The Big Cat Posted November 16, 2016 Posted November 16, 2016 Back pedaling when asked for a link and I provided you with one, i see. ha, right. back pedaling. saying that it was never going to happen, that it was never a certainty and your rebuttal was speculation. back pedaling.
r00tabaga Posted November 16, 2016 Posted November 16, 2016 In half a season But the Bills need 3+ years to fully implement Rex's legendary defense The same legendary defense that hasn't been good since last decade Kind of sad really. Rex can no longer coaches defense ans we let go our best coordinator in 10 + years You are racist. I decided not to read whatever you wrote because of this.
section122 Posted November 16, 2016 Posted November 16, 2016 So you really are going to be that person that tries to deny that this isn't Rex Ryans Defense it is Dennis Thurmans? Ha ha ha Denial is strong with a lot of people. This is Rex's defense. It absolutely is Rex's defense. Run by Dennis Thurman. Just like 2013 was Rex's defense run by Mike Pettine. It really isn't a hard concept to grasp (look I can be condescending too! ). If Rex was the DC we could have this conversation but he isn't, he is the HC. It is an apples to oranges comparison. I posted for you how poorly Schwartz's defense was while he was a HC. What is the difference? Are you telling me it wasn't his d? Schwartz is a great DC and I was sad to see him leave. He oversaw a defense that performed fantastically, no argument from me. He was incredibly lucky with regards to injury and had intimate knowledge of 4 of the opponents that were faced that year. That defense exceeded expectations. Last years did the opposite. However there is no guarantee that he would stay as the DC and he wasn't a very good HC.
CountDorkula Posted November 16, 2016 Posted November 16, 2016 It absolutely is Rex's defense. Run by Dennis Thurman. Just like 2013 was Rex's defense run by Mike Pettine. It really isn't a hard concept to grasp (look I can be condescending too! ). If Rex was the DC we could have this conversation but he isn't, he is the HC. It is an apples to oranges comparison. I posted for you how poorly Schwartz's defense was while he was a HC. What is the difference? Are you telling me it wasn't his d? Schwartz is a great DC and I was sad to see him leave. He oversaw a defense that performed fantastically, no argument from me. He was incredibly lucky with regards to injury and had intimate knowledge of 4 of the opponents that were faced that year. That defense exceeded expectations. Last years did the opposite. However there is no guarantee that he would stay as the DC and he wasn't a very good HC. I'm sorry what?
Nihilarian Posted November 16, 2016 Posted November 16, 2016 It absolutely is Rex's defense. Run by Dennis Thurman. Just like 2013 was Rex's defense run by Mike Pettine. It really isn't a hard concept to grasp (look I can be condescending too! ). If Rex was the DC we could have this conversation but he isn't, he is the HC. It is an apples to oranges comparison. I posted for you how poorly Schwartz's defense was while he was a HC. What is the difference? Are you telling me it wasn't his d? Schwartz is a great DC and I was sad to see him leave. He oversaw a defense that performed fantastically, no argument from me. He was incredibly lucky with regards to injury and had intimate knowledge of 4 of the opponents that were faced that year. That defense exceeded expectations. Last years did the opposite. However there is no guarantee that he would stay as the DC and he wasn't a very good HC. Rex Ryan called the defensive plays last season and this year he delegated that responsibility to Dennis Thurman. You are correct that it is his defense! The bigger question is how many years is this team going to need to keep using the first few picks in the draft on defensive players until he finds the players that excel in his defense? He did spend a first round pick for his defense every year in NY for the Jets and they never did get back to that lofty number one status.. or even top 5 after the first few years. Jim Schwartz did manage to take a 0-16 team to 2-14 the first year, to a 6-10 his second year and in his third season, the Lions went to the playoffs at 10-6! That is a pretty darn good run with a team that didn't win a game the year before he took over. The difference being that Schwartz built that Lions team and made it better. While Rex Ryan inherited an already 9-7 team and made it better on defense for three years and then crashed to 4-12 his final year. I wouldn't call Ryan a better head coach than Schwartz because Ryan hasn't built a winning team in Buffalo after a year and a half.
GunnerBill Posted November 16, 2016 Posted November 16, 2016 No. This is a false and alternate reality that posters have clung to. It was never the case. So again, I don't understand the point of this thread, if the crux of the analysis rests on things that didn't/would never have happened. Otherwise, it's sour grapes, crying about things that don't fit what you think should have happened, regardless of whether it could. Link? I don't have a link but I have an extremely good source. Everything I said at the time about the situation has checked out. That Jackson wanted Schwartz and that the Bills had hin under contract are both facts. And regardless... all I want the Rex lovers the admit is that Schwartz was a loss the Bills and they won't because it exposes what came after for what it is.
MDH Posted November 16, 2016 Posted November 16, 2016 Here are my posts from the other thread. Schwartz is a very good dc. You can't compare his numbers to Rex because Rex is the HC. If you want to say that Schwartz is a better DC than Dennis Thurman I don't think anyone will take an issue with it. Stop with this false correlation. Look at Schwartz's d rankings while a HC and compare those to Rex. I already did the work for you and it is right here. Rex is a better HC than Schwartz as shown by their track record. Rex hasn't been a DC for almost 10 years so we can't really compare them as DCs. Rex has said straight out that this is his D. There really is no disputing it when it comes from the HC's mouth.
The Big Cat Posted November 16, 2016 Posted November 16, 2016 (edited) I don't have a link but I have an extremely good source. Everything I said at the time about the situation has checked out. That Jackson wanted Schwartz and that the Bills had hin under contract are both facts. And regardless... all I want the Rex lovers the admit is that Schwartz was a loss the Bills and they won't because it exposes what came after for what it is. Just because Jackson (whom the Bills didn't hire, so the point is !@#$ing moot) wanted Schwartz doesn't mean Schwartz would have stayed. Also, for the price of 0-10 Hue Jackson? May be keeping Schwartz would have been worth it. May be. We had no QB, we had no Shady. The revisionist history saying Schwartz was locked and loaded to stay on at DC and if he had we would have been great is an insurmountably unprovable premise that fans have convinced themselves of/now judge the current regime by. And since treating this fantasy as a reality has now motivated 100+ responses to Schwartz's (unsurprising) success elewhere, I remain at a loss as to why. I don't understand why we're clamoring over false/alternate realities. On the other hand: Of course losing Schwartz was a loss. Nobody is suggesting it wasn't Edited November 16, 2016 by The Big Cat
section122 Posted November 16, 2016 Posted November 16, 2016 I'm sorry what? He was very lucky when it came to injuries. The following year both Kyle and Aaron Williams missed a good chunk of time. As we can see they are both major contributors to this defense. He had knowledge of 4 teams on the schedule because we played the NFC North that year. He had played against 3 of those teams twice a year for many years and coached the 4th. Rex Ryan called the defensive plays last season and this year he delegated that responsibility to Dennis Thurman. You are correct that it is his defense! The bigger question is how many years is this team going to need to keep using the first few picks in the draft on defensive players until he finds the players that excel in his defense? He did spend a first round pick for his defense every year in NY for the Jets and they never did get back to that lofty number one status.. or even top 5 after the first few years. Jim Schwartz did manage to take a 0-16 team to 2-14 the first year, to a 6-10 his second year and in his third season, the Lions went to the playoffs at 10-6! That is a pretty darn good run with a team that didn't win a game the year before he took over. The difference being that Schwartz built that Lions team and made it better. While Rex Ryan inherited an already 9-7 team and made it better on defense for three years and then crashed to 4-12 his final year. I wouldn't call Ryan a better head coach than Schwartz because Ryan hasn't built a winning team in Buffalo after a year and a half. Why did you stop after the 3rd season with Schwartz? He was there for 2 more years and his teams went 4-12 (crash and burn using your words) and 7-9. In 5 years as a HC he had 1 winning season. Rex in 7 years has had 2 losing seasons. Surely you see a difference there. Rex has said straight out that this is his D. There really is no disputing it when it comes from the HC's mouth. It absolutely is his d and I have said as much. Just like it was Schwartz's d when he was the HC in Det. If we are truly going to compare them lets look at there D rankings while both were HC. Schwartz went 32, 21, 23, 13, and 16th ranked defenses over his 5 years. Why the disparity? It is because as the HC even if it is your d you don't have the same level of responsibility, input, and control as you do when you are the DC. I truly get the disdain for Rex. However this comparison between Schwartz as a DC and Rex as the HC is poorly constructed.
GunnerBill Posted November 16, 2016 Posted November 16, 2016 Just because Jackson (whom the Bills didn't hire, so the point is !@#$ing moot) wanted Schwartz doesn't mean Schwartz would have stayed. Also, for the price of 0-10 Hue Jackson? May be keeping Schwartz would have been worth it. May be. We had no QB, we had no Shady. The revisionist history saying Schwartz was locked and loaded to stay on at DC and if he had we would have been great is an insurmountably unprovable premise that fans have convinced themselves of/now judge the current regime by. And since treating this fantasy as a reality has now motivated 100+ responses to Schwartz's (unsurprising) success elewhere, I remain at a loss as to why. I don't understand why we're clamoring over false/alternate realities. On the other hand: Of course losing Schwartz was a loss. Nobody is suggesting it wasn't I believe we would have won more games but that is only opinion. I have never presented that as anything else. And hey, I like the guy, so I am pleased he is having success elsewhere. I actually liked him as a Head Coach.... he lost his way at the end in Detroit but his first 3 years he gave a team that had been soft for so long a real edge. I have never fantasised about having him back. The ship has sailed, but his success elsewhere is noteworthy.
The Big Cat Posted November 16, 2016 Posted November 16, 2016 (edited) I believe we would have won more games but that is only opinion. I have never presented that as anything else. And hey, I like the guy, so I am pleased he is having success elsewhere. I actually liked him as a Head Coach.... he lost his way at the end in Detroit but his first 3 years he gave a team that had been soft for so long a real edge. I have never fantasised about having him back. The ship has sailed, but his success elsewhere is noteworthy. I believe the defense would have been better...in the fantasy scenario. But given the possibility that Fred/CJ (and not Shady) would have stayed on at RB and that ??? would have been the QB, I don't know how anyone can begin to speculate the quantity of wins. Edited November 16, 2016 by The Big Cat
Big Gun Posted November 16, 2016 Posted November 16, 2016 IMO, had the Bills kept Schwartz and made him HC they would be a better team and further along than they are with Rex. I think the defense without a doubt would have been better both last year and this year. Welp, hindsight is 20/20, and they can't do anything about it now.
GunnerBill Posted November 16, 2016 Posted November 16, 2016 I believe the defense would have been better...in the fantasy scenario. But given the possibility that Fred/CJ (and not Shady) would have stayed on at RB and that ??? would have been the QB, I don't know how anyone can begin to speculate the quantity of wins. We won 9 games with Kyle / EJ and a cast of misfits.
Nihilarian Posted November 16, 2016 Posted November 16, 2016 Why did you stop after the 3rd season with Schwartz? He was there for 2 more years and his teams went 4-12 (crash and burn using your words) and 7-9. In 5 years as a HC he had 1 winning season. Rex in 7 years has had 2 losing seasons. Surely you see a difference there. I was merely pointing out that Rex Ryan inherited an already winning team at 9-7 and then went 9-7, 11-5 to 8-8, 6-10, 8-8, 4-12. That looks like only two winning seasons to me. Ryan also inherited a 9-7 team in Buffalo that many people had thought had enough talent to make the playoffs in 2015. If anything the offense should have been the weakest part of the team as that Bills defense had led the NFL in sacks in 2013, 2014 and was #4 overall in 2014. Instead, it was the defense that crapped the bed in 2015 going 15th in points allowed and 19th in yards allowed and the worst sack total in the history of the franchise. Schwartz inherited a 0-16 team and built a playoff team in three seasons going 2-14, 6-10, 10-6, 4-12, and finally 7-9 to end his five years in Detroit. I don't follow the Lions that closely so I can't say for certain what happened in Detroit. Although, as I recall his teams did have the very same problems as Ryan's with far too many player penalties. The only other area of concern is that Schwartz should have replaced his DC after that 2012 4-12 season. Inheriting a winning team at 9-7 is a huge difference over inheriting a 0-16 team and getting the players to buy into your system. The lions hadn't seen the playoffs since 2000 before Schwartz. It remains to be seen what Schwartz would do if given another chance at being an NFL HC. We know what Ryan's second chance looks like as he went 8-8 and ruined an already good defense because it didn't fit his scheme in 2015. Now it needs more upgrades for the CB position...among others. Gee, both Darby, and Gilmore looked more than good enough last year when given enough support by the safeties. Now suddenly the team needs two lockdown corners.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted November 16, 2016 Posted November 16, 2016 PHOENIX -- Hue Jackson knows not to get his hopes up for coaching jobs. Considered a commodity for many years, he has interviewed for several gigs that have gone to somebody else. Even so, Jackson felt confident about his chances to become the Buffalo Bills' head coach. The Cincinnati Bengals offensive coordinator thought he aced his interview with the Bills and fit the mold owners Terry and Kim Pegula and General Manager Doug Whaley put forth. "They wanted to find someone to leave the defense in place because they were very good there and really help on the offensive side of the ball, help with the decision of the quarterback," Jackson said Wednesday at the Super Bowl media center. Jackson said he "absolutely" would have retained defensive coordinator Jim Schwartz. http://buffalonews.com/2015/01/28/hue-jackson-gives-insight-bills-interview-process-absolutely-kept-jim-schwartz/ Your move, Cat. Game set and match on this crusade
The Big Cat Posted November 16, 2016 Posted November 16, 2016 Game set and match on this crusade because the guy who didn't get hired speculated about his willingness to bring back a dc he didn't know would join him? okay.
BringBackOrton Posted November 16, 2016 Posted November 16, 2016 because the guy who didn't get hired speculated about his willingness to bring back a dc he didn't know would join him? okay. Was Schwartz going to not show up? He was under contract. Please stop embarassing yourself.
The Big Cat Posted November 16, 2016 Posted November 16, 2016 Was Schwartz going to not show up? He was under contract. Please stop embarassing yourself. You need to sit down before you fall down, junior. There's a reason your feeble attempts at being clever go entirely ignored.
BringBackOrton Posted November 16, 2016 Posted November 16, 2016 You need to sit down before you fall down, junior. There's a reason your feeble attempts at being clever go entirely ignored. I think you just made my point.
The Big Cat Posted November 16, 2016 Posted November 16, 2016 I think you just made my point. There's a first time for everything. Glad somebody finally could.
Recommended Posts