BringBackOrton Posted November 18, 2016 Posted November 18, 2016 If Marrone doesn't quit do they still have Schwartz?? If Drew Bledsoe never gets hurt, do we still lose a Tom Brady dynasty for 2 decades?
BmarvB Posted November 18, 2016 Posted November 18, 2016 No Surprise. Schwartz is a good DC. Rex was once a good DC but his system while sometimes effective is outdated.
GunnerBill Posted November 19, 2016 Posted November 19, 2016 I think you guys are way overrating Jim Schwartz; the 2014 Bills defense was good not great. Stats and rankings are very misleading in the NFL. I agree that Rex's defensive in Buffalo has not been impressive but I I have seen improvement since last year but injuries and stupidity (Darius) have hurt the team. The issue still goes back to the same one as its been since Philips benched Flutie, the Bills need to find a QB. That should be the top if not the only priority, The defense was top 6 in almost every major category. 3rd down %, sacks, turnovers, points per game, yards per game, passing touch downs allowed, yards per completion allowed. If that D is overrated then I'd love to see a really dominant one.
boyst Posted November 19, 2016 Posted November 19, 2016 I think you guys are way overrating Jim Schwartz; the 2014 Bills defense was good not great. Stats and rankings are very misleading in the NFL. I agree that Rex's defensive in Buffalo has not been impressive but I I have seen improvement since last year but injuries and stupidity (Darius) have hurt the team. The issue still goes back to the same one as its been since Philips benched Flutie, the Bills need to find a QB. That should be the top if not the only priority, Schwartz only had one yr with this team! One year! How can anyone build a system of defense they need to succeed in one yr? The pieces can't come together, it takes at least 2 yrs under the belt to get the defense to be above average! As proof, see Rex Ryan!
Sisyphean Bills Posted November 19, 2016 Posted November 19, 2016 Wasn't it Rex who said just get me good players? I guess by good players he meant all pros at every position for his defense to be successful.... Straw-man. No one has All Pros at every position, yet every year some defense is ranked #1. It's just reality that if a new kahuna wants to, say, run an ground-and-pound style of offense, then it doesn't really accelerate anything if the last guy running the show drafted a bunch of small WRs that aren't willing to block, OL that are solid pass protectors, etc. And it may not really help if the new head man starts off day one with a statement like, "This entire roster is pure crap. I'm getting rid of all of you." That might demotivate a few people.
Nihilarian Posted November 19, 2016 Posted November 19, 2016 Maybe he gets to put his sole focus on being the DC and doesn't have to worry about being the HC like Rex does. All pros on the Eagles from last year - Fletcher Cox and Connor Barwin All pros on the Bills from any point in their career - none Pro-Bowlers on current Eagles Defense - Fletcher Cox, Connor Barwin, Malcolm Jenkins Pro-Bowlers on current Bills Defense - Kyle Williams, Marcel Dareus (can we count him this year?) Might want to rethink the sentence after the bolded. The Eagles do not have less talent than the Bills on the defensive side of the ball. If anything they are more talented and haven't dealt with an injury to their starting S or all pro DT. I stand corrected as Fletcher Cox was the only one i saw from the 2016 starters roster. Malcolm Jenkins replaced starter Tyrann Mathieu. Perhaps I should have pointed out that the Eagles in 2015 were 28th in points allowed and 30th in yards allowed. Bill Davis was the 2015 Eagles DC and they played in a 3-4 alignment. Schwartz has done a masterful job as the Eagles DC this year and like others have pointed out it didn't take a few games, half a season, a full season or a season and a half for the players to understand the scheme. Anyway you slice it Rex Ryan has so far screwed up a great and talented defensive roster from 2014. It was Ryan and Whaley that made the roster changes by letting Leodis McKelvin, Ron Brooks, Bradham, Searcy, Stephan Charles leave the team. Even Bacarri Rambo leaving in 2015 looks like a bad move as that Bills secondary stinks this year. At this point, I wouldn't hire either Rex Ryan or his brother Rob Ryan to be a DC and if they can't turn this defense leading the league in sacks into a unit that can stop even average QB's they are both done in the league after this year.
The Big Cat Posted November 19, 2016 Posted November 19, 2016 I stand corrected as Fletcher Cox was the only one i saw from the 2016 starters roster. Malcolm Jenkins replaced starter Tyrann Mathieu. Perhaps I should have pointed out that the Eagles in 2015 were 28th in points allowed and 30th in yards allowed. Bill Davis was the 2015 Eagles DC and they played in a 3-4 alignment. Schwartz has done a masterful job as the Eagles DC this year and like others have pointed out it didn't take a few games, half a season, a full season or a season and a half for the players to understand the scheme. Anyway you slice it Rex Ryan has so far screwed up a great and talented defensive roster from 2014. It was Ryan and Whaley that made the roster changes by letting Leodis McKelvin, Ron Brooks, Bradham, Searcy, Stephan Charles leave the team. Even Bacarri Rambo leaving in 2015 looks like a bad move as that Bills secondary stinks this year. At this point, I wouldn't hire either Rex Ryan or his brother Rob Ryan to be a DC and if they can't turn this defense leading the league in sacks into a unit that can stop even average QB's they are both done in the league after this year. schwartz did a fantastic job. on this we all agree. but the 'rex ruined a great defense' doesn't follow. schwartz made an average defense great. and they've since returned to mediocrity under rex. tbat's a much more accurate account the 2013 defense was ranked 20th in points allowed and 28th against the run. the 2014 defense is the exception. granted, rex hasn't thus far been able to continue that with his own scheme. but let's not pretened like he "dismantled" something
Nihilarian Posted November 19, 2016 Posted November 19, 2016 schwartz did a fantastic job. on this we all agree. but the 'rex ruined a great defense' doesn't follow. schwartz made an average defense great. and they've since returned to mediocrity under rex. tbat's a much more accurate account the 2013 defense was ranked 20th in points allowed and 28th against the run. the 2014 defense is the exception. granted, rex hasn't thus far been able to continue that with his own scheme. but let's not pretened like he "dismantled" something For whatever reason, he certainly dismantled that 2015 pass rush enough so the team went from 1st in the NFL in sacks to 31st in the NFL in sacks. I'd say that qualifies as "dismantled"!
GunnerBill Posted November 19, 2016 Posted November 19, 2016 schwartz did a fantastic job. on this we all agree. but the 'rex ruined a great defense' doesn't follow. schwartz made an average defense great. and they've since returned to mediocrity under rex. tbat's a much more accurate account the 2013 defense was ranked 20th in points allowed and 28th against the run. the 2014 defense is the exception. granted, rex hasn't thus far been able to continue that with his own scheme. but let's not pretened like he "dismantled" something I agree with you this is a more accurate description. It was the coaching that made the 2014 D great. It focused on letting our players do what they do best.
HT02 Posted November 19, 2016 Posted November 19, 2016 What I don't get is why so many Bills fans keep saying that defense was overrated. That defense was #4 overall in yards and points but they were also the #1 team in the NFL in passing TD's allowed, #3 in passing yards allowed. This was with Gilmore and McKelvin at CB. Look at some of the QB's he defeated that season! Cutler, Tannehill, Stafford, Bridgewater, Vick, Geno 2x, Hoyer / Manziel, Aaron Rodgers in his MVP season who went 17 of 42 for 185 yards and 2 INTs! Against Manning in Denver, the Bills didn't win but held Peyton to 14 of 20 for 173 yards, 2 INT's and that year Manning threw for 4827 yards, 39 TD's! Then, in that last game against the Patriots Belichick benched Brady more because he didn't want him hurt for the playoffs and because he was stinking it up against Schwartz's defense! Brady had 48% of the Patriots snaps and he played in the entire first half. Brady's stats 8 of 16 for 80 yards! with a rate of 64.6. When was the last time you saw Tom Brady go 8 for 16 for 80 yards and no TD's! To put that in perspective Brady threw for 27 of 37 for 361, 4 TD's in that first game. I think Buffalo wins that game if Brady played the entire game and it had some meaning for both teams. Sure, that 2014 defense had let downs. That Raiders game in which Derek Carr had a 3rd down and 22 and he completes a 51-yard pass to Andre Holmes! Pure luck! He beat Corey Coleman. If anything let down that 2014 team is was Marrone's-Hackett's offense with virtually no run game the entire year with Orton at QB. In that Raiders game, the Bills ran 13 times for 13 yards and Spiller was tackled behind the LoS every time he touched the ball. How pathetic is that! Now, go take a look at that 2016 Eagle defense and count how many all pro's on it compared to the 2016 Buffalo Bills. It's clear that Jim Schwartz is doing more with less talent. While in Buffalo he not only got the best out of every defender, he also was able to get some to overachieve. I'm not saying it was a bad defense it just wasn't a great one as people are remembering and describing it. You didn't mention the San Diego game which as equally awful for that team at home. The second Dolphin game in Miami, a game the Bills needed badly, the defense was not very good in the second half. The Patriot game at home was embarrassing and a great defense doesn't allow that very bad Oakland team to win the game. It was a good defense that might have gotten better but it was nowhere as good as last year's Denver defense or the recent Seahawk defenses which are both very god defenses. Schwartz only had one yr with this team! One year! How can anyone build a system of defense they need to succeed in one yr? The pieces can't come together, it takes at least 2 yrs under the belt to get the defense to be above average! As proof, see Rex Ryan! I agree with you that the defense looked very promising my point is that is wasn't a great defense. It was good and had promise but wasn't great t Have to disagree. The 2014 defense was great. A defense that shuts down Aaron Rodgers when he is having a great year even by his standards and gets you to 9 wins (okay, would have been 8 if Brady played the last game) with a horribly anemic offense led by a QB that was ready to retire before the year even ended is a great defense. The Oakland game is really the only bad game I can think of from that season. The Patriot game in Buffalo was awful as was the games against San Diego, Miami in Miami they gave up a bunch of points to a pretty bad Texan's team. It was good but not great
Nihilarian Posted November 19, 2016 Posted November 19, 2016 On another note, this year Ryan isn't calling the plays and Dennis Thurman is running his defense for him. We all see the difference in teams as this year the Bills again lead the league in sacks and have the leading sacker. So that reversed completely under Thurman and that lack of sacks in 2015 wasn't just because of the players and more on the run-stopping scheme Ryan chose to run that year. However, This year because the team is so concerned about the run defense and they are sending a heavy pass rush all the time they are leaving the CB's in man coverage and those CB's are getting eaten alive game after game. Just food for thought here. Rex Ryan used to blitz 55% of the QB dropbacks with the NY Jets in 2009 and that number kept reducing every year up until he left NY. That heavy blitzing the Jets did worked for a while until opposing offenses learned how to beat the blitz and a lot of today's NFL QB's are masters at beating the blitz. When teams blitz it usually leaves a defender man on man and QB's now delight in seeing man coverage and beat it. Yeah, so kinda the reason as to why Ryan's defense is getting killed in the secondary this year with two CB's that did a great job the previous two seasons. What this shows me is the 2016 Buffalo Bills coaching staffs inability to build and field a strong defense that can both stop the run and pass at a high level. The Bills lost to Joe Flacco who is 5-4, Ryan Fitzpatrick who is 2-6, Ryan Tannehill who is 5-4, Tom Brady who is 4-1, Russell Wilson who is 6-2-1. The Bills beat Carson Palmer who is 3-4-1 this year. Colin Kaepernick who is 0-4, Case Keenum who is 4-5 and an injured 3rd string QB in Jacoby Brissett who is 1-1. If the team just beats the QB's with a losing record that's Andy Dalton 3-5-1, Blake Bortles 2-7, Derek Carr 6-2, Ben Rothlisberger 4-4, Josh McCown 0-2, Ryan Tannehill 5-4, Ryan Fitzpatrick 2-6 = another 8-8 season! This team will need to overachieve on defense to finish better than last years record. From what I've seen of the defense this year so far that even that record might be a stretch. My take is the league has passed by Rex Ryan's version of a 3-4 as he has yet to beat an elite NFL QB with a winning record the last two years.
Nihilarian Posted November 19, 2016 Posted November 19, 2016 I'm not saying it was a bad defense it just wasn't a great one as people are remembering and describing it. You didn't mention the San Diego game which as equally awful for that team at home. The second Dolphin game in Miami, a game the Bills needed badly, the defense was not very good in the second half. The Patriot game at home was embarrassing and a great defense doesn't allow that very bad Oakland team to win the game. It was a good defense that might have gotten better but it was nowhere as good as last year's Denver defense or the recent Seahawk defenses which are both very god defenses. I agree with you that the defense looked very promising my point is that is wasn't a great defense. It was good and had promise but wasn't great t The Patriot game in Buffalo was awful as was the games against San Diego, Miami in Miami they gave up a bunch of points to a pretty bad Texan's team. It was good but not great That 2014 Buffalo Bills defense wasn't world beater great as in the 2000 Ravens or 84 Bears or even recent Seahawks, Broncos great. However, they were the best darn defense this franchise has seen since 2003 and the 2014 team was better against the pass. If that 2014 team had any kind of a balanced offense with a better run game they would have made the playoffs and won more games. I think you have it all wrong as to why the Bills lost games to the Chargers 10-22, Dolphins 9-22, Texans 17-23, Chiefs 13-17. As the only team to score more than 26 points against that Schwartz defense all year was Brady and the Patriots. I recall that Chargers game and they kept trying to run the ball 36 attempts for 83 yards while Phillip Rivers kept pulling 1st downs out of his arse by passing. Look at the Chargers drives TD, FG, Punt, FG, TD, Punt, Punt, Punt, Punt, Punt. If the Bills OC hadn't gone pass happy asking EJ to throw 39 times and ran the ball more than 22 times for 87 yards the Bills might have done a better job of moving the ball. The Chargers only scored 22 points so It's not like a domination. The Bills offense let them down as they only scored 10 points. Again in that second Miami game with only 19 rushes for 54 yards vs 39 passes for 193 yards and the Bills offense only scored 9 points by field goals. The offense let the team down again! Against the Texans is was that JJ Watt pick six that was the game changer. Against the Chiefs remember the three turnovers by the Bills offense that killed that game? That 2014 Bills defense compared to the 2015-2016 Bills defense was great and if this year's team had that year's defense I think the only game they lose is against the Patriots! The Bills would be 8-1.
fridge Posted November 19, 2016 Posted November 19, 2016 (edited) schwartz did a fantastic job. on this we all agree. but the 'rex ruined a great defense' doesn't follow. schwartz made an average defense great. and they've since returned to mediocrity under rex. tbat's a much more accurate account the 2013 defense was ranked 20th in points allowed and 28th against the run. the 2014 defense is the exception. granted, rex hasn't thus far been able to continue that with his own scheme. but let's not pretened like he "dismantled" something There are some good points here. I'm not sure the 2014 season was an exception, considering Schwartz is excelling yet again, but that's not that important... What is important is that the front office made a mistake, and a lot of people commented initially on the absurdity of starting fresh on defense when that was what we were best at. I like Whaley, at least his acquisitions and his ability to build a team, but... he needed to have more gumption during the Rex hire. If he wasn't on board with the hire, he should have really used his role as a GM and made a stand. It might have gotten him fired, but sticking to his gut would eventually prove true and he'd rebound and probably be held in higher regard shortly thereafter. If he was on board, he and every front office member that decided Rex was the answer should be fired. I'm serious. It was a remarkably poor decision. Now, for The Big Cat - this isn't because I think Rex Ryan is necessarily terrible (he's very average - I assume we can agree on that) - it's because he absolutely was NOT the right coach for our team at that time. We needed to have continuity on defense. The FO should have tried to see what it would take to keep Schwartz as a DC and find an offensive minded HC. In the event that Schwartz was being difficult and was making waves about being disrespected, we should have made him the HC, with the caveat that he focus more on gameday on defense. We then could have recruited whomever at OC. Even if you don't agree with my plan, at the very least it is a plan...I'm not sure you can say the same about what the Bills ended up doing. I think Russ Brandon, Pegula and any other person in the interview room saw dollar signs with Rex Ryan, believed the hype and did not think about the best interest of the 2015 Buffalo Bills roster. Edit: a typo Edited November 19, 2016 by fridge
fridge Posted November 19, 2016 Posted November 19, 2016 Yea but season ticket sales are soaring and we are a national brand now. !@#$ winning. National brand! In between that thought and "don't let that man leave the building," I'm not sure there was time to consider anything else like winning.
The Big Cat Posted November 19, 2016 Posted November 19, 2016 There are some good points here. I'm not sure the 2014 season was an exception, considering Schwartz is excelling yet again, but that's not that important... What is important is that the front office made a mistake, and a lot of people commented initially on the absurdity of starting fresh on defense when that was what we were best at. I like Whaley, at least his acquisitions and his ability to build a team, but... he needed to have more gumption during the Rex hire. If he wasn't on board with the hire, he should have really used his role as a GM and made a stand. It might have gotten him fired, but sticking to his gut would eventually prove true and he'd rebound and probably be held in higher regard shortly thereafter. If he was on board, he and every front office member that decided Rex was the answer should be fired. I'm serious. It was a remarkably poor decision. Now, for The Big Cat - this isn't because I think Rex Ryan is necessarily terrible (he's very average - I assume we can agree on that) - it's because he absolutely was NOT the right coach for our team at that time. We needed to have continuity on defense. The FO should have tried to see what it would take to keep Schwartz as a DC and find an offensive minded HC. In the event that Schwartz was being difficult and was making waves about being disrespected, we should have made him the HC, with the caveat that he focus more on gameday on defense. We then could have recruited whomever at OC. Even if you don't agree with my plan, at the very least it is a plan...I'm not sure you can say the same about what the Bills ended up doing. I think Russ Brandon, Pegula and any other person in the interview room saw dollar signs with Rex Ryan, believed the hype and did not think about the best interest of the 2015 Buffalo Bills roster. Edit: a typo Exception for the Bills. Not for Schwartz. For whatever reason, he certainly dismantled that 2015 pass rush enough so the team went from 1st in the NFL in sacks to 31st in the NFL in sacks. I'd say that qualifies as "dismantled"! Uh...
GunnerBill Posted November 19, 2016 Posted November 19, 2016 Exception for the Bills. Not for Schwartz. I think I misunderstood you initially on this as well... so your clarification earlier was useful.
OhDozeBills Posted November 19, 2016 Posted November 19, 2016 If it ain't broke, don't fix it. This was my biggest problem when Pegulas hired Rex, we knew the top 5 D was going to change. Defense wasn't our issue, and it was a big mistake bringing a defensive minded coach who would change what our strength was. The Rex hire will set this franchise back 5 years.
HT02 Posted November 19, 2016 Posted November 19, 2016 That 2014 Buffalo Bills defense wasn't world beater great as in the 2000 Ravens or 84 Bears or even recent Seahawks, Broncos great. However, they were the best darn defense this franchise has seen since 2003 and the 2014 team was better against the pass. If that 2014 team had any kind of a balanced offense with a better run game they would have made the playoffs and won more games. I think you have it all wrong as to why the Bills lost games to the Chargers 10-22, Dolphins 9-22, Texans 17-23, Chiefs 13-17. As the only team to score more than 26 points against that Schwartz defense all year was Brady and the Patriots. I recall that Chargers game and they kept trying to run the ball 36 attempts for 83 yards while Phillip Rivers kept pulling 1st downs out of his arse by passing. Look at the Chargers drives TD, FG, Punt, FG, TD, Punt, Punt, Punt, Punt, Punt. If the Bills OC hadn't gone pass happy asking EJ to throw 39 times and ran the ball more than 22 times for 87 yards the Bills might have done a better job of moving the ball. The Chargers only scored 22 points so It's not like a domination. The Bills offense let them down as they only scored 10 points. Again in that second Miami game with only 19 rushes for 54 yards vs 39 passes for 193 yards and the Bills offense only scored 9 points by field goals. The offense let the team down again! Against the Texans is was that JJ Watt pick six that was the game changer. Against the Chiefs remember the three turnovers by the Bills offense that killed that game? That 2014 Bills defense compared to the 2015-2016 Bills defense was great and if this year's team had that year's defense I think the only game they lose is against the Patriots! The Bills would be 8-1. I was at the Chargers game, watch that one again and tell me that was a good defensive performance. They couldn't stop the Dolphins at all during the second half of the year and the Texans were an awful team. The defense played well against poor teams and Green Bay but they also had a good chance to lose that game if you recall but the GB receivers outright dropped a few passes when they were wide open. The term great should be reserved for the best of the best not a team that didn't come up big in big spots. I agree the offense was really bad but great defenses find a way to make stops in pressure situations.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted November 19, 2016 Posted November 19, 2016 Basically people screaming "We should have drafted Brady" but with Schwartz. Fail. Not even in the zip code. Closest real debate is shoulda kept Lynch.
GunnerBill Posted November 20, 2016 Posted November 20, 2016 I was at the Chargers game, watch that one again and tell me that was a good defensive performance. They couldn't stop the Dolphins at all during the second half of the year and the Texans were an awful team. The defense played well against poor teams and Green Bay but they also had a good chance to lose that game if you recall but the GB receivers outright dropped a few passes when they were wide open. The term great should be reserved for the best of the best not a team that didn't come up big in big spots. I agree the offense was really bad but great defenses find a way to make stops in pressure situations. The San Diego game is an interesting one because at the time I felt like the D didn't have a good day. I have watches that game back. We were excellent on 3rd down defense that day. Problem was we lost the field position battle and the offensive game plan was a mess.
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