The place to repent for McCoy Doubters

[What a Tuel]

 

If you project Mike Gillislee's numbers to 333 carries...5.8 ypc, 1930 yards and 27 TD's..... it would be the most impressive season by a running back in NFL history.

 

I'm just sayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyin'.........this run offense is MIGHTY good with or without his highness, Shady.

 

You are projecting a 2,000 yard season off of 111 carries over 2 years?

 

Also, I remember going back and forth about this with you in the offseason. Your point was a mix of "I don't think Shady has it in him to take the opportunities he left on the field this year, and that injuries, and age would nag him into retirement". You were wrong. Now you are shifting it to "well he's doing it because the offense is enabling him". wtf kind of point is that?

Edited December 9, 2016 by What a Tuel

[BADOLBILZ]

 

That was far from the "start" though. That was 9 months into the debate when he was already shifting his position.

 

So you are saying that......when at the end of a very disappointing season for McCoy........I said that he had the capacity to improve but hadn't been willing........that I was suddenly moving the goal posts?

 

I know we have some people on this board that just say something like "Sammy Watkins sucks" and never waiver regardless of how that player performs.

 

But that's not me.

 

I always point out why there is an issue and the potential problems I see.

 

I felt very strongly that he wouldn't fix his bullsh*t attitude and sideline magnet running style and the combination of his hardheadedness and wear and tear would bring him down.

 

He's made great strides as a player and teammate........this definitely ISN'T the Shady they bought.......and as I said all offseason.......if he lives up to his word the issue will be whether the mileage permits him to achieve what he's capable of.

 

And yes, he had a hammy relapse but in general he's been healthy.

 

But we are still almost a season away from the HALF-WAY point of his contract.

 

If he goes 3 years he will have cost the Bills around $10M+ per.

 

That's not much for a pass rusher or OT........but it's A LOT for a devalued position in the NFL.

 

And yes, it impacts their decisions.......along with numerous shortsighted contract moves the Bills made in Rex offseason I.

 

And the worst part.........they didn't have to. The extension was a donation to the McCoy family trust.

 

Meanwhile.....the Bills found themselves dumpster diving to fill key roster spots this past offseason and came up bare-ass empty at WR and S and it's killing them.

 

I mentioned Oakland........how nice would it have been to have Reggie Nelson? Or even Eric Weddle in this veteran safety critical defense?

 

You want to talk about someone being WRONG........go back and check your takes after the Shady acquisition about how the Bills had absolutely zero cap issues going forward.......and contrast that to the Bills pockets out/hands to side frowny face during the shopping portion of the offseason last year.

 

The Shady extension isn't the worst decision they made.......by far......but it was part of a group that left them looking kinda' clueless wrt team building.

Edited December 9, 2016 by #BADOL

[Deranged Rhino]

In which case take the chance to correct me. Do you think there running backs worth $7-8m a year but just maintain that Shady isn't one of them?

 

Because that wasn't my understanding of your position.

 

He thinks that the notoriously mercurial McCoy, who wears his ego on his sleeve, would have happily played out the remainder of his contract in Buffalo. Thus any extension was wasted resources.

 

This despite Shady being blindsided by the trade, being forced to move from the only state he's ever lived or worked, to a city that's (unjustly of course) mainly a punchline to the national media in order to play for a team undergoing an ownership transition... Oh, and his old contract only had one million guaranteed and was already in talks with Philly to renegotiate.

 

Shady would have happily played his heart out for this team had the Bills taken a hard-line stance on a new deal, I'm sure.

 

 

Badol lives in fantasy land (imo) on this issue. For someone who often claims to know player's motivations he clearly knows nothing about McCoy.

[GunnerBill]

 

If he goes 3 years he will have cost the Bills around $10M+ per.

 

That's not much for a pass rusher or OT........but it's A LOT for a devalued position in the NFL.

 

And yes, it impacts their decisions.......along with numerous shortsighted contract moves the Bills made in Rex offseason I.

See that is what I thought your position was. You think it that is a lot of money for a position you think is devalued.

 

I submit that not every running back fits the mould of a "devalued" guy who isn't worth that contract.

 

I also submit that if you are building a team the way the Bills saw fit to build it given their lack of anything tangible at the Quarterback position then paying that to a top level running back who they intend to put out there to win games for them does not restrict what they want to do.

 

Paying a slightly above average tight end top flight money in an offense that doesn't feature the tight end on the other hand does.

[Doc]

 

So you are saying that......when at the end of a very disappointing season for McCoy........I said that he had the capacity to improve but hadn't been willing........that I was suddenly moving the goal posts?

 

I know we have some people on this board that just say something like "Sammy Watkins sucks" and never waiver regardless of how that player performs.

 

But that's not me.

 

I always point out why there is an issue and the potential problems I see.

 

I felt very strongly that he wouldn't fix his bullsh*t attitude and sideline magnet running style and the combination of his hardheadedness and wear and tear would bring him down.

 

He's made great strides as a player and teammate........this definitely ISN'T the Shady they bought.......and as I said all offseason.......if he lives up to his word the issue will be whether the mileage permits him to achieve what he's capable of.

 

And yes, he had a hammy relapse but in general he's been healthy.

 

But we are still almost a season away from the HALF-WAY point of his contract.

 

If he goes 3 years he will have cost the Bills around $10M+ per.

 

That's not much for a pass rusher or OT........but it's A LOT for a devalued position in the NFL.

 

And yes, it impacts their decisions.......along with numerous shortsighted contract moves the Bills made in Rex offseason I.

 

And the worst part.........they didn't have to. The extension was a donation to the McCoy family trust.

 

Meanwhile.....the Bills found themselves dumpster diving to fill key roster spots this past offseason and came up bare-ass empty at WR and S and it's killing them.

 

I mentioned Oakland........how nice would it have been to have Reggie Nelson? Or even Eric Weddle in this veteran safety critical defense?

 

You want to talk about someone being WRONG........go back and check your takes after the Shady acquisition about how the Bills had absolutely zero cap issues going forward.......and contrast that to the Bills pockets out/hands to side frowny face during the shopping portion of the offseason last year.

 

The Shady extension isn't the worst decision they made.......by far......but it was part of a group that left them looking kinda' clueless wrt team building.

 

Again, no it was not. Like I've said repeatedly, Shady's earning his $8M/year. Point the blame at other players who are being paid almost as much, if not more, and under-producing.

See that is what I thought your position was. You think it that is a lot of money for a position you think is devalued.

 

I submit that not every running back fits the mould of a "devalued" guy who isn't worth that contract.

 

I also submit that if you are building a team the way the Bills saw fit to build it given their lack of anything tangible at the Quarterback position then paying that to a top level running back who they intend to put out there to win games for them does not restrict what they want to do.

 

Paying a slightly above average tight end top flight money in an offense that doesn't feature the tight end on the other hand does.

 

It's more of a case of the QB not using him.

[GunnerBill]

 

It's more of a case of the QB not using him.

Whatever the reason they have a guy they do not feature who is certainly not among the top half dozen at his position in the league getting way overpaid with far too much guaranteed $$.

 

But that guy is Charles Clay. Not LeSean McCoy.

[Deranged Rhino]

 

So you are saying that......when at the end of a very disappointing season for McCoy........I said that he had the capacity to improve but hadn't been willing........that I was suddenly moving the goal posts?

 

 

100% and you know you were. And it was your second or third attempt at doing so.

 

 

 

I felt very strongly that he wouldn't fix his bullsh*t attitude and sideline magnet running style and the combination of his hardheadedness and wear and tear would bring him down.

 

 

 

Yes, and I pointed out way back when that you're making giant assumptions about the guy's attitude without having watched him play much at all. The problem in his last year in Philly weren't on McCoy as much as they were on Chip.

 

Instead of being open to the possibility that you were wrong about his attitude and open to the possibility that his body had not broken down, you took an absolute stance on both fronts and started lashing out, turning a conversation into a debate.

 

From then till now you've convinced yourself that you always were open to the idea that McCoy hadn't hit a wall and could improve... which was my sole take from the start. That he was still elite and worth the cost of the trade (including the contract).

 

And he is.

 

The fact you still can't see that, and still can't show even the slightest hint of a sense of humor about it all is irony at it's best. And I thank you for it.

 

Now, if you'd like to have a conversation:

 

Like I said from the beginning, you can try to sway me with stats all you want but I trust my eyes. Shady is still an elite RB, his contract is certainly debatable but the trade is not. McCoy for Kiko is and was highway robbery. We're a better team with McCoy than we are with Kiko -- those were the points you dug in on the most and I still disagree.

 

You can call that an opinion, I guess, but I'd say the tape speaks for itself.

 

 

 

But we are still almost a season away from the HALF-WAY point of his contract.

 

If he goes 3 years he will have cost the Bills around $10M+ per.

 

He's still in his prime -- and should be next year as well. After next season, they can walk away from him for peanuts.

 

That's not a bad deal for an elite RB who is a playmaker.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Deranged Rhino

[Doc]

Whatever the reason they have a guy they do not feature who is certainly not among the top half dozen at his position in the league getting way overpaid with far too much guaranteed $$.

 

But that guy is Charles Clay. Not LeSean McCoy.

 

You can't fairly evaluate Clay with TT as his QB. I don't think that when they signed him, the QB would refuse to throw to him as much as TT is.

[GunnerBill]

You can't fairly evaluate Clay with TT as his QB. I don't think that when they signed him, the QB would refuse to throw to him as much as TT is.

Sure. But the facts are he has not even got close to that contract. McCoy has his.

[BADOLBILZ]

In which case take the chance to correct me. Do you think there running backs worth $7-8m a year but just maintain that Shady isn't one of them?

 

Because that wasn't my understanding of your position.

 

 

And franky I understand why you don't understand my position because it's constantly skewed by certain very vocal people here.

 

My position is this.......you don't hire the best run game designer in the league and then invest heavily in run blockers AND then pay $8M-$15M per year to a RB....let alone one known for his free-lance style.

 

Asinine is a word that comes to mind.

 

What exactly do YOU make of the fact that Karlos and MG have rushed for around 5.5 ypc over around 200 carries......counting weeks when Shady wasn't even available?

 

McCoy is an excellent player......but this was a poor allocation of assets/example of team building.

 

Yeah, Roman needed an upgrade over Frank Gore........but Gore was running on 3 knee reconstructs before Roman got to SF.......finding RB's that can run thru huge holes is not that difficult when you aren't loyal to a fault like SF was with Gore.

 

I saw that you referenced Zeke Elliott........but here is the deal with Dallas........they have a DC in Rod Marinelli that is working wonders with modest talent and an otherwise very talented offense. Particularly the OL.

 

They had been a solid contender. They were a RB away.

 

When you are one piece away......you can use a blue chip on a red chip position.

 

The Bills were not in that position at all.......and the argument that they need a blue chip RB to cover up for their QB issues was invalid.

 

That doesn't ACTUALLY work in the NFL.

 

To your orignal question.......is there a RB worth $7M-$8M per year?......yeah if he's carrying an otherwise poor run game.

 

Contrary to popular belief that isn't the case here.

[GunnerBill]

 

 

And franky I understand why you don't understand my position because it's constantly skewed by certain very vocal people here.

 

My position is this.......you don't hire the best run game designer in the league and then invest heavily in run blockers AND then pay $8M-$15M per year to a RB....let alone one known for his free-lance style.

 

Asinine is a word that comes to mind.

 

What exactly do YOU make of the fact that Karlos and MG have rushed for around 5.5 ypc over around 200 carries......counting weeks when Shady wasn't even available?

 

McCoy is an excellent player......but this was a poor allocation of assets/example of team building.

 

Yeah, Roman needed an upgrade over Frank Gore........but Gore was running on 3 knee reconstructs before Roman got to SF.......finding RB's that can run thru huge holes is not that difficult when you aren't loyal to a fault like SF was with Gore.

 

I saw that you referenced Zeke Elliott........but here is the deal with Dallas........they have a DC in Rod Marinelli that is working wonders with modest talent and an otherwise very talented offense. Particularly the OL.

 

They had been a solid contender. They were a RB away.

 

When you are one piece away......you can use a blue chip on a red chip position.

 

The Bills were not in that position at all.......and the argument that they need a blue chip RB to cover up for their QB issues was invalid.

 

That doesn't ACTUALLY work in the NFL.

 

To your orignal question.......is there a RB worth $7M-$8M per year?......yeah if he's carrying an otherwise poor run game.

Contrary to popular belief that isn't the case here.

I'm afraid I simply disagree. If you are going to lean heavily on your run game and you have a chance to get a true difference maker at that position for $8m a year that ia good value.

 

The Bills knew they had to build that way because they knew they were on a wing and a prayer at Quarterback. If they had spent the resources on McCoy instead of a Quarterback believe me I would be railing against it because it is fundamentally the wrong way of thinking in the modern NFL. But they didn't. McCoy was intended as the difference naking offensive help until such time as they had a Quarterback who made the difference instead.

 

McCoy has done nothing to restrict their options at Quarterback.

[Doc]

Sure. But the facts are he has not even got close to that contract. McCoy has his.

 

Clay can't throw himself the ball. Alex Smith OTOH...

[BADOLBILZ]

 

100% and you know you were. And it was your second or third attempt at doing so.

 

 

Yes, and I pointed out way back when that you're making giant assumptions about the guy's attitude without having watched him play much at all. The problem in his last year in Philly weren't on McCoy as much as they were on Chip.

 

Instead of being open to the possibility that you were wrong about his attitude and open to the possibility that his body had not broken down, you took an absolute stance on both fronts and started lashing out, turning a conversation into a debate.

 

From then till now you've convinced yourself that you always were open to the idea that McCoy hadn't hit a wall and could improve... which was my sole take from the start. That he was still elite and worth the cost of the trade (including the contract).

 

And he is.

 

 

Like I said from the beginning, you can try to sway me with stats all you want but I trust my eyes. Shady is still an elite RB, his contract is certainly debatable but the trade is not. McCoy for Kiko is and was highway robbery. We're a better team with McCoy than we are with Kiko -- those were the points you dug in on the most and I still disagree.

 

You can call that an opinion, I guess, but I'd say the tape speaks for itself.

 

 

 

 

1) Incorrect........feel free to document.......which you won't.

 

2) And yet McCoy had a worse year with the Bills.......whose fault was that? Rex? Roman? Chip?

 

3) No.....that is a complete fabrication .....your take from the start was that Shady was going to have a huge year in 2015. Not that he was going to rebound. That's how the conversation STARTED. I felt he was a bad fit and a wear and tear risk with a bad contract. And he was. He didn't follow blocks and had six(?) injuries including a season ender. You were furious with me for questioning you. You......a guy with practically zero football takes of note on this board were literally beside yourself about my opinion.

 

4) The two aren't separable. McCoy threatened to take his ball and go home. He had no actual leverage but the Bills blinked anyway. Probably because they made the trade thinking "hey he's just 2 years into a 5 year deal" so we're good. You saying that his "mercurial" nature was justification for paying him is not a compliment, you realize that? It wasn't the back end of his deal.

[BADOLBILZ]

I'm afraid I simply disagree. If you are going to lean heavily on your run game and you have a chance to get a true difference maker at that position for $8m a year that ia good value.

 

The Bills knew they had to build that way because they knew they were on a wing and a prayer at Quarterback. If they had spent the resources on McCoy instead of a Quarterback believe me I would be railing against it because it is fundamentally the wrong way of thinking in the modern NFL. But they didn't. McCoy was intended as the difference naking offensive help until such time as they had a Quarterback who made the difference instead.

 

McCoy has done nothing to restrict their options at Quarterback.

 

It's $8M per if he plays out the 5 year deal GB.......c'mon you know that ain't happening.

 

The key figure is $26.5m in guarantees.

 

The likelihood of him walking away from this deal for less than $10M per is very slim.

 

And like I said........he's already been paid well on the front end of the deal and the Bills should have held him to it.

 

But also......do you notice how I answered your question even though I felt it was not that important to the discussion?

 

How about the courtesy of answering the one I asked? I will ask again:

 

What exactly do YOU make of the fact that Karlos and MG have rushed for around 5.5 ypc over around 200 carries......counting weeks when Shady wasn't even available?

[Deranged Rhino]

 

1) Incorrect........feel free to document.......which you won't.

 

Don't have to. Plenty of people have been following this for the 21 months or so.

 

 

 

 

 

2) And yet McCoy had a worse year with the Bills.......whose fault was that? Rex? Roman? Chip?

 

 

I never denied 2015 was a disappointment. The hammy and McCoy's own slow adjustment to the trade was to blame.

 

He took responsibility, like the elite athlete that he is, and worked on addressing both issues in the off season.

 

 

 

3) No.....that is a complete fabrication .....your take from the start was that Shady was going to have a huge year in 2015. Not that he was going to rebound. That's how the conversation STARTED. I felt he was a bad fit and a wear and tear risk with a bad contract. And he was. He didn't follow blocks and had six(?) injuries including a season ender. You were furious with me for questioning you. You......a guy with practically zero football takes of note on this board were literally beside yourself about my opinion.

 

Again, you're incorrect. Pretty much about everything written above.

 

I did expect McCoy to have a big 2015 -- he did not. He disappointed.

 

That was never our issue, that was what you moved the goal posts too during the 2015 season.

 

My original take was/is that McCoy is not over the hill and is still an elite, top 3 RB in the league who you trade for every day of the week.

 

2015's disappointment didn't disprove that take at all... and much to your disappointment, I've never been furious about anything you've written or anyone has written on this board. Just goes to show, once again, how terrible you are at understanding people and what they're thinking/motivated by despite your constant claims of being able to do precisely that.

 

And like I said........he's already been paid well on the front end of the deal and the Bills should have held him to it.

 

 

 

That's just living in fantasy land.

[BADOLBILZ]

 

You are projecting a 2,000 yard season off of 111 carries over 2 years?

 

Also, I remember going back and forth about this with you in the offseason. Your point was a mix of "I don't think Shady has it in him to take the opportunities he left on the field this year, and that injuries, and age would nag him into retirement". You were wrong. Now you are shifting it to "well he's doing it because the offense is enabling him". wtf kind of point is that?

 

Don't forget Karlos.........together with MG.......that's 204 carries for a 5.7 ypc and 16 TD's.

 

FIVE POINT SEVEN......and SIXTEEN.

 

KW with near identical production to MG actually.

 

Interchangeable almost.

 

How is it that the Bills managed to get the 3 most productive RB's on a ypc basis? Insert scratch head emoji here

 

This is the point that NONE of the dissenters even want to address.

 

I commend you for doing so but as expected the first take is to skew.

Edited December 9, 2016 by #BADOL

[YoloinOhio]

When does McCoy's radio show air? Looking forward to it.

[Deranged Rhino]

This is the point that NONE of the dissenters even want to address.

 

 

Because it has nothing to do with the original debate.

When does McCoy's radio show air? Looking forward to it.

[GunnerBill]

 

It's $8M per if he plays out the 5 year deal GB.......c'mon you know that ain't happening.

 

The key figure is $26.5m in guarantees.

 

The likelihood of him walking away from this deal for less than $10M per is very slim.

 

And like I said........he's already been paid well on the front end of the deal and the Bills should have held him to it.

 

But also......do you notice how I answered your question even though I felt it was not that important to the discussion?

 

How about the courtesy of answering the one I asked? I will ask again:

 

What exactly do YOU make of the fact that Karlos and MG have rushed for around 5.5 ypc over around 200 carries......counting weeks when Shady wasn't even available?

I think Shady will definitely be here next year and all likelyhood in 2018 too. If he is the average cost per year of the 4 years will be $8.25m.

 

As for your question... I feel it is irrelevant to the issue. Unless you are arguing Gillislee or Williams (both of whom I like) are as good as Shady - which I know you are not - then it doesn't change the point.

 

At the time that they traded for Shady neither was on the roster and what they saw was an opportunity in a run heavy offense to get a top tier running back at a cost even after the renegotiation of $8m a year.

 

The fact that they have done a nice job finding some good relief pitchers so that the whole of the running game doesn't rest on Shady doesn't undermine that rationale of that trade to my mind.

 

Look, he isn't my kind of person from what we know about him off the field, I am not misty eyed about the legend of Shady McCoy I just don't quite buy the "devalued" running back narrative. I still think there are some guys out there worth playmaker money especially in cases where teams do not have the passing game to lean on and given where the Bills were there was a logic to the trade.

Edited December 9, 2016 by GunnerBill

[Deranged Rhino]

I think Shady will definitely be here next year and all likelyhood in 2018 too. If he is the average cost per year of the 4 years will be $8.25m.

 

As for your question... I feel it is irrelevant to the issue. Unless you are arguing Gillislee or Williams (both of whom I like) are as good as Shady - which I know you are not - then it doesn't change the point.

 

At the time that they traded for Shady neither was on the roster and what they saw was an opportunity in a run heavy offense to get a top tier running back at a cost even after the renegotiation of $8m a year.

 

The fact that they have done a nice job finding some good relief pitchers so that the whole of the running game doesn't rest on Shady doesn't undermine that rationale of that trade to my mind.

 

Look, he isn't my kind of person from what we now about him off the field, I am not misty eyed about the legend of Shady McCoy I just don't quite buy the "devalued" running back narrative. I still think there are some guys out there worth playmaker money especially in cases where teams do not have the passing game to lean on and given where the Bills were there was a logic to the trade.

 

Yup.