promoted Brandon to run both the Bills and the Sabres. Whaley is a holdover. Marrone would've been a holdover, but they hired another windbag when he quit. The drumbeat of losing continues unfazed. Assurances that up is down and down is up now aside, I'd like to taste the proof in the pudding.
K-9 Posted December 10, 2016 Posted December 10, 2016 We are top 10 in points scored yet blame it on the offense and QB.... That's in spite of our QB, not because of him. We would flat out dominate with a great QB.
Nihilarian Posted December 10, 2016 Posted December 10, 2016 The old owner relied on Russ Brandon, even "gave the keys" to his favorite toy to Brandon at the end. The new ownership has promoted Brandon to run both the Bills and the Sabres. Whaley is a holdover. Marrone would've been a holdover, but they hired another windbag when he quit. The drumbeat of losing continues unfazed. Assurances that up is down and down is up now aside, I'd like to taste the proof in the pudding. You're right! When this new owner first took over there was so much talk of the team hiring a football czar, there were phone calls to Bill Polian in hopes of his returning. There was also talk of the team hiring a senior NFL adviser (even the NFL suggested to Terry Pegula that he hire an adviser) and yet none of that happened and instead that smooth snake oil salesman talked himself into a promotion and keeping the status quo intact. Bills fans that think because this team might end up between 6-10 or 8-8 simply don't understand that this owner is so much under the control of Russ Brandon that after the Raider game Terry Pegula was making the same excuses you might hear from Rex Ryan, Brandon or Whaley about why the team lost. Nothing changes until this team take's a real dumpster dive like Ryan had in his final year with the Jets.
JohnC Posted December 11, 2016 Posted December 11, 2016 You're right! When this new owner first took over there was so much talk of the team hiring a football czar, there were phone calls to Bill Polian in hopes of his returning. There was also talk of the team hiring a senior NFL adviser (even the NFL suggested to Terry Pegula that he hire an adviser) and yet none of that happened and instead that smooth snake oil salesman talked himself into a promotion and keeping the status quo intact. Bills fans that think because this team might end up between 6-10 or 8-8 simply don't understand that this owner is so much under the control of Russ Brandon that after the Raider game Terry Pegula was making the same excuses you might hear from Rex Ryan, Brandon or Whaley about why the team lost. Nothing changes until this team take's a real dumpster dive like Ryan had in his final year with the Jets. The belief that a football czar would remedy the problems hindering this franchise makes little sense to me. All organizations have their own football czar: it's called the GM. Adding another layer of authority to challenge the decisions of the GM only creates more conflict and tension within the franchise. I don't understand your fixation on Russ Brandon being the bogeyman behind the curtain who is sidetracking this franchise. That isn't the case now even if it was in the past, and that is a debatable issue. Terry and Kim Pegula are new to the football business. They are not shrinking violets. If they want they can call anyone in the business and solicit input from sources outside the organization. Without a doubt as new owners they made mistakes that they wouldn't make now. In my opinion the biggest mistake Kim made was in jumping the gun in the hiring of their first HC. As I and many others have said what mostly ails this team has little to do with the structure of the organization and much more to do with elevating the talent level at the qb position. While you and so many others are focusing your attention in the men wearing the suits the real issue is finding the right person to take the snaps. That more than anything else will alter the negative tenor of the conversations dealing with this franchise and dramatically change the collective pessimistic attitude toward this franchise.
pepsicat17 Posted December 11, 2016 Author Posted December 11, 2016 (edited) The belief that a football czar would remedy the problems hindering this franchise makes little sense to me. All organizations have their own football czar: it's called the GM. Adding another layer of authority to challenge the decisions of the GM only creates more conflict and tension within the franchise. I don't understand your fixation on Russ Brandon being the bogeyman behind the curtain who is sidetracking this franchise. That isn't the case now even if it was in the past, and that is a debatable issue. Terry and Kim Pegula are new to the football business. They are not shrinking violets. If they want they can call anyone in the business and solicit input from sources outside the organization. Without a doubt as new owners they made mistakes that they wouldn't make now. In my opinion the biggest mistake Kim made was in jumping the gun in the hiring of their first HC. As I and many others have said what mostly ails this team has little to do with the structure of the organization and much more to do with elevating the talent level at the qb position. While you and so many others are focusing your attention in the men wearing the suits the real issue is finding the right person to take the snaps. That more than anything else will alter the negative tenor of the conversations dealing with this franchise and dramatically change the collective pessimistic attitude toward this franchise. Problem with this is that our GM and head coach both report to and have equal value in their opinions to the owners. That's why there needs to be a buffer to tell the owners the way forward from both opinions and which is best in a football sense for the future and not a marketing sense. Who do you think that buffer is right now at this moment? Maybe the president of the team? Edited December 11, 2016 by pepsicat17
JohnC Posted December 11, 2016 Posted December 11, 2016 Problem with this is that our GM and head coach both report to and have equal value in their opinions to the owners. That's why there needs to be a buffer to tell the owners the way forward from both opinions and which is best in a football sense for the future and not a marketing sense. Who do you think that buffer is right now at this moment? Maybe the president of the team? If the problem is that the GM and the HC have equal voices when communicating with the owner then the solution is simple: change the balance and make the GM be the primary voice. That doesn't mean that the owner can't have discussions with the HC. The owners can talk to whoever they want. The reality is that most decisions are made through a collaborative process. Getting input from a variety of sources is the norm. But in the end when it comes to the roster the GM has the final say and when it comes to coaching and strategy the HC makes the on field decisions. The central problem with this team has little to do with discord between the front office and the coaching staff. Although there being some tension between the two segments is part of the landscape. The one thing that will dramatically alter the dynamic for this fatigued franchise and give it an invigorating boost is finding a more talented qb to take the snaps. That's the primary issue!
thebandit27 Posted December 11, 2016 Posted December 11, 2016 Problem with this is that our GM and head coach both report to and have equal value in their opinions to the owners. That's why there needs to be a buffer to tell the owners the way forward from both opinions and which is best in a football sense for the future and not a marketing sense. Who do you think that buffer is right now at this moment? Maybe the president of the team? There are 15 teams with the same reporting structure. Both the coach and GM report to Pegula, as per the team's PC when Rex was hired.
pepsicat17 Posted December 11, 2016 Author Posted December 11, 2016 So if you knew nothing about mechanical engineering and suddenly found yourself the owner of one of the biggest companies in the world you wouldn't want a veteran successful proven owner of this type of company at your hip to help you determine what's best for the company? Or would just just listen to the CEO and listen to the head of the engineers and maybe someone in the "marketing" department and make your best guess? You're plan about the GM being the guy might work but our current GM doesn't seem to have that pull with the owners to be THE GUY who makes football decisions. And it's is fact that Russ was involed in the Rex hiring, so to say he has no juice anymore football wise is kinda foolish when it's a documented fact that he still has the owners ear, and was promoted in their entire organization for god's sake. You're right that many decisions are made by a convergence of many voices, but in sports that doesn't seem to work to well. Sure as **** hasn't worked for the Buffalo Bills for decades. There needs to be someone with "The Buck Stops Here" plaque literally at his desk. How anyone could look at the productivity of this organization for the past 20 years or so and say that it's working and the remnants of the old guard were doing fine, no reason to boot them out, truly is something I can't understand. There are 15 teams with the same reporting structure. Both the coach and GM report to Pegula, as per the team's PC when Rex was hired. A - How's that been working out so far for the Bills. Couldn't care about the other teams cause I'm a fan of the Billls. B - The teams PR also said Russ has no say in football decisions anymore yet was involved in hiring the first head coach of the new ownership. Generally speaking he n any business what the businesses PR team (and governments too haha) say is probably not the truth and maybe, at best, has a sliver of truth mixed in there somewhere. Rex THANKED Russ at his hiring press conference.
Recommended Posts