Stupid election backlash

[LeviF]

Someone posted on FB that because Trump is considering Patraeus as SOS who gave classified info to his mistress can now STFU about Hillary's email. It was followed by libs posting how disgusting it was that Trump would consider him. I posted "so let me get this straight. Someone who is careless with classified info is not fit for the position of SOS but is fit for the position of POTUS?" Killed that thread real quick.

 

Someone I know was talking about Trump's tweet re: flag burning, calling for punishment for it:

 

Them: "Can you believe that Trump wants to punish people who burn the flag?"

Me: "You mean he would have supported that flag-burning bill that Hillary co-sponsored?"

Them: "..."

 

Either these are some funny coincidences or Trump is having a lot of fun making the left trip over their own shoelaces.

[Benjamin Franklin]

The recount won't make a difference (I 100% hope because if this count was wrong, we are in trouble), but that doesn't waive the bigger issue: Russia played games in our elections.

 

It hacked officials and disseminated emails in order to do something to our election process. The media gobbled up the leaked and almost entirely unverfied emails as true and factual. Mostly the Republicans benefitted from this and they used the emails as gospel in their campaigns. (I have zero doubt that when the shoes get reversed, the Republicans will cry foul--doubt anyone else here disagrees.)

 

Set aside the 2016 election and outcome and think about this. It's really really bad, and we shouldn't be making deals with the country that did it: We should be on deep freeze diplomatic DEFCON 1 with Russia. I'm with Mitt. Russia needs to be on notice.

 

Would anyone disagree? This is really a massive story coming from this election and instead we're talking about Trump's Twitter.

[Doc]

 

 

Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

Both Hillary and Patraeus were very dumb with sensitive information. Personally i don't think either is fit. I have as much or more respect for old people than anyone but let's face it, they are prone to doing stupid things with technology. Add to that Hillary's desire to hide her correspondence......I don't think the General had that intent at least not to the same degree.....add to that that they both are prone to honey traps,,,,GP with the broad and Hillary with Huma.....and neither should be SOS IMO.

 

Do I like GP? Sure. But he effed up. Do I like Hillary? Do I think she had nefarious intent that GP didn't? Do I think her transgressions were far greater than his? None of those answers really matters because two wrongs don't make a right.

 

If the email scandal investigations were truly over then Trump is right not to start them again. It stinks to high heaven and lap dog Comey sure helped, but over is over. The Comey swamp should be drained though. On the flip side he should not shut down any ongoing investigation of either the email or especially the Clinton Foundation.

 

I agree. Can't claim one is fit and the other isn't.

[4merper4mer]

The recount won't make a difference (I 100% hope because if this count was wrong, we are in trouble), but that doesn't waive the bigger issue: Russia played games in our elections.

 

It hacked officials and disseminated emails in order to do something to our election process. The media gobbled up the leaked and almost entirely unverfied emails as true and factual. Mostly the Republicans benefitted from this and they used the emails as gospel in their campaigns. (I have zero doubt that when the shoes get reversed, the Republicans will cry foul--doubt anyone else here disagrees.)

 

Set aside the 2016 election and outcome and think about this. It's really really bad, and we shouldn't be making deals with the country that did it: We should be on deep freeze diplomatic DEFCON 1 with Russia. I'm with Mitt. Russia needs to be on notice.

 

Would anyone disagree? This is really a massive story coming from this election and instead we're talking about Trump's Twitter.

 

 

Assuming Russia did this because Hillary said so is something I'll put aside for the moment.

 

While I agree Russia is a threat despite Mitt being laughed out of the building for it 4 years ago, this incident is only part of the bigger threat which is computer security in general. Take for granted that it was the Russians this time. Who is to say it won't be China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, or even private interests next time? Obviously Canada is too dumb but there are thousands of potential culprits out there. And define "next time". There is no reason it has to be during an election. If someone wanted to take down a specific politician, or leader of some sort, it would not have to be while they were running.

 

As for the authenticity of the emails....common man. They were real. Even some of the authors verified that. Some said "no comment" or similar. I don't recall anyone saying "that was totally fake" without it being refuted. With all the people that end up in chains of emails, it will be difficult for anyone to hide behind saying someone manipulated something.

 

Email isn't the only "hack" either. The dude with the camera catching people plotting crap or doing illegal stuff isn't going away. It is only going to get more prevalent. Things don't just "go away" like they used to....because far more is recorded electronically today than has ever been recorded in human history. Nixon's tapes were just over 40 years ago. The picture of Gary Hart on the boat was what, 10 years later? They were both harbingers. The amount that is recorded out there now as opposed to then is barely imaginable.....and it is only going to get far bigger.

 

If anything was unfair to Hillary, the DNC and their minions in the press, it was that all of the leaked information was about them. They did what they did and that comes with a far greater risk of being found out than it ever has. Maybe their side was too late or stupid to dig it up on the opposition but that won't last. More information = more chances to dirty up an opponent, which is still a path to votes.

 

It's a big issue and it is not going away. Even if the governments in the US get their acts all cleaned up security wise ....lolololololol.....there is so much electronic communication going on that someone, somewhere will be hacked. And despite the press being moths to any flame, they still need to remain free. A truly and fully informed electorate, as usual, is the best answer. Oh, and the other answer is clean politicians. Good luck with both.

[Tiberius]

 

 

Assuming Russia did this because Hillary said so is something I'll put aside for the moment.

 

While I agree Russia is a threat despite Mitt being laughed out of the building for it 4 years ago, this incident is only part of the bigger threat which is computer security in general. Take for granted that it was the Russians this time. Who is to say it won't be China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, or even private interests next time? Obviously Canada is too dumb but there are thousands of potential culprits out there. And define "next time". There is no reason it has to be during an election. If someone wanted to take down a specific politician, or leader of some sort, it would not have to be while they were running.

 

As for the authenticity of the emails....common man. They were real. Even some of the authors verified that. Some said "no comment" or similar. I don't recall anyone saying "that was totally fake" without it being refuted. With all the people that end up in chains of emails, it will be difficult for anyone to hide behind saying someone manipulated something.

 

Email isn't the only "hack" either. The dude with the camera catching people plotting crap or doing illegal stuff isn't going away. It is only going to get more prevalent. Things don't just "go away" like they used to....because far more is recorded electronically today than has ever been recorded in human history. Nixon's tapes were just over 40 years ago. The picture of Gary Hart on the boat was what, 10 years later? They were both harbingers. The amount that is recorded out there now as opposed to then is barely imaginable.....and it is only going to get far bigger.

 

If anything was unfair to Hillary, the DNC and their minions in the press, it was that all of the leaked information was about them. They did what they did and that comes with a far greater risk of being found out than it ever has. Maybe their side was too late or stupid to dig it up on the opposition but that won't last. More information = more chances to dirty up an opponent, which is still a path to votes.

 

It's a big issue and it is not going away. Even if the governments in the US get their acts all cleaned up security wise ....lolololololol.....there is so much electronic communication going on that someone, somewhere will be hacked. And despite the press being moths to any flame, they still need to remain free. A truly and fully informed electorate, as usual, is the best answer. Oh, and the other answer is clean politicians. Good luck with both.

You don't think the FBI getting involved in the election was a corrupt act?

 

The FBI should would never have been involved in Weiner's slimy actions if his wife wasn't Hillary's aid.

[Chef Jim]

You don't think the FBI getting involved in the election was a corrupt act?

 

The FBI should would never have been involved in Weiner's slimy actions if his wife wasn't Hillary's aid.

 

So the FBI doesn't investigate child porn/sexual abuse or online predators?

[GaryPinC]

The recount won't make a difference (I 100% hope because if this count was wrong, we are in trouble), but that doesn't waive the bigger issue: Russia played games in our elections.

 

It hacked officials and disseminated emails in order to do something to our election process. The media gobbled up the leaked and almost entirely unverfied emails as true and factual. Mostly the Republicans benefitted from this and they used the emails as gospel in their campaigns. (I have zero doubt that when the shoes get reversed, the Republicans will cry foul--doubt anyone else here disagrees.)

 

Set aside the 2016 election and outcome and think about this. It's really really bad, and we shouldn't be making deals with the country that did it: We should be on deep freeze diplomatic DEFCON 1 with Russia. I'm with Mitt. Russia needs to be on notice.

 

Would anyone disagree? This is really a massive story coming from this election and instead we're talking about Trump's Twitter.

Thank God for Wikileaks to confirm what many of us already knew. As 4merper4mer alludes to, Podesta and the Dems would have gone to extraordinary lengths to deny and disprove the emails to save Hilary's campaign. Instead they gave us crickets. Wasserman-Schulz resigned.

 

It's not really, really, bad if it's factual. It's the truth, no matter how or where it came out. It's a lesson in cybersecurity that didn't compromise national security. If these were false propagandas then I agree with you. The bigger issue for me right now is the false news stories spread over social media. That needs action the most.

[Benjamin Franklin]

 

 

Assuming Russia did this because Hillary said so is something I'll put aside for the moment.

 

 

Thank God for Wikileaks to confirm what many of us already knew. As 4merper4mer alludes to, Podesta and the Dems would have gone to extraordinary lengths to deny and disprove the emails to save Hilary's campaign. Instead they gave us crickets. Wasserman-Schulz resigned.

 

It's not really, really, bad if it's factual. It's the truth, no matter how or where it came out. It's a lesson in cybersecurity that didn't compromise national security. If these were false propagandas then I agree with you. The bigger issue for me right now is the false news stories spread over social media. That needs action the most.

 

You give credit to wIkileaks but the hacking was from Russian intelligence, and assume the dissemination was too. I don't care about the party affected. My concern, and it's one I hope everyone would share, is that foreign intelligence hacked into emails and tried to manipulate our election.

 

I don't believe Russia hacked "because Hillary said so." And 4mer--you're no better than Gator to preface your entire post, which was substantive, by opening with that sort of nonsense.

 

"The U.S. Intelligence Community (USIC) is confident that the Russian Government directed the recent compromises of e-mails from US persons and institutions, including from US political organizations. The recent disclosures of alleged hacked e-mails on sites like DCLeaks.com and WikiLeaks and by the Guccifer 2.0 online persona are consistent with the methods and motivations of Russian-directed efforts. These thefts and disclosures are intended to interfere with the US election process. Such activity is not new to Moscow—the Russians have used similar tactics and techniques across Europe and Eurasia, for example, to influence public opinion there. We believe, based on the scope and sensitivity of these efforts, that only Russia's senior-most officials could have authorized these activities."

Edited December 1, 2016 by Benjamin Franklin

[Tiberius]

 

So the FBI doesn't investigate child porn/sexual abuse or online predators?

They do this for every alleged case of a dude sending a message to a teen? Ya right.

[Chef Jim]

They do this for every alleged case of a dude sending a message to a teen? Ya right.

 

Ah so you're privy to all the details of this particular case. Well then pardon me for questioning your reasoning. Carry on........

[grinreaper]

You give credit to wIkileaks but the hacking was from Russian intelligence, and assume the dissemination was too. I don't care about the party affected. My concern, and it's one I hope everyone would share, is that foreign intelligence hacked into emails and tried to manipulate our election.

 

I don't believe Russia hacked "because Hillary said so." And 4mer--you're no better than Gator to preface your entire post, which was substantive, by opening with that sort of nonsense.

 

"The U.S. Intelligence Community (USIC) is confident that the Russian Government directed the recent compromises of e-mails from US persons and institutions, including from US political organizations. The recent disclosures of alleged hacked e-mails on sites like DCLeaks.com and WikiLeaks and by the Guccifer 2.0 online persona are consistent with the methods and motivations of Russian-directed efforts. These thefts and disclosures are intended to interfere with the US election process. Such activity is not new to Moscow—the Russians have used similar tactics and techniques across Europe and Eurasia, for example, to influence public opinion there. We believe, based on the scope and sensitivity of these efforts, that only Russia's senior-most officials could have authorized these activities."

You criticize 4mer and then post a quoted paragraph without providing a link?

[GaryPinC]

 

 

You give credit to wIkileaks but the hacking was from Russian intelligence, and assume the dissemination was too. I don't care about the party affected. My concern, and it's one I hope everyone would share, is that foreign intelligence hacked into emails and tried to manipulate our election.

 

I don't believe Russia hacked "because Hillary said so." And 4mer--you're no better than Gator to preface your entire post, which was substantive, by opening with that sort of nonsense.

 

"The U.S. Intelligence Community (USIC) is confident that the Russian Government directed the recent compromises of e-mails from US persons and institutions, including from US political organizations. The recent disclosures of alleged hacked e-mails on sites like DCLeaks.com and WikiLeaks and by the Guccifer 2.0 online persona are consistent with the methods and motivations of Russian-directed efforts. These thefts and disclosures are intended to interfere with the US election process. Such activity is not new to Moscow—the Russians have used similar tactics and techniques across Europe and Eurasia, for example, to influence public opinion there. We believe, based on the scope and sensitivity of these efforts, that only Russia's senior-most officials could have authorized these activities."

So intelligence has no real proof, just feel strongly that they played a role based on similarities and patterns. I can accept that. Do you really think we don't attempt to do the same thing to them? Was this false information they were spreading? I feel strongly that it wasn't. The DNC and HRC got busted big time and they had no defense. It lost them the election because it was the truth.

 

But let's also not forget about Seth Rich. https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/wikileaks-offers-reward-in-killing-of-dnc-staffer-in-washington/2016/08/09/f84fcbf4-5e5b-11e6-8e45-477372e89d78_story.html?utm_term=.fe41466edc76

 

Assange refused to confirm him as a leak but singled him out and Wikileaks is offering a reward for his killer's capture. To me, that's a pretty strong pattern that he played some role in all this. Was he a Russian spy? Or is this more complex than just "the Russians did it"?

[4merper4mer]

 

 

And 4mer--you're no better than Gator to preface your entire post, which was substantive, by opening with that sort of nonsense.

 

 

So the substance should be ignored because you didn't like my first sentence?

 

None of the other stuff I said was worthy of being addressed? Even though it is all true, has been playing out and will continue to play out?

 

No other country would ever do this? No other private actors?

 

Get serious dude. You're focusing on the tree and ignoring the forest. This was child's play compared to what is coming and it won't all be from Russia. Some of it will be unavoidable. This could have been avoided if, you know, the press hadn't colluded with the democratic party.

[Benjamin Franklin]

You criticize 4mer and then post a quoted paragraph without providing a link?

 

I quoted the USIC, which is evident from the quote. Not HuffPo or Breitbart. Talk about missing the point.

[grinreaper]

I quoted the USIC, which is evident from the quote. Not HuffPo or Breitbart. Talk about missing the point.

Then you should have provided a link so that we can be assured that you aren't cherry picking.

[Benjamin Franklin]

 

So the substance should be ignored because you didn't like my first sentence?

 

Didn't say that

 

None of the other stuff I said was worthy of being addressed?

 

Didn't say that.

 

No other country would ever do this? No other private actors?

 

Didn't say that.

 

Get serious dude. You're focusing on the tree and ignoring the forest.

 

Wroooong.

 

This could have been avoided if, you know, the press hadn't colluded with the democratic party.

 

Wroong. And childish.

 

Cybersercuity or "cyber" as our future president awkwardly refers to it, needs to be a yuge priority in the coming years. The ability of the Anonymous's of the world to wreak havoc is real and clear. Against them, security and following through and treating them like terrorists is warranted if/when they meddle.

 

So I am not ignoring your point. Mine was slightly different. In this case, a state actor was meddling in our electoral process, and the US hasn't done anything under Obama except issue a statement, and our next president is giving Russia's leader googley eyes.

 

So my concern is in the case of a state actor, we should be acting like this was an act of borderline war/sabotage/attack. And we're not, which is incredibly weak and troubling.

[Deranged Rhino]

So intelligence has no real proof, just feel strongly that they played a role based on similarities and patterns. I can accept that. Do you really think we don't attempt to do the same thing to them? Was this false information they were spreading? I feel strongly that it wasn't. The DNC and HRC got busted big time and they had no defense. It lost them the election because it was the truth.

 

But let's also not forget about Seth Rich. https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/wikileaks-offers-reward-in-killing-of-dnc-staffer-in-washington/2016/08/09/f84fcbf4-5e5b-11e6-8e45-477372e89d78_story.html?utm_term=.fe41466edc76

 

Assange refused to confirm him as a leak but singled him out and Wikileaks is offering a reward for his killer's capture. To me, that's a pretty strong pattern that he played some role in all this. Was he a Russian spy? Or is this more complex than just "the Russians did it"?

 

There is no smoking gun tying Russia directly to any of the hacks or election meddling. If there was, any number of the alphabet agencies would have dropped it. But they didn't because the truth is the most damaging hacks came from people inside the US intelligence services themselves (which is what Assange heavily implied numerous times). The leaks came/continue to come from a section of intelligence services who have broken away from the narrative being created by the State Department. Pushing Russia as the culprit behind these hacks is a way of covering up the fracture inside the US's own intelligence services.

 

That's the real story -- but we can't report on that. The ramifications of such an admission would shatter the confidence of many Americans in cornerstone institutions which are already under fire by the various populist movements. It's safer to give the public a boogeyman to keep them afraid and asking the wrong questions while the State Department ties off their own leak(s).

 

To date none, zero, nada of the wikileaks releases have been proven to have been tampered with or falsified in anyway despite claims by major news outlets that the documents can't be trusted. CNN even went as far as to warn its viewers that it was illegal to read the wikileaks documents on their home computers and thus they should rely on CNN to read and interpret the documents for them.

 

Had even one document been proven to be edited and or tampered with, all of wikileaks' credibility would be flushed away. It would have been pounced on by the current administration and HRC's campaign and used to cement the bullshite case they're constructing against Moscow.

 

But it hasn't happened. Not even after Assange was taken out... yeah, I said it. Let's be real honest here, Assange is likely dead or in custody and has been for over a month. He's been "missing" with two only paltry excuses for proof of life offered -- a TV interview and a radio interview -- neither of which stand up to even the most simple examination of their contents. Do you think it's just a coincidence that the whole pizzagate witchhunt/hoax/psy-op/hopefully-made up horror story started after Assange was taken off the board?

 

Of course it wasn't. They plugged one leak, used his outfit as a shell to distribute a hoax designed to confuse and distract the folks digging through the emails and to start the war on "fake news" sites. It's a continuation of the same war on democracy that's been roiling since 2001 in DC.

 

The powers that be have been pushing Russia as the monolithic bad guy since 2013 when we really picked up our proxy war against them in Syria. The amount of red-baiting and neo-Mcarthyism in the media and public discourse is off the charts -- mind you none of it is verified and most of it is designed to cover up our own bad actions in various areas (war crimes in Syria, supporting and arming AQ rebels throughout the ME, coups in the Ukraine and the massive corruption exposed through the wikileaks emails of both the DNC and the CF).

 

Russia is a geopolitical foe, no question. But people need to wake up and understand the propaganda being pushed. It's not just coming from Russia though clearly some is. Our own State Department is the biggest culprit though, as it's been working overtime to control our media on issues in Syria, Ukraine, let alone the election and its fallout.

 

It's only going to get worse. I've used this quote often but it bears repeating for those who might forget:

 

"We'll know our disinformation campaign is complete when everything the American public believes is false."

William Casey, CIA Director under Reagan.

 

They want you confused, angry and looking for someone to blame other than themselves. That way you're easier to control.

[Benjamin Franklin]

Then you should have provided a link so that we can be assured that you aren't cherry picking.

 

Here, but maybe more importantly, try keeping up on the news for god's sake.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Benjamin Franklin

[Chef Jim]

 

Cybersercuity or "cyber" as our future president awkwardly refers to it, needs to be a yuge priority in the coming years. The ability of the Anonymous's of the world to wreak havoc is real and clear. Against them, security and following through and treating them like terrorists is warranted if/when they meddle.

 

So I am not ignoring your point. Mine was slightly different. In this case, a state actor was meddling in our electoral process, and the US hasn't done anything under Obama except issue a statement, and our next president is giving Russia's leader googley eyes.

 

So my concern is in the case of a state actor, we should be acting like this was an act of borderline war/sabotage/attack. And we're not, which is incredibly weak and troubling.

 

And you give us **** for responding to Gator.

[Doc]

There is no smoking gun tying Russia directly to any of the hacks or election meddling. If there was, any number of the alphabet agencies would have dropped it. But they didn't because the truth is the most damaging hacks came from people inside the US intelligence services themselves (which is what Assange heavily implied numerous times). The leaks came/continue to come from a section of intelligence services who have broken away from the narrative being created by the State Department. Pushing Russia as the culprit behind these hacks is a way of covering up the fracture inside the US's own intelligence services.

 

That's the real story -- but we can't report on that. The ramifications of such an admission would shatter the confidence of many Americans in cornerstone institutions which are already under fire by the various populist movements. It's safer to give the public a boogeyman to keep them afraid and asking the wrong questions while the State Department ties off their own leak(s).

 

To date none, zero, nada of the wikileaks releases have been proven to have been tampered with or falsified in anyway despite claims by major news outlets that the documents can't be trusted. CNN even went as far as to warn its viewers that it was illegal to read the wikileaks documents on their home computers and thus they should rely on CNN to read and interpret the documents for them.

 

Had even one document been proven to be edited and or tampered with, all of wikileaks' credibility would be flushed away. It would have been pounced on by the current administration and HRC's campaign and used to cement the bullshite case they're constructing against Moscow.

 

But it hasn't happened. Not even after Assange was taken out... yeah, I said it. Let's be real honest here, Assange is likely dead or in custody and has been for over a month. He's been "missing" with two only paltry excuses for proof of life offered -- a TV interview and a radio interview -- neither of which stand up to even the most simple examination of their contents. Do you think it's just a coincidence that the whole pizzagate witchhunt/hoax/psy-op/hopefully-made up horror story started after Assange was taken off the board?

 

Of course it wasn't. They plugged one leak, used his outfit as a shell to distribute a hoax designed to confuse and distract the folks digging through the emails and to start the war on "fake news" sites. It's a continuation of the same war on democracy that's been roiling since 2001 in DC.

 

The powers that be have been pushing Russia as the monolithic bad guy since 2013 when we really picked up our proxy war against them in Syria. The amount of red-baiting and neo-Mcarthyism in the media and public discourse is off the charts -- mind you none of it is verified and most of it is designed to cover up our own bad actions in various areas (war crimes in Syria, supporting and arming AQ rebels throughout the ME, coups in the Ukraine and the massive corruption exposed through the wikileaks emails of both the DNC and the CF).

 

Russia is a geopolitical foe, no question. But people need to wake up and understand the propaganda being pushed. It's not just coming from Russia though clearly some is. Our own State Department is the biggest culprit though, as it's been working overtime to control our media on issues in Syria, Ukraine, let alone the election and its fallout.

 

It's only going to get worse. I've used this quote often but it bears repeating for those who might forget:

 

"We'll know our disinformation campaign is complete when everything the American public believes is false."

William Casey, CIA Director under Reagan.

 

They want you confused, angry and looking for someone to blame other than themselves. That way you're easier to control.

 

This. Russia was a ruse to get people riled-up about Trump being in cahoots with them.