Bill Polian....Genius or Lucky?

[Nihilarian]

 

Ultimately, the title of this thread is a false dichotomy between "genius" and "lucky". There's no question that Bill Polian was a supremely skilled football executive who built winning franchises in 3 cities. But BadOl has a point: ultimately, Polian's ego and inability to compromise/get along held him back from a level of success that he could have achieved. The most telling story is from Marv Levy: "Later that night, Levy went to Wilson’s hotel room and made a case for his friend, arguing that Polian was the best general manager in football, a superb personnel evaluator, a terrific negotiator, and one of the smartest people in the game. Wilson gave Levy a fatherly smile and said, “Marv, everything you said about Bill’s merits I agree with. But we just don’t get along.”

As a result of Wilson not getting along with Polian who were the real losers? I'd say Bills fans first and the Bills owner himself. The man was noted for continuously shooting himself in the foot. He did it with Chuck Knox, he did it with Bill Polian, he did it with John Butler.

 

A couple of points here. Ralph Wilson was noted in the media for being a very cantankerous "hands-on" owner who a lot of coaches refused to work for considering how much he meddled in obtaining the players, coaches and probably why he had great difficulty in finding an actual good NFL GM in his last decade of ownership. Wilson also refused to hire some really good head coaches because he didn't feel comfortable with them.

 

When Polian wanted to bring in good free agents like Bryce Paup he needed to fight it out with Wilson's bean counters. When Polian wanted to upgrade Rich stadium he needed to fight with the owner over the Trinitron, sound system; and other upgrades. Polian needed to pitch the idea that upgrades for the team and stadium would pay off in ticket sales. It was in 1987 that the Bills first started using that Bills style shout song during games.

 

I'd be willing to be the farm that Polian didn't need to fight with anyone to bring in whatever players he wanted for the Panthers or Colts! The man was also noted to have a very tyrant like demeanor as the GM in Buffalo but that could be as a result in dealing with Wilson's A-holes. AFAIK this wasn't / isn't the case at either Carolina, Indy or at ESPN where he currently works.

[Hardcore Bills Fan]

Polian wasnt lucky; he is a very skilled talent evaluater

[Hapless Bills Fan]

When Polian wanted to bring in good free agents like Bryce Paup he needed to fight it out with Wilson's bean counters.

 

This is a very puzzling statement. Bryce Paup was drafted in 1990 by the Packers. Polian was fired in 1992. Unrestricted free agency didn't come into effect until 1992.

 

When was Paup ever a free agent that would have overlapped with Polian's tenure with the Bills and enabled Polian to fight with Wilson about bringing him in?

 

As a result of Wilson not getting along with Polian who were the real losers? I'd say Bills fans first and the Bills owner himself. The man was noted for continuously shooting himself in the foot. He did it with Chuck Knox, he did it with Bill Polian, he did it with John Butler.

(...)

I'd be willing to be the farm that Polian didn't need to fight with anyone to bring in whatever players he wanted for the Panthers or Colts! The man was also noted to have a very tyrant like demeanor as the GM in Buffalo but that could be as a result in dealing with Wilson's A-holes. AFAIK this wasn't / isn't the case at either Carolina, Indy or at ESPN where he currently works.

 

It was reported that there was discord and Polian was repeatedly frustrated in dealing with Carolina owner Richardson and his son, which is why he left for Indy. There was all sorts of stuff about Polian's tyrant-like behavior at Indy especially in his last years there.

 

Yes, Wilson and the Bills were the worse when Polian was fired, but this isn't a thread about the Bills, it's a thread about Polian. And my assessment is that Polian was a genius with a tragic flaw: the inability to compromise or get along with people.

[Nihilarian]

 

This is a very puzzling statement. Bryce Paup was drafted in 1990 by the Packers. Polian was fired in 1992. Unrestricted free agency didn't come into effect until 1992.

 

When was Paup ever a free agent that would have overlapped with Polian's tenure with the Bills and enabled Polian to fight with Wilson about bringing him in?

 

 

It was reported that there was discord and Polian was repeatedly frustrated in dealing with Carolina owner Richardson and his son, which is why he left for Indy. There was all sorts of stuff about Polian's tyrant-like behavior at Indy especially in his last years there.

 

Yes, Wilson and the Bills were the worse when Polian was fired, but this isn't a thread about the Bills, it's a thread about Polian. And my assessment is that Polian was a genius with a tragic flaw: the inability to compromise or get along with people.

That first statement was accurate when I meant to say that Polian needed to fight with Wilson's bean counters to bring in players, pay players to keep them and make stadium upgrades. Admittedly, I should have simply said bring in veteran players. The point still remains, though.

 

If you would please link any article stating Polian having problems with anyone in the Richardson family during his time with the Panthers as I don't recall any discord. From what I understand is that the Colts wanted Polian so badly that they gave up a draft pick to Carolina so they would allow him to be hired away and the Colts needed to promote him to team president so the hire was an advancement.

 

But yeah, no question the man fiery temper and has let it get the best of him at times. I don't believe it's a reason that has kept him from winning more SB's though. From The Colts owner,

 

"Jim Irsay is more sanguine about Polian’s idiosyncrasies: “I really love the guy, and yes, he can get volatile, so I gotta get him calmed down sometimes. But that’s fine, too. He’s brilliant at what he does. Like any mad genius, there’s some volatility and some things that come with it.”

[dave mcbride]

I gave him credit as the trade prevented Faulk from destroying Indy on the cap. They got Mike Peterson (a solid LB) as part of the trade, and enabled them to draft Edge. By trading Faulk, they were able to retain Manning Faulk and Harrison down the line. Faulk and James were the top 2 RBs in the league for the next 3 years, and without Manning, Harrison, James, and Glenn they would have been the same sad franchise that was a cream puff joke in the early 90's. Sometimes, you have to get value for a stud before you lose him in free agency, like Belichek does routinely.

I agree, and good post. Faulk's contract was going to be an issue, and James had a HOF-level career himself.

 

Polian on the Faulk trade: http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/throwback/201411/bill-polian-game-plan-building-winning-football-nfl-colts-bills-carucci

[BADOLBILZ]

With all due respect. Butler lived off the players Polian put in place and when they were gone he was justifiably shown the door.

 

Betcha didn't know: Jim Kelly, Bruce Smith and Andre Reed.......3/4 of the HOF core of 90's Bills players.....were actually drafted PRIOR to Polian becoming GM. Darryl Talley too!

[BADOLBILZ]

I agree, and good post. Faulk's contract was going to be an issue, and James had a HOF-level career himself.

 

Polian on the Faulk trade: http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/throwback/201411/bill-polian-game-plan-building-winning-football-nfl-colts-bills-carucci

 

 

Future HOF's Marshall Faulk and Champ Bailey...MVP and DPOY type players......would have been better than Edge James and Peterson...............with them the Colts likely win multiple SB's before they ever actually reached Peyton's first......which they did without Edgerrin James, btw.

 

As I said, I was thrilled that Polian made such a critical mistake......and not surprised, frankly.... but the problem was the prince of darkness was also lurking in our division and we could not have foreseen the havoc he would bring on us.

[dave mcbride]

 

 

Future HOF's Marshall Faulk and Champ Bailey...MVP and DPOY type players......would have been better than Edge James and Peterson...............with them the Colts likely win multiple SB's before they ever actually reached Peyton's first......which they did without Edgerrin James, btw.

 

As I said, I was thrilled that Polian made such a critical mistake......and not surprised, frankly.... but the problem was the prince of darkness was also lurking in our division and we could not have foreseen the havoc he would bring on us.

LOL re the prince of darkness. We don't know what would have happened with Faulk given his bad contract situation in Indy. He would definitely have held out, and that certainly would have impacted their season in a negative way. I remember when that was going down.

 

One way to look at it: they traded a first for a second and a fourth, which isn't so great. (Their first disappeared because they used it to simply replace one HOF RB with another HOF-worthy RB). However, that factors out two things. First, there was the contract situation with Faulk, which was real. Second, they had gotten 5 good seasons out of Faulk already, and the most they could have expected to have gotten going forward was another 3-4 before the inevitable decline set in. As it so happens, Faulk had 3 great seasons in St Louis and one pretty good but injury marred season (2002). After that, he was done. James gave Indy 5 great seasons, one pretty good one, and one injury marred one. You have to factor in the fact that they got about a third more production from James than they were likely to get from Faulk. That's not insignificant. As you know as well as anyone else here, RBs age fast.

Edited October 10, 2016 by dave mcbride

[BADOLBILZ]

I gave him credit as the trade prevented Faulk from destroying Indy on the cap. They got Mike Peterson (a solid LB) as part of the trade, and enabled them to draft Edge. By trading Faulk, they were able to retain Manning Faulk and Harrison down the line. Faulk and James were the top 2 RBs in the league for the next 3 years, and without Manning, Harrison, James, and Glenn they would have been the same sad franchise that was a cream puff joke in the early 90's. Sometimes, you have to get value for a stud before you lose him in free agency, like Belichek does routinely.

 

 

Here is the thing with regard to this "destroying the cap" idea.

 

Polian was not a finisher.

 

He chose sustained competitiveness over going for the gold.

 

That is why he sat on the sidelines after SBXXV while SF and Dallas(and to some extent the Redskins before them) were using any means necessary to fill holes and jockey for position in the race for a SB win.

 

My take......you take MVP like talent combo of Faulk and Bailey when you can get it!

 

And close the deal ASAP and hopefully 2-3 more times before you pay that cap bill and re-tool.

 

By that time, Peyton was so good he could win with a lot less talent............which he did with an AWFUL roster toward the end because Polian had a series of very bad drafts that lead to his dismissal(though Hughes has proven to be a stud).

 

 

 

I

[dave mcbride]

 

 

Here is the thing with regard to this "destroying the cap" idea.

 

Polian was not a finisher.

 

He chose sustained competitiveness over going for the gold.

 

That is why he sat on the sidelines after SBXXV while SF and Dallas(and to some extent the Redskins before them) were using any means necessary to fill holes and jockey for position in the race for a SB win.

 

My take......you take MVP like talent combo of Faulk and Bailey when you can get it!

 

And close the deal ASAP and hopefully 2-3 more times before you pay that cap bill and re-tool.

 

By that time, Peyton was so good he could win with a lot less talent............which he did with an AWFUL roster toward the end because Polian had a series of very bad drafts that lead to his dismissal(though Hughes has proven to be a stud).

 

 

 

I

Incidentally, they let James walk and replaced him with another first round RB in 2006 (Addai). They won the SB that year (and also the "real" SB that year - the AFC championship game against the Pats).

 

I also disagree about the "awful" roster in 2009 - Mathis and Freeney were the best pass rushing tandem in the league. Both are borderline hall of famers.

Edited October 10, 2016 by dave mcbride

[BADOLBILZ]

Incidentally, they let James walk and replaced him with another first round RB in 2006 (Addai). They won the SB that year (and also the "real" SB that year - the AFC championship game against the Pats).

 

I also disagree about the "awful" roster in 2009 - Mathis and Freeney were the best pass rushing tandem in the league. Both are borderline hall of famers.

 

 

Addai was a bad choice........but that was the way Polian was trending at that point.

 

As for Peyton's last year in Indy..........they were dominant despite being very poorly stocked.

 

Griggson is downright awful though.........they went from the frying pan into the molten lava with that clown.

[QCity]

 

Betcha didn't know: Jim Kelly, Bruce Smith and Andre Reed.......3/4 of the HOF core of 90's Bills players.....were actually drafted PRIOR to Polian becoming GM. Darryl Talley too!

 

Yeah, right. Pat McGroder and Terry Bledsoe were the true geniuses. Can't believe the HOF dropped the ball like this.

[Augie]

Yeah, right. Pat McGroder and Terry Bledsoe were the true geniuses. Can't believe the HOF dropped the ball like this.

 

Sometimes the hard part is not the easy, obvious choice, but those guys brought in who make the team behind the stars and win the games. Now, am I talking about Poian of Whaley? (For now Polian, but I'm hoping Whaley fits the Bill's bill!!!)

[BADOLBILZ]

Sometimes the hard part is not the easy, obvious choice, but those guys brought in who make the team behind the stars and win the games. Now, am I talking about Poian of Whaley? (For now Polian, but I'm hoping Whaley fits the Bill's bill!!!)

 

 

No..........the hardest part is getting the HOF'ers and leaders.

 

Polian was good when he was aggressively trying to get star players...........like getting Kelly on the dotted line, trading for Biscuit and Leonard Smith or taking a chance on a potential superstar in Thurman.......all while dealing with a meddling, mercurial football understanding-deficient owner.........but not so special when he was taking his premature victory laps when he should have been finishing the job with extreme prejudice.

[Augie]

No..........the hardest part is getting the HOF'ers and leaders.

 

Polian was good when he was aggressively trying to get star players...........like getting Kelly on the dotted line, trading for Biscuit and Leonard Smith or taking a chance on a potential superstar in Thurman.......all while dealing with a meddling, mercurial football understanding-deficient owner.........but not so special when he was taking his premature victory laps when he should have been finishing the job with extreme prejudice.

No, as has been pointed out, many of them were on the roster or the rights were owned before Polian. It's more than the top guys. It's building the rest of the roster that puts you over the top. You absolutely need Pro Bowl/HOF players, but the Colts won't win if they keep trading Jerry Hughes for a crappy LB. I'm liking Whaley more every week and every month. Polian doesn't need me to defend him. His success with multiple teams shows he knows more than super stars are needed. He built teams. I think Whaley does the same, and hopefully gets similar results.

[Big Turk]

 

 

Addai was a bad choice........but that was the way Polian was trending at that point.

 

As for Peyton's last year in Indy..........they were dominant despite being very poorly stocked.

 

Griggson is downright awful though.........they went from the frying pan into the molten lava with that clown.

 

Addai had a few good years, back to back 1,000 seasons to start off his career and then seemingly hit the wall...

[Nihilarian]

No, as has been pointed out, many of them were on the roster or the rights were owned before Polian. It's more than the top guys. It's building the rest of the roster that puts you over the top. You absolutely need Pro Bowl/HOF players, but the Colts won't win if they keep trading Jerry Hughes for a crappy LB. I'm liking Whaley more every week and every month. Polian doesn't need me to defend him. His success with multiple teams shows he knows more than super stars are needed. He built teams. I think Whaley does the same, and hopefully gets similar results.

This is exactly right! Teams don't get to the SB 4x times in a row with just a handful of star players. It's a team game and a QB is only as good as his supporting cast. The Bills the last few years also proved a few star players on the defense isn't going to get it done either.

 

 

What screwed the Bills after 1992 was Buffalo OC Ted Marchibroda leaving to become the Colts HC again and the game plan for the Redskins (I think) went with him. It was well known that Marchibroda was being courted by the Colts before that SB and they hired him right after.

 

SB 26 on Jan 26th- Colts hire Marchibroda Jan 28th

[dave mcbride]

Wow--Polian isn't getting any credit here for his very first pick as Bills GM: Wil Wolford. Wolofrd may well have been the league's best LT of the late 80s-early 90s. His departure from the Bills after the 92 season was a huge blow. The Bills' offense was never the same without him.