d_wag Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 TD has done this as well (McGee/Winfield being one example). Also, TD has shown the nutz to hold the line on the likes of Wiley, Cowart and Winfield and the net result is that our D is for the better. 252507[/snapback] i think this is where we disagree........i would rather not have to "hold the line" vs. guys like this.........i would rather see guys like this offered deals WELL IN ADVANCE of their impending free agency........this is what the eagles do........as a result, they are not forced into inflated deals due to market pressure.........they show faith in the player, give them their fat signing bonuses early, and get them locked in to REASONABLE DEALS.....that way, you don't have to overpay for anyone........
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 i think this is where we disagree........i would rather not have to "hold the line" vs. guys like this.........i would rather see guys like this offered deals WELL IN ADVANCE of their impending free agency........this is what the eagles do........as a result, they are not forced into inflated deals due to market pressure.........they show faith in the player, give them their fat signing bonuses early, and get them locked in to REASONABLE DEALS.....that way, you don't have to overpay for anyone........ 252516[/snapback] And what makes you think TD won't do that with Clements?
d_wag Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 And what makes you think TD won't do that with Clements? 252518[/snapback] because he didn't do it with peerless, winfield, or jennings.......
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 because he didn't do it with peerless, winfield, or jennings....... 252519[/snapback] None of whome DESERVED the money they wanted. You're nuts if you think Peerless Price or Winfield would have taken less. TD TRIED to lock these guys up before their contracts expired and they wouldn't play ball. They wanted to be FA so they could cash in.
BillsGuyInMalta Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 because he didn't do it with peerless, winfield, or jennings....... 252519[/snapback] Yet he did do it with Moulds and Schobel...not like he never does it.
d_wag Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 None of whome DESERVED the money they wanted. You're nuts if you think Peerless Price or Winfield would have taken less. TD TRIED to lock these guys up before their contracts expired and they wouldn't play ball. They wanted to be FA so they could cash in. 252528[/snapback] so your telling me peerless wouldn't have taken less before his breakout season? so your telling me winfield wouldn't have taken less to stick around but philly can convince BOTH of their corners to sign very reasonable extensions? sorry man, i ain't buying it........it's not about the money they signed for, but what we could have got them for a year or two years in advance of their contracts expiring.......teams like the eagles pull deals like this all the time and don't overpay........it's all about getting to them before they have breakout seasons.........to late on clements by the way - he's already had his breakout year.........
d_wag Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 Yet he did do it with Moulds and Schobel...not like he never does it. 252529[/snapback] i have given him credit on moulds and schobel.......but still, 2 out of 5 isn't a great ratio when it comes to retaining good, young talent........
ajzepp Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 None of whome DESERVED the money they wanted. You're nuts if you think Peerless Price or Winfield would have taken less. TD TRIED to lock these guys up before their contracts expired and they wouldn't play ball. They wanted to be FA so they could cash in. 252528[/snapback] Exactly.....TD did approach the player and/or the agent for sure in Winfield's case prior to his last season. I remember reading it in Bills Digest in AW's own diary thing. There is no friggin way that AW is worth the bling that Minnesota threw his way. If a player is determined to go for max dollars, there is nothing that TD is going to be able to do prior to them hitting the market. Some of you come almost imply that TD is some sort of idiot......get real.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 so your telling me peerless wouldn't have taken less before his breakout season? so your telling me winfield wouldn't have taken less to stick around but philly can convince BOTH of their corners to sign very reasonable extensions? sorry man, i ain't buying it........it's not about the money they signed for, but what we could have got them for a year or two years in advance of their contracts expiring.......teams like the eagles pull deals like this all the time and don't overpay........it's all about getting to them before they have breakout seasons.........to late on clements by the way - he's already had his breakout year......... 252534[/snapback] The year before his breakout season was the FIRST year of TD's tenure! If you can hop into the wayback machine, you'll ALSO remember that that was the year Moulds' contract was up. The Bills were in DEEP cap hell. And yet somehow they were supposed to come up with a huge chunk of change for a guy who has, since his FA move to atlanta, done ZIP?!?! Come on man, I know you know better than that.
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 Exactly.....TD did approach the player and/or the agent for sure in Winfield's case prior to his last season. I remember reading it in Bills Digest in AW's own diary thing. There is no friggin way that AW is worth the bling that Minnesota threw his way. If a player is determined to go for max dollars, there is nothing that TD is going to be able to do prior to them hitting the market. Some of you come almost imply that TD is some sort of idiot......get real. 252538[/snapback] Add to the AW story that TD and AW's agent were apparently in the midst of final discussions to get him signed before the '03 season when Ainsley Battle up and retired after the Bills had signed him to replace HenryJones/Raion Hill/Jenkins/Coy Wire/Chad Cota at SS. We were down to 3 safeties when we needed 4 and Bill Belicheck misread and mismanaged the Milloy contract. The supply was low (Milloy was the only former Pro Bowl S on the market) and the demand was high enough (the Bears also had a safety need and cap room) and TD actually made a high ball offer that many in TSW complained about and scooped up Milloy for a price some though was too high (he was worth overpaying for in my view because of our safety need). The effect of this signing (and AW acknowledged it) was that AW went on the market rather than being resigned as some complain.
Buftex Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 Yeah, cause TD hasn't signed any of the free agents he's targeted since he's been here.......Come on, man.....there is a difference between 'bargain rate' and market value. TD is not trying to underpay players. He simply believes in paying them what they are worth - fair market value. I totally agree with that approach. 252297[/snapback] Not surprisingly, you missed my point completely. If TD didn't take such a hard-line approach with all of these guys, he might actually get them at a bargain rate, by showing he is interested, early on. His track record seems to be, "okay, this guys is a free agent at the end of this year, so I will draft his replacement, and let him be the one who comes to me and ask to come back...if he doesn't, oh well, we really wanted him back, but he didn't seem interested...." It has been this way with nearly every free agent of consequence. I am not necessarily condemning TD, and I agree he does a tremendous job of targeting FA's and signing them. But, whose to say he is not overpaying them? Pat Williams, in particular, was a player, who I believe could have been had a very fair price, if TD had played his hand right. Once he hits the FA market, some team will offer him too much (more than the Bills could have signed him for earlier) and he will be an ex-Bill...
Fan in Chicago Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 The year before his breakout season was the FIRST year of TD's tenure! If you can hop into the wayback machine, you'll ALSO remember that that was the year Moulds' contract was up. The Bills were in DEEP cap hell. And yet somehow they were supposed to come up with a huge chunk of change for a guy who has, since his FA move to atlanta, done ZIP?!?! Come on man, I know you know better than that. 252543[/snapback] And here is another point - how could TD know before the breakout year that PP would be worth much (if anything) ? This is weird. If TD had signed him to a long term contract and PP had cra**ed out, we would be all on his case saying TD should have waited to see if PP would ever pan out for us. Once he did have his breakout year, PP started likening himself to Jerry Rice in his prime and wanted big bucks. So, ofcourse, TD let him walk. d_wag, let me ask you something, would you sign Josh Reed today to a long term contract ? As it sits right now, he may continue his slide downward or have a breakout year next year. We dont know and this was the case with PP also. I believe TD does a great job negotiating and completely trust him. I am sure he has a back-up plan for every one (BATNA in negotiating terms, best alternative to a negotiated agreement).
d_wag Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 The year before his breakout season was the FIRST year of TD's tenure! If you can hop into the wayback machine, you'll ALSO remember that that was the year Moulds' contract was up. The Bills were in DEEP cap hell. And yet somehow they were supposed to come up with a huge chunk of change for a guy who has, since his FA move to atlanta, done ZIP?!?! Come on man, I know you know better than that. 252543[/snapback] huge chunk? a nice signing bonus is all it would have taken........that is the most important number, and that is then prorated over the length of the deal, keeping the first year cap number very low....... it is obvious we missed him in '04 (you disagree?) and that, if he was signed to an extension before his breakout season, he would fit in very well with the current squad....... but hey, if you like this strategy, to each his own........like you said, it works for the pats........i just wanted to clarrify that the reason it also works for the eagles is because they lock up their good young players VERY EARLY and if they didn't do that they wouldn't have the flexiablity to let their vets go........
Rico Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 i think this is where we disagree........i would rather not have to "hold the line" vs. guys like this.........i would rather see guys like this offered deals WELL IN ADVANCE of their impending free agency........this is what the eagles do........as a result, they are not forced into inflated deals due to market pressure.........they show faith in the player, give them their fat signing bonuses early, and get them locked in to REASONABLE DEALS.....that way, you don't have to overpay for anyone........ 252516[/snapback] Maybe you weren't around for the 2003 season. How in the blue hell can you justify giving anyone (other than maybe TH & Moorman) a raise after that mess? TD is doing the right thing, & I wouldn't be surprised at all to see some players like Nate & McGee get extended WELL IN ADVANCE of their impending free agency... BASED ON PERFORMANCE.
todd Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 I don't like seeing this. Whenever Pat was out of the lineup, we were ran on. I'm actually more disappointed in Pat than TD/Bills. He wants 5 million per year?! at his age? While his buddy Sam, who is better and more versatile, is getting paid 2 per? http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/foot...s.ap/index.html 252253[/snapback] I'd like to look at the formations we were in when we were run on. My guess is both Pat and Sam were out when we were run on. I think our defense is flexible enough to absorb the loss of Williams, although I think it would hurt a bit. With Sam under contract, we have the option of running more of the 3-4 sets we ran a bit last year with Posey rushing the passer like he did in Houston. We've got the skill at linebacker and safety to do it for sure.
todd Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 Should have drafted Vince Wilfork last year, then there wouldn't be a problem. Bills will be fine without him 252449[/snapback] ?? I don't get it. I'm amazed at the "shoulda drafted XXX player" posts that still go on here.
todd Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 because he didn't do it with peerless, winfield, or jennings....... 252519[/snapback] Ya know, it really takes two to tango. We didn't do it with peerless and it was friggin brilliant. Peerless is a POS and would have wanted too much money. Winfield is great, but he was overpaid and our defense had more interceptions WITHOUT him. And you are forgetting that TD actually did offer both Jennings and Williams contracts BEFORE training camp last year. Let's not rewrite history.
todd Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 i have given him credit on moulds and schobel.......but still, 2 out of 5 isn't a great ratio when it comes to retaining good, young talent........ 252536[/snapback] Give me a friggin break! Two out of five is a GREAT ratio when retaining young talent. Expecially when it has been shown that Peerless isn't as great as expected. You also forget that he extended Travis, which allowed us to be in a position to trade him this year. You seem to be rewriting history just to fit your argument.
d_wag Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 d_wag, let me ask you something, would you sign Josh Reed today to a long term contract ? As it sits right now, he may continue his slide downward or have a breakout year next year. We dont know and this was the case with PP also. I believe TD does a great job negotiating and completely trust him. I am sure he has a back-up plan for every one (BATNA in negotiating terms, best alternative to a negotiated agreement). 252566[/snapback] ah, your one step ahead of me.........i was going to save this one until the summer when we have a better idea of available cap dollars, but yes, i have been watching the "josh reed blows" comments for quite some time and biting my tongue for the most part....... i would pop a 3-4M bonus in front of josh on a 5 year deal and see if he bites.......total value of the deal -- 11-12M........ this would increase josh's cap hit by about 1M........ if josh has a breakout season, we now have him locked in long-term at a bargain rate......... flame away boys, flame away.........and then watch josh go out, have a great season, and walk out our door while you all cry "we just can't afford him......he's greedy".........
d_wag Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 And you are forgetting that TD actually did offer both Jennings and Williams contracts BEFORE training camp last year. 252599[/snapback] yea, lowball offers........i wonder why they didn't take them? answer me this -- do jennings and williams want more, less, or the same now compared to what they wanted in the summer?
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