John Gianelli Posted October 8, 2016 Posted October 8, 2016 Players during the Bills rise in the 80's already on the roster pre Polian GM also include Jim Richter, Darryl Talley, Joe Devlin. The best trade he made, actually didn't receive a ton of press, was trading the '85 1st overall Supplemental Pick to Cleveland for their '85 and '86 #1's. Not arguing that trading for Biscuit was not a great move, but the trade certainly was not a fleecing. We gave up our fair share of picks for sure, I 2 #1's, #2, and maybe a 3rd. I think you're confusing Jim Richter with Jarius Byrd.
Best Player Available Posted October 8, 2016 Posted October 8, 2016 Polian is the best GM the Bills ever had. He worked in a pre salary cap era a time when you could build and keep a great team intact. For a owner who had up to him repeatedely derailed teams with bone headed moves. Saban, Knox, even Philips, countless star players going back to cookie Gilchrist. After he was fired he was a class act. And still left Buffalo with on the surface at least with great regret. I met him after he was fired. Had a chance too thank him and he was unbeliveably gracious and believe it or not humble. His place is safe in Bills history. That said his time is over in the NFL. Hiring him last year could have been disastrous. Similar to Marv as a GM.
PromoTheRobot Posted October 8, 2016 Posted October 8, 2016 Much like giving too much credit to QBs, people forget GMs are only as good as their scouts. The 90s Polian was on top of his game probably because of people like Adams and Butler. Fast forward to the Colts and Polian doesn't look so smart.
Mr. WEO Posted October 8, 2016 Posted October 8, 2016 Much like giving too much credit to QBs, people forget GMs are only as good as their scouts. The 90s Polian was on top of his game probably because of people like Adams and Butler. Fast forward to the Colts and Polian doesn't look so smart. How can you say this unless you don't know who he brought in in Indy? Do any of these names ring a bell?: P Manning E James Reggie Wayne Dwight Freeney Robert Mathis Dallas Clark Cato June Bob Sanders Antoine Bethea Tim Jennings Joseph Addai Pat McAfee Austin Collie Jerry Hughes And a bunch of other guys who had been starters for years--plus guys like Jeff Saturday and Vinatieri.. Your post doesn't make you look so smart.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted October 8, 2016 Posted October 8, 2016 They had been a mostly terrible franchise before Polian/Manning And after... they have the one piece to build around everyone chases, but they can't figure it out.
jms62 Posted October 8, 2016 Posted October 8, 2016 Polian is the best GM the Bills ever had. He worked in a pre salary cap era a time when you could build and keep a great team intact. For a owner who had up to him repeatedely derailed teams with bone headed moves. Saban, Knox, even Philips, countless star players going back to cookie Gilchrist. After he was fired he was a class act. And still left Buffalo with on the surface at least with great regret. I met him after he was fired. Had a chance too thank him and he was unbeliveably gracious and believe it or not humble. His place is safe in Bills history. That said his time is over in the NFL. Hiring him last year could have been disastrous. Similar to Marv as a GM. Apples to Oranges. Marv didn't have any front Office experience and he had the bright idea to build the team with "Character" players. He failed epically . What changes on the Front Office side are so significant since Polian left the game? It is not like he is a head coach from the 80's having to adjust to todays offense or a GM that didn't have to deal with the Salary cap game.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted October 8, 2016 Posted October 8, 2016 Much like giving too much credit to QBs, people forget GMs are only as good as their scouts. The 90s Polian was on top of his game probably because of people like Adams and Butler. Fast forward to the Colts and Polian doesn't look so smart. I know 11 playoff appearances in 13 years is pathetic. 8 div titles, 2conference championships a Super Bowl. . Nothing smart there... Don't forget the panthers expansion team in the NFC conference championship in between.
bobobonators Posted October 8, 2016 Posted October 8, 2016 There is too much coincidence for it to be luck. Polian was a genius. I agree. Yeh you can get lucky with a pick. Or a trade. But to be lucky pretty much your entire career? Thats skill.
Augie Posted October 9, 2016 Posted October 9, 2016 Polian: Arguably one of the best General Managers in the history of the NFL. da Vinci, Newton, Einstein, Curie, Hawking: Geniuses I've heard Hawking has trouble implementing an aggressive 3-4 attacking scheme. Word is he struggles unless he has 2 shutdown CB's, and we know how hard that is to find. Much like giving too much credit to QBs, people forget GMs are only as good as their scouts. The 90s Polian was on top of his game probably because of people like Adams and Butler. Fast forward to the Colts and Polian doesn't look so smart. Very true and good point, but who's in charge of lining up scouts? Polian again gets credit in my book. The Colts won more SB's than the Bills.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted October 9, 2016 Posted October 9, 2016 I've heard Hawking has trouble implementing an aggressive 3-4 attacking scheme. Word is he struggles unless he has 2 shutdown CB's, and we know how hard that is to find. Very true and good point, but who's in charge of lining up scouts? Polian again gets credit in my book. The Colts won more SB's than the Bills. Don't bother with hawking, Newton is the guy you want picking your players.
Nihilarian Posted October 9, 2016 Posted October 9, 2016 Polian is the best GM the Bills ever had. He worked in a pre salary cap era a time when you could build and keep a great team intact. For a owner who had up to him repeatedely derailed teams with bone headed moves. Saban, Knox, even Philips, countless star players going back to cookie Gilchrist. After he was fired he was a class act. And still left Buffalo with on the surface at least with great regret. I met him after he was fired. Had a chance too thank him and he was unbeliveably gracious and believe it or not humble. His place is safe in Bills history. That said his time is over in the NFL. Hiring him last year could have been disastrous. Similar to Marv as a GM. How could you possibly think that? I have no idea what you do in your life to earn your living, but I suspect if you are great at your job you won't ever forget how to do it. Once you learn how to evaluate player talent that never goes away. Marv levy was a head coach, special teams coach and was never in the talent evaluation business. Bill Polian was a pro scout in the CFL, a pro scout in the NFL. A personnel director in the NFL, USFL and a 3x NFL team GM to NFL team president. I can only think that Colts owner Robert Irsay promoted Polian to team president to keep other teams from poaching him. From my view, the Buffalo Bills would be super lucky to rehire one of the very best player personnel men on the planet. He would find the team the right GM, the right HC, the right QB and the Bills would be on their way to building a team that could compete against the Patriots with Brady at QB and contend for a championship!
SinceWarMemorial Posted October 9, 2016 Posted October 9, 2016 (edited) to the OP: the man now signs his name with a "HOF" below his name. he's one of two cats who does that. /thread Edited October 9, 2016 by SinceWarMemorial
Big Turk Posted October 9, 2016 Posted October 9, 2016 In this latest Doug Whaley thread I see it always turns back to Bill Polian and how wonderful he was. But as some have pointed out a lot of rules have changed. Polian became Bills GM in 1986 and by then they had drafted Jim Kelly and Bruce Smith. Kind of hard to miss with a cornerstone on both sides of the field. Thurman fell to the 2nd round and what I believe his greatest move was fleecing the Colts for the Biscuit. Latter he went to the Colts and drafted the consensus #1 Payton Manning and was great again? ... I'm sure I will get blasted for asking a question about a Bills God. But he won with talent. Phil Jackson is great too in many eyes but he won with what many consider the greatest ever MJ with the Bulls and then Kobe and Shaq with the Lakers. As a GM with the Knicks I guess we'll see. Actually in between the Bills and Colts he went to the Panthers and built an expansion team into an NFC Championship team in 2 seasons...
justnzane Posted October 9, 2016 Posted October 9, 2016 Actually in between the Bills and Colts he went to the Panthers and built an expansion team into an NFC Championship team in 2 seasons... Not quite championship team. They made it to the conference championship game but did not win and make the Superb Owl in year 2.
dave mcbride Posted October 9, 2016 Posted October 9, 2016 Not only did Polian build 2 dynasties, but he did it THE RIGHT WAY with quality character guys. He wouldn't have gone for the knuckleheads Whaley seems to be ok with and then we pay for it when they get suspended I'm basically in agreement with you, but ... Rae Carruth in the first round. I don't know if there has ever been a lower character player in the history of the league. Much like giving too much credit to QBs, people forget GMs are only as good as their scouts. The 90s Polian was on top of his game probably because of people like Adams and Butler. Fast forward to the Colts and Polian doesn't look so smart. Reggie wayne, edgerrin james, robrert mathis, and dwight freeney all have hall of fame caliber numbers.
machine gun kelly Posted October 9, 2016 Posted October 9, 2016 His teams have a 229 - 138 win/loss record -- an astounding 62% win rate. He's taken over losing teams and turned them into contenders for a championship. In his 23 years, his teams have put up double digit wins in 15 of those seasons. That's a pretty long lucky streak. So that's basically a 9.9 year win season avg. for 23 years including any bad years, he basically was almost always a 10+ win team for his career. I want his luck if anyone is asking that position. The man is in the freakin HOF, with very few GM's in that club.
BADOLBILZ Posted October 9, 2016 Posted October 9, 2016 Good.....at times excellent........but not a genius and definitely overrated. His stubborness cost him many a ring and that was not genius. Two HOF QB's playing at a high level for almost 20 years of tenure as a GM and only one ring to show for it speaks VOLUMES to my above point. Butler was the better personnel man but he didn't have those early picks to work with in Buffalo. (people point to his last Bills draft but the following year in SD he drafted a HOF RB and HOF QB with his first two picks so shaddupppp! ) Somebody gave Polian CREDIT for trading Marshall Faulk? That was an AWFUL trade. I'm a 'Canes fan and James was a very good player even if his numbers were inflated playing with an ascending Peyton Manning...... but when you have a HOF/MVP talent at RB and need defensive help you don't trade it away for cheap then use the second overall pick in the draft on another RB. Think Champ Bailey would have helped that Colts defense a little? Got in a pissing match with an agent and his hard head got the best of him. I remember being thankful for that stupid trade, the Bills were competitive and the last thing we needed was a super team in Indy going dynasty on the AFC.....in essence they gave away their #2 over draft pick that year....zero net gain. But that was Polian's weakness in a nutshell.......temper got the best of him, whether it was with an agent or the media/fans telling him he needed a real NT or FS or whatever. It cost him MANY rings.
jms62 Posted October 9, 2016 Posted October 9, 2016 Good.....at times excellent........but not a genius and definitely overrated. His stubborness cost him many a ring and that was not genius. Two HOF QB's playing at a high level for almost 20 years of tenure as a GM and only one ring to show for it speaks VOLUMES to my above point. Butler was the better personnel man but he didn't have those early picks to work with in Buffalo. (people point to his last Bills draft but the following year in SD he drafted a HOF RB and HOF QB with his first two picks so shaddupppp! ) Somebody gave Polian CREDIT for trading Marshall Faulk? That was an AWFUL trade. I'm a 'Canes fan and James was a very good player even if his numbers were inflated playing with an ascending Peyton Manning...... but when you have a HOF/MVP talent at RB and need defensive help you don't trade it away for cheap then use the second overall pick in the draft on another RB. Think Champ Bailey would have helped that Colts defense a little? Got in a pissing match with an agent and his hard head got the best of him. I remember being thankful for that stupid trade, the Bills were competitive and the last thing we needed was a super team in Indy going dynasty on the AFC.....in essence they gave away their #2 over draft pick that year....zero net gain. But that was Polian's weakness in a nutshell.......temper got the best of him, whether it was with an agent or the media/fans telling him he needed a real NT or FS or whatever. It cost him MANY rings. With all due respect. Butler lived off the players Polian put in place and when they were gone he was justifiably shown the door.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 9, 2016 Posted October 9, 2016 (edited) Somebody gave Polian CREDIT for trading Marshall Faulk? That was an AWFUL trade. I'm a 'Canes fan and James was a very good player even if his numbers were inflated playing with an ascending Peyton Manning...... but when you have a HOF/MVP talent at RB and need defensive help you don't trade it away for cheap then use the second overall pick in the draft on another RB. This is an interesting point. The Faulk trade to the Rams is widely regarded as lopsided (in favor of the Rams) and a poor deal for the Colts. Context: The Colts went 13-3 and won the AFC East that year, but lost the division round to the 13-3 Titans, who eventually lost the Superbowl to the 13-3 Rams. The 1-2 punch of Faulk's 1300 yd rushing/>1000 yd receiving and Warner's >4000 yd arm made the Rams pretty tough to stop. James was a talented rusher, but it's probably the Colts #18 ranked defense that sank them in the playoffs; most football people would say, when you have a super-talented RB who can catch, you do not trade him to draft another, that's silly. Look for a talented player who can help your weak point (D) Ultimately, the title of this thread is a false dichotomy between "genius" and "lucky". There's no question that Bill Polian was a supremely skilled football executive who built winning franchises in 3 cities. But BadOl has a point: ultimately, Polian's ego and inability to compromise/get along held him back from a level of success that he could have achieved. The most telling story is from Marv Levy: "Later that night, Levy went to Wilson’s hotel room and made a case for his friend, arguing that Polian was the best general manager in football, a superb personnel evaluator, a terrific negotiator, and one of the smartest people in the game. Wilson gave Levy a fatherly smile and said, “Marv, everything you said about Bill’s merits I agree with. But we just don’t get along.” Edited October 9, 2016 by Hapless Bills Fan
justnzane Posted October 9, 2016 Posted October 9, 2016 Somebody gave Polian CREDIT for trading Marshall Faulk? That was an AWFUL trade. I'm a 'Canes fan and James was a very good player even if his numbers were inflated playing with an ascending Peyton Manning...... but when you have a HOF/MVP talent at RB and need defensive help you don't trade it away for cheap then use the second overall pick in the draft on another RB. I gave him credit as the trade prevented Faulk from destroying Indy on the cap. They got Mike Peterson (a solid LB) as part of the trade, and enabled them to draft Edge. By trading Faulk, they were able to retain Manning Faulk and Harrison down the line. Faulk and James were the top 2 RBs in the league for the next 3 years, and without Manning, Harrison, James, and Glenn they would have been the same sad franchise that was a cream puff joke in the early 90's. Sometimes, you have to get value for a stud before you lose him in free agency, like Belichek does routinely.
Recommended Posts