The place to repent for McCoy Doubters

[BringBackOrton]

 

Yep, he's entrenched in his position. So now that Shady's YPC not only did not decline but is the highest it's ever been, and he should finish the season with more TD's than any other season but 1 (2011, when he had a ridiculous 20 of them), it's "McCoy's contract prevented the Bills from addressing other areas of the team."

 

 

See his latest post. As DR said, he's moving the goalposts now.

How so? Like I said, he already admitted his "McCoy is done and going to be out of the league next year," take was incorrect. He admitted he's having a great year. Can he no longer comment on McCoy without it being a continuation of a different argument that is all but over?

 

Just because he was wrong about McCoy being done doesn't mean he's wrong about the contract. They are separate topics.

Edited December 8, 2016 by jmc12290

[The Frankish Reich]

agree! He's back to himself after the injury. In the grand scheme of player value, still see it as a lopsided trade in Bills favor.

Well, my measuring stick is a bit different. It's DeMarco Murray, who was signed by Philly for quite a bit less than McCoy got in his extension. He had a bad year with the Eagles, but is having an excellent (you could say Shady-esque) season with the Titans. You can't judge a trade like this without referring to contracts and available alternatives.

[Marty McFly]

I never doubted Shady but, I also didnt know how good he really was. He IS OUR OFFENSE. If we dont have Shady McCoy we are easily a 5-10 team. Even 3-13.

[Doc]

How so? Like I said, he already admitted his "McCoy is done and going to be out of the league next year," take was incorrect. He admitted he's having a great year. Can he no longer comment on McCoy without it being a continuation of a different argument that is all but over?

 

Just because he was wrong about McCoy being done doesn't mean he's wrong about the contract. They are separate topics.

 

Why even talk about the contract? Again a) it wasn't the reason the Bills couldn't shore-up other areas of the team and b) he's earning it, unlike others.

[BringBackOrton]

 

Why even talk about the contract? Again a) it wasn't the reason the Bills couldn't shore-up other areas of the team and b) he's earning it, unlike others.

Why not? It's a discussion board. Edited December 8, 2016 by jmc12290

[Deranged Rhino]

How so? Like I said, he already admitted his "McCoy is done and going to be out of the league next year," take was incorrect. He admitted he's having a great year. Can he no longer comment on McCoy without it being a continuation of a different argument that is all but over?

 

Just because he was wrong about McCoy being done doesn't mean he's wrong about the contract. They are separate topics.

 

I've got no problem with anyone talking about anything -- even if they've been proven to be wrong. I'm all for discussion. I also fully agree (and agreed when this whole debate began) that debating the merits of the contract are completely valid. Badol thinks Shady would have played with his old deal -- based on knowing the guy and a few sources inside OBD, I say that was never a possibility. Neither one of us can "prove" the other wrong on that count so it's completely valid to debate it -- and I expect his contract will be debated all off season by the NNNs.

 

What was silly was claiming that McCoy wasn't a top back anymore, had lost a step, was worth less than Kiko, or that Kelly had pulled one over on OBD -- all claims he made while relying solely on statistics rather than watching the guy play football. He harassed and belittled anyone who said otherwise, ranted through unwanted PMs and lame put-downs. He never cared to have a conversation, only to shout down anyone who thought his stance was inaccurate.

 

Then when it became clear his original position was wrong, he simply adopted the position along the lines of (paraphrasing) "I never said an elite athlete couldn't rededicate himself and be better" -- which, was the exact argument myself, Doc, 26, and many others were making when the trade went down. Namely that his last year in Philly wasn't the result of McCoy being on the decline but more so the result of an injury and Chip's unwillingness to use him as he did the year before.

 

It was the way he went about the debate that rubbed many the wrong way, but he's of course allowed to say whatever he wants whenever he wants. I'm not for censorship.

 

But we're allowed to laugh at his inability to admit he was wrong (on anything, ever) while he belittles people for caring so much about a "hobby". He talks out both sides of his mouth while taking an incredibly arrogant and hostile tone.

 

Badol has good takes, he's a valuable contributor. He's also unstable and prone to outbursts of idiocy ("Shady will be out of the league and working in radio before he turns 30" being my favorite) and has shown zero sense of humor about himself or his erroneous takes.

 

Which I find hilarious.

[BringBackOrton]

 

I've got no problem with anyone talking about anything -- even if they've been proven to be wrong. I'm all for discussion. I also fully agree (and agreed when this whole debate began) that debating the merits of the contract are completely valid. Badol thinks Shady would have played with his old deal -- based on knowing the guy and a few sources inside OBD, I say that was never a possibility. Neither one of us can "prove" the other wrong on that count so it's completely valid to debate it -- and I expect his contract will be debated all off season by the NNNs.

 

What was silly was claiming that McCoy wasn't a top back anymore, had lost a step, was worth less than Kiko, or that Kelly had pulled one over on OBD -- all claims he made while relying solely on statistics rather than watching the guy play football. He harassed and belittled anyone who said otherwise, ranted through unwanted PMs and lame put-downs. He never cared to have a conversation, only to shout down anyone who thought his stance was inaccurate.

 

Then when it became clear his original position was wrong, he simply adopted the position along the lines of (paraphrasing) "I never said an elite athlete couldn't rededicate himself and be better" -- which, was the exact argument myself, Doc, 26, and many others were making when the trade went down. Namely that his last year in Philly wasn't the result of McCoy being on the decline but more so the result of an injury and Chip's unwillingness to use him as he did the year before.

 

It was the way he went about the debate that rubbed many the wrong way, but he's of course allowed to say whatever he wants whenever he wants. I'm not for censorship.

 

But we're allowed to laugh at his inability to admit he was wrong (on anything, ever) while he belittles people for caring so much about a "hobby". He talks out both sides of his mouth while taking an incredibly arrogant and hostile tone.

 

Badol has good takes, he's a valuable contributor. He's also unstable and prone to outbursts of idiocy ("Shady will be out of the league and working in radio before he turns 30" being my favorite) and has shown zero sense of humor about himself or his erroneous takes.

 

Which I find hilarious.

That's just not true, he said this from the start. I followed this debate closely, mostly because I was very torn on how I felt about Shady heading into 2016.

 

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/183856-shining-a-light-on-shady/?p=3825131

 

Here's a link to a post in December 2015, prior to any resurgence of McCoy. "The improvement is McCoy's to make." During this whole saga, I found many throwaway lines about how BADOL's opinion was that it was not likely, or that he didn't think McCoy could come back. The wiggle room was presented from the start, from what I saw.

 

Does this make him any less wrong? Of course not. But I think you are mischaracterizing his argument due to the presentation. Which is understandable, considering the tone he uses.

[CommonCents]

 

I've got no problem with anyone talking about anything -- even if they've been proven to be wrong. I'm all for discussion. I also fully agree (and agreed when this whole debate began) that debating the merits of the contract are completely valid. Badol thinks Shady would have played with his old deal -- based on knowing the guy and a few sources inside OBD, I say that was never a possibility. Neither one of us can "prove" the other wrong on that count so it's completely valid to debate it -- and I expect his contract will be debated all off season by the NNNs.

 

What was silly was claiming that McCoy wasn't a top back anymore, had lost a step, was worth less than Kiko, or that Kelly had pulled one over on OBD -- all claims he made while relying solely on statistics rather than watching the guy play football. He harassed and belittled anyone who said otherwise, ranted through unwanted PMs and lame put-downs. He never cared to have a conversation, only to shout down anyone who thought his stance was inaccurate.

 

Then when it became clear his original position was wrong, he simply adopted the position along the lines of (paraphrasing) "I never said an elite athlete couldn't rededicate himself and be better" -- which, was the exact argument myself, Doc, 26, and many others were making when the trade went down. Namely that his last year in Philly wasn't the result of McCoy being on the decline but more so the result of an injury and Chip's unwillingness to use him as he did the year before.

 

It was the way he went about the debate that rubbed many the wrong way, but he's of course allowed to say whatever he wants whenever he wants. I'm not for censorship.

 

But we're allowed to laugh at his inability to admit he was wrong (on anything, ever) while he belittles people for caring so much about a "hobby". He talks out both sides of his mouth while taking an incredibly arrogant and hostile tone.

 

Badol has good takes, he's a valuable contributor. He's also unstable and prone to outbursts of idiocy ("Shady will be out of the league and working in radio before he turns 30" being my favorite) and has shown zero sense of humor about himself or his erroneous takes.

 

Which I find hilarious.

I took that bet with him, I think!? What was the bet again, a million bucks?? Pay up!!!!!

[Deranged Rhino]

That's just not true, he said this from the start.

 

That was far from the "start" though. That was 9 months into the debate when he was already shifting his position.

[YoloinOhio]

 

He can't help it. Badol's moved the goal posts more times over the course of this discussion than most people move their bowels in a lifetime.

omg that's funny (as someone who has been following this debate the whole time) Edited December 8, 2016 by YoloinOhio

[Bill from NYC]

Why even talk about the contract?

The contract is worthy of discussion for SO many reasons.

 

Teams that devote the bulk of their draft and cash resources to running backs and the secondary lose football games. RBs get injured every game and don't seem to be a very worthy investment in this passing league.

 

Doc, I liked the league better when running meant more (of course in those days the Bills had some of the worst offensive lines of all time). But, those days are gone.

 

And btw, as much as everybody hates Tyrod (I do not), take away his option to run and ALL of the Bills backs would gain less yardage imo. Mobile qbs put a band aid on bleeding offensive lines and make them appear much better than they really are. This was the case with Flutie as I know you remember.

 

I hope McCoy keeps it up and proves to be worthy of his contract. With our front office and coaching staff we need all the help we can get.

[Doc]

The contract is worthy of discussion for SO many reasons.

 

Teams that devote the bulk of their draft and cash resources to running backs and the secondary lose football games. RBs get injured every game and don't seem to be a very worthy investment in this passing league.

 

Doc, I liked the league better when running meant more (of course in those days the Bills had some of the worst offensive lines of all time). But, those days are gone.

 

And btw, as much as everybody hates Tyrod (I do not), take away his option to run and ALL of the Bills backs would gain less yardage imo. Mobile qbs put a band aid on bleeding offensive lines and make them appear much better than they really are. This was the case with Flutie as I know you remember.

 

I hope McCoy keeps it up and proves to be worthy of his contract. With our front office and coaching staff we need all the help we can get.

 

IMHO there are other contracts that should be brought up before Shady's. To me it was just BADOL taking a shot when his other arguments failed. I like BADOL but he's got a crusade when it comes to Shady.

 

And for your average RB, I'd agree. Shady however is a weapon in the run and pass game.

 

Lastly, a running QB probably helps. But he had a great season in 2013 with Foles as his QB and the Bills were 2nd in rushing that same year with EJ. who I wouldn't exactly consider a running QB.

[YoloinOhio]

Listening to PITT radio today they were saying Shady's contact was a bargain for what he provides to the offense and they would jump at the chance to give that deal to L'azy-on but he wants way more

Edited December 9, 2016 by YoloinOhio

[Captain_Quint]

Why hasnt anyone stood up and demanded accountability from the naysayers, like JSP did?

[Doc]

Listening to PITT radio today they were saying Shady's contact was a bargain for what he provides to the offense and they would jump at the chance to give that deal to L'azy-on but he wants way more

 

Yup. And Bell want's $15M/year. Crazy.

[GunnerBill]

The contract is worthy of discussion for SO many reasons.

 

Teams that devote the bulk of their draft and cash resources to running backs and the secondary lose football games. RBs get injured every game and don't seem to be a very worthy investment in this passing league.

The Seattle Seahawks say hello. Their model was paying their running back and their secondary at the expense of keeping the dominant front 7 together or a good offensive line. Seems to have worked out for them okay. Even this year they have $5m in dead cap with the words "Beast Mode" written on it.

 

Teams that dedicate resources to running backs lose?

 

Dallas invested the #4 overall pick... they sure as hell don't seem to be losing.

 

The fundamental problem with the take you and BADOL have had throughout on this in my opinion is the misaprehension that all running backs are created equal.

 

They are not. Are their guys around the league who are plug and play backs? Sure. But Shady McCoy is not one of them and in an offense that relies on the run more than any other paying a little more than is normal (and it is by no means well out of whack with other top running back contracts) for a top level back is not a major misuse of resource.

 

It is no good saying "passing league so the Bills need to stop spending on a back" when the Bills do not have a Quarterback.

 

I keep saying it.... there is a 2015 spending splurge contract that hurts this team.... but it isn't McCoy... that is top back money for a top back in a system that leans on the back. It is Charles Clay - top tight end contract for a slightly above average tight end in a system that does not feature the position.

[BADOLBILZ]

That's just not true, he said this from the start. I followed this debate closely, mostly because I was very torn on how I felt about Shady heading into 2016.

 

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/183856-shining-a-light-on-shady/?p=3825131

 

Here's a link to a post in December 2015, prior to any resurgence of McCoy. "The improvement is McCoy's to make." During this whole saga, I found many throwaway lines about how BADOL's opinion was that it was not likely, or that he didn't think McCoy could come back. The wiggle room was presented from the start, from what I saw.

 

Does this make him any less wrong? Of course not. But I think you are mischaracterizing his argument due to the presentation. Which is understandable, considering the tone he uses.

 

My issue with Shady were that there were MANY ISSUES that he would need to overcome to justify tearing up his contract and guaranteeing him 2/3 of his salary over 5 years.

 

Technically......he won't actually begin doing that until AFTER 2017........because that's when the actual extension starts.

 

Last year.........despite apologies from his following.......he was a disappointment on the field and off.

 

I appreciate your pointing out things like that link because basically when the things I predicted started happening.....not following blocks, injuries, sub-par production........guys like Gregg abandoned their arguments and tried to make it a personal offensive and creating a narrative that certainly was not accurate with what I was saying.

 

There wasn't a good reason for Shady to not produce on par with his backups last year.

 

I said he should be averaging 5.5 ypc and breaking off long runs like Karlos and MG........the plays were there to be made.

 

To illustrate........Gillislee now has 111 carries as a Bill.

 

If you project Mike Gillislee's numbers to 333 carries...5.8 ypc, 1930 yards and 27 TD's..... it would be the most impressive season by a running back in NFL history.

 

I'm just sayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyin'.........this run offense is MIGHTY good with or without his highness, Shady.

 

This will now be turned into "BADOL says Mike Gillislee would be the greatest running back ever if Shady wasn't taking away his carries".

 

For some reason it's just not satisfying for some fans to accept that the entirety of this offense makes it a pinball machine for ground production.

[YoloinOhio]

 

Yup. And Bell want's $15M/year. Crazy.

he is crazy! Especially with his off-field drug stuff. I bet he gets 10 though. Still just 24 yrs old. Edited December 9, 2016 by YoloinOhio

[BADOLBILZ]

The Seattle Seahawks say hello. Their model was paying their running back and their secondary at the expense of keeping the dominant front 7 together or a good offensive line. Seems to have worked out for them okay. Even this year they have $5m in dead cap with the words "Beast Mode" written on it.

 

Teams that dedicate resources to running backs lose?

 

Dallas invested the #4 overall pick... they sure as hell don't seem to be losing.

 

The fundamental problem with the take you and BADOL have had throughout on this in my opinion is the misaprehension that all running backs are created equal.

 

They are not. Are their guys around the league who are plug and play backs? Sure. But Shady McCoy is not one of them and in an offense that relies on the run more than any other paying a little more than is normal (and it is by no means well out of whack with other top running back contracts) for a top level back is not a major misuse of resource.

 

It is no good saying "passing league so the Bills need to stop spending on a back" when the Bills do not have a Quarterback.

 

I keep saying it.... there is a 2015 spending splurge contract that hurts this team.... but it isn't McCoy... that is top back money for a top back in a system that leans on the back. It is Charles Clay - top tight end contract for a slightly above average tight end in a system that does not feature the position.

 

When did I ever say all running backs are created equal?

 

That take is every bit as bad as Greggo's nonsense.

 

I pointed out numerous times that lesser backs were outproducing Shady.

 

He was in his own little world last year and because he can turn a bad initial decision into a gain with a great COD people ignored the plays he left on the field.

 

This year he's leaving less and making more on his own when improvising.

 

And I will say this........he is doing even better physically than I expected he could.......because he is producing at that pace I expected while still leaving some plays on the field.

Edited December 9, 2016 by #BADOL

[GunnerBill]

 

When did I ever say all running backs are created equal?

 

That take is every bit as bad as Greggo's nonsense.

In which case take the chance to correct me. Do you think there running backs worth $7-8m a year but just maintain that Shady isn't one of them?

 

Because that wasn't my understanding of your position.