Would just like to point out...

[metzelaars_lives]

 

They def. took this approach to focus on D in the draft - until Rd 4. The legitimate questions are whether there was a WR they could have taken in FA, or in Rd 4-7 or UDFA who could have come in and helped in some capacity this year, as opposed to the speedy and relatively small Kolby Listenbee, whose sports hernia essentially made him a long-term project in addition to his draft profile description as "Listenbee is a sprinter who plays wide receiver" known to have run a simple route tree and to lack sophistication in change of direction etc.

 

The decision to draft Jonathan Williams in the 5th makes more sense retrospectively - players talk so even though Karlos missed voluntary off-season conditioning they probably knew there was a problem if they didn't already know about the drug tests. But there are a couple of WR who were drafted in the 5th round who are contributing pretty nicely, and there are also some FA who were picked up by other teams and are doing well, so those guys were there.

 

I don't mourn Hogan. I know he was hurt last year, I know he had off-season surgery on his wrist tendons last year, I know he has some very decent numbers considering who was throwing to him/passing game, but there's just something about the way he plays I don't like. It certainly can be argued he made his best play as a Bill last weekend . But I'd rather take my chances on Salas, who has shown some promise and similar decent numbers considering who was throwing to him (and Lal ought to know what we've got) and see what we have with Powell.

 

 

ugh, et tu metzelaars?

Hey I thought they'd lose each of the last two weeks too so I'm sticking with that approach until further notice.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

And yet in the offseason everyone was ripping Whaley for not upgrading the right side, and how bad Miller is. He was a rookie last year, I believe more than any position offensive line is where the rookie wall hits the worst as typically lineman play all game as long as they are healthy, there's little rotation, so likely by November or so he was gassed. Just as two seasons back Henderson started out as rookie of the month in Sept, as the season went on, he tired out, then last season was a complete write off as he was in pain already back in August it sounded like.

 

But here no one has patience and expects instant pro-bowl level. If not replace him.

 

 

To add to Metz's list our most consistent starter on offense has been the 2nd year guard he picked up in the 3rd round too...

 

Well he certainly won't be alone in that regards, half the teams in the league are seeking an answer, and many of the other, NE included got more lucky than anything. Picki ng Brady I nthe 6th round wasn't the result of a smart front office, more just dumb luck that he was still available, and he became what he is.

 

 

Except Sammy, and LeSean and TD Mike and John Miller and Richie..... and retaining Glenn...

 

 

I am yet to be convinced he has found the answer at QB - and we all know that matters more than anything and I do think he left us without any depth at receiver this year.

[Marty McFly]

 

Except Sammy, and LeSean and TD Mike and John Miller and Richie..... and retaining Glenn...

 

 

I am yet to be convinced he has found the answer at QB - and we all know that matters more than anything and I do think he left us without any depth at receiver this year.

this.

 

 

All those guys are defensive except Karlos and as you say no one has picked him up.

 

 

Whaley has done well on defense but has failed on offense.

and Henderson has played real well for a 7th round pick too!

Hes just not good at drafting Qbs but even a broken clock is right twice a day, so well have one sooner or later

[metzelaars_lives]

this.

 

and Henderson has played real well for a 7th round pick too!

Hes just not good at drafting Qbs but even a broken clock is right twice a day, so well have one sooner or later

No one is "good" or "bad" at drafting quarterbacks. Are the Colts less good at drafting quarterbacks because Luck has regressed? Are the Falcons better at drafting quarterbacks now that Matt Ryan has upped his game a level? Teams are good at grooming quarterbacks. Case and point, if Dak Prescott was on the Bills, he wouldn't look this good and if Trent Edwards got to sit behind Tom Brady for a few years and play for Belichick, he probably would have looked just fine. And more than anything, when it comes to quarterbacks especially, it's a total freaking crapshoot.

 

And I know it's become cliche but it's so true- drafting Brady was not some stroke of genius, it was plain, dumb luck. If the Patriots knew he was going to be the best qb of all time, they wouldn't have waited til the 6th round to draft him.

Edited October 6, 2016 by metzelaars_lives

[DrDawkinstein]

No one is "good" or "bad" at drafting quarterbacks. Are the Colts less good at drafting quarterbacks because Luck has regressed? Are the Falcons better at drafting quarterbacks now that Matt Ryan has upped his game a level? Teams are good at grooming quarterbacks. Case and point, if Dak Prescott was on the Bills, he wouldn't look this good and if Trent Edwards got to sit behind Tom Brady for a few years and play for Belichick, he probably would have looked just fine. And more than anything, when it comes to quarterbacks especially, it's a total freaking crapshoot.

 

Dont get me started on the Colts. Irsay must have one of those horseshoes from their helmets lodged up his keister. How else do you explain the same team ending up with the #1 overall pick for Elway, Manning, and Luck??? It's unbelievable. No one is smart or savvy enough to actually plan that and pull it off

[billykaykay]

 

I like his drafting for the most part. But if he is that good, and the scouting staff is bolstered with Pegula bucks... it would be better if he wasnt spending multiple picks on Watkins, Ragland, and Bryce Brown. Would rather he trade down and get more good players.

 

One example is 2013 (a draft I put on Whaley for good and bad, its ludicrous to think he was bound and gagged while Nix forced picks on him). Traded down, still had a shot at a QB (wrong move)... but also was able to get Kiko Alonso, Marquis Goodwin, and Chris Gragg with the windfall... and also was able to pick Robert Woods, Meeks, and Duke Williams.... (Dustin Hopkins too who is good but Carpenter was un-cuttable)

 

 

If Whaley has a knack for identifying talent, that is more the reason to stack draft picks. Imagine the assets they would have had if they had traded down from #9 in 2014 instead of up for Watkins. Still could have gotten Derek Carr or Kelvin Benjamin no matter how far they traded down, plus had a pile of picks, as well as hanging on to their 2015 1st and 4th... plus a whole lot more from the trade.

hindsight ???

[Rico]

Hey I thought they'd lose each of the last two weeks too so I'm sticking with that approach until further notice.

Keep winning all the way into the playoffs and you'll get no complaints from me, I'll gladly take my hat off to Bills management & everyone can stay... at least until the next time they miss the playoffs.

[Marty McFly]

No one is "good" or "bad" at drafting quarterbacks. Are the Colts less good at drafting quarterbacks because Luck has regressed? Are the Falcons better at drafting quarterbacks now that Matt Ryan has upped his game a level? Teams are good at grooming quarterbacks. Case and point, if Dak Prescott was on the Bills, he wouldn't look this good and if Trent Edwards got to sit behind Tom Brady for a few years and play for Belichick, he probably would have looked just fine. And more than anything, when it comes to quarterbacks especially, it's a total freaking crapshoot.

 

And I know it's become cliche but it's so true- drafting Brady was not some stroke of genius, it was plain, dumb luck. If the Patriots knew he was going to be the best qb of all time, they wouldn't have waited til the 6th round to draft him.

thats a great way to put it. Its like if you grow trees, the amount of attention, detail, sunlight and nutrients you give the trees, and the time you choose to harvest them will determine how nice the buds yielded are.

[DrDawkinstein]

thats a great way to put it. Its like if you grow trees, the amount of attention, detail, sunlight and nutrients you give the trees, and the time you choose to harvest them will determine how nice the buds yielded are.

 

"trees"

[Buffalo Barbarian]

 

Except Sammy, and LeSean and TD Mike and John Miller and Richie..... and retaining Glenn...

 

 

I am yet to be convinced he has found the answer at QB - and we all know that matters more than anything and I do think he left us without any depth at receiver this year.

 

Glenn wasn't his pick any idiot could keep him, we only got Ritchie because NOBODY wanted him, Watkins - what has he done? plus trading up for was stupid in a great WR draft would take Benjamin over him, paying ten million for an old RB on the decline genius, Miller is no star.

 

this.

 

and Henderson has played real well for a 7th round pick too!

Hes just not good at drafting Qbs but even a broken clock is right twice a day, so well have one sooner or later

 

Henderson was brutal last yr and is no great shakes but decent pick for a 7th

Edited October 7, 2016 by Buffalo Barbarian

[Nihilarian]

Should the team make the playoffs this year than everything is rainbows, unicorns, and roses! If they don't make the playoffs I'll be surprised if anyone stays.

 

The simple truth is that Whaley knows defensive talent and has not done so great in the draft with offensive talent. If the team could find elite offensive talent in the draft they wouldn't have needed to spend big money to sign McCoy, Clay or used three draft picks on Watkins in a draft loaded with great WR talent. The mere fact that Whaley let it be known that he would have drafted TE Eric Ebron if the Watkins trade fell through tells us the offensive scouts aren't good enough and neither are the team's medical player evaluation people.

 

Look at some the players signed with bad medical history and the team just ignored those facts. Kevin Kolb-OG Chris Williams-Kiko -Glass Goodwin- Watkins- Percy Harvin-Kounadjio- Henderson- Lawson-Ragland. Nine players on IR right now and another 8 questionable. I know I've missed some players. Millions wasted on players like Williams and Harvin on contracts for players who played so few games can't go over so well.

 

Speaking of not so bright signings, who had the bright idea to put a walk away clause in Marroons contract, or to sign Rex for five years?

[Samwell Tarly]

The two biggest problems on Whaley's resume:

Watkins:Super talented, but will he ever be healthy enough to deliver on the price paid to get him? Plus had other viable options in that draft.

 

Manuel: I wanted this to work for a long time, he has everything you want in your qb except elite ability (sadly quite important). Although, did Nix really stick Whaley with EJ or was he truly on board? Was a bad year to have to draft a qb. All the guys that year had huge question marks.

 

Outside of that, he seems to have a better bead on talent than anyone here since Butler or Polian.

[TPS]

 

I like his drafting for the most part. But if he is that good, and the scouting staff is bolstered with Pegula bucks... it would be better if he wasnt spending multiple picks on Watkins, Ragland, and Bryce Brown. Would rather he trade down and get more good players.

 

One example is 2013 (a draft I put on Whaley for good and bad, its ludicrous to think he was bound and gagged while Nix forced picks on him). Traded down, still had a shot at a QB (wrong move)... but also was able to get Kiko Alonso, Marquis Goodwin, and Chris Gragg with the windfall... and also was able to pick Robert Woods, Meeks, and Duke Williams.... (Dustin Hopkins too who is good but Carpenter was un-cuttable)

 

 

If Whaley has a knack for identifying talent, that is more the reason to stack draft picks. Imagine the assets they would have had if they had traded down from #9 in 2014 instead of up for Watkins. Still could have gotten Derek Carr or Kelvin Benjamin no matter how far they traded down, plus had a pile of picks, as well as hanging on to their 2015 1st and 4th... plus a whole lot more from the trade.

Whaley doesn't get much credit for assembling an excellent staff. Once hired, he immediately brought in Monos and Fisher. I agree with the sentiment that draft picks matter because he and his staff have made solid picks in all rounds; however, he and his staff make up for trading picks by finding FA talent that one might normally develop from picks in the later rounds. Rather than waiting 2-3 years for picks to develop, the alternative strategy is to find players who have had some time on practice squads or vets who provide a role.

 

While one can find examples to criticize Whaley, taken as a whole, he AND his staff have put together the most talented Bills roster we've had in a long, long time.

[GunnerBill]

Agree with that TPS and that is my point. Whaley and the pro-personnel side are among the best in the league at finding nuggets either in dust settles Free Agency or sitting at home / on a practice squad during the season. Given that I don't mind them being aggressive with our draft assets to try and find guys who can be top quality players, because they fill the roster out with guys who can contribute better than most.

[Thurman#1]

I just came on here for the first time today and literally five of the threads on the main wall were as follows:

 

1. Lorenzo Alexander is actually good

2. Zach Brown is like our best player

3. Jairus Byrd benched

4. Nigel Bradham arrested on weapons charge

5. Karlos Williams' suspension is up and no one has yet to claim him

 

But yeah, Whaley is an abomination.

 

 

 

Who's criticizing Whaley for cutting Karlos Williams when he was 30 pounds overweight and actually gaining weight? Worth remembering Whaley's the one who brought him in too.

 

And a good deal of the question about Byrd is that the Saints appear to be using him badly.

 

"When Rob Ryan was fired as Defensive Coordinator of the New Orleans Saints he was not shy about speaking out against his former organization. One of his gripes was that the New Orleans Saints were not correctly utilizing Safety Jairus Byrd. After the release of CB Brandon Browner, Byrd has become somewhat of the fans' new scapegoat/punching bag. With continued poor play (whether due to poor usage in personnel/play-calling or due to a sheer diminishing of talent), Byrd was benched for the team's most recent game against the San Diego Chargers, giving way to rookie S Vonn Bell out of Ohio State."

 

http://www.canalstreetchronicles.com/2016/10/6/13190672/what-should-new-orleans-saints-do-with-jairus-byrd

 

But yeah, Lorenzo Alexander and Zac Brown appear to have been really good pickups. But even there there's a question about how much of their fine play has been due to a defense that appears to finally understand the scheme they're playing, a scheme built around keeping the LBs clean, a scheme that has historically made ILBs look very very good?

 

Whaley's done some very good things. And some very bad things. How this team performs for the rest of the season should go a long way towards figuring out how much credit Whaley is due.

Edited October 7, 2016 by Thurman#1

[Maury Ballstein]

Lol Byrd excuses. Give Whaley a bonus for letting that scrub walk.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

If I remember correctly, he was rookie of the month in Sept 2014 season and everyone was raving about him.

 

You're correct he was brutal last year, can't understand why he couldn't play better while battling Crones Disease.

 

 

 

Henderson was brutal last yr and is no great shakes but decent pick for a 7th

[Thurman#1]

Agree with that TPS and that is my point. Whaley and the pro-personnel side are among the best in the league at finding nuggets either in dust settles Free Agency or sitting at home / on a practice squad during the season. Given that I don't mind them being aggressive with our draft assets to try and find guys who can be top quality players, because they fill the roster out with guys who can contribute better than most.

 

 

 

Yeah? I mean, maybe but I don't think it's all that clear.

 

Here are some he's brought in? Leonard Hankerson, Velasco, Boobie Dixon, MarQueis Gray, Stefan Charles, Josh Johnson, Cierre Wood, Alex Carrington, Ty Powell, Bacarri Rambo, Jim Dray, Brown and Alexander, Sterling Moore, Robert Blanton, Colt Anderson, Gillislee, Salas, Jordan Mills, Incognito, Mario Butler, Colton Schmidt, Charles Clay (not looking so far like he's even close to living up to his contract, IMHO), James Wilder Jr., Jarrett Boykin, Blake Annen, Javier Arentas, Percy Harvin, Tyrod Taylor, Jarius Wynn, Keith Rivers, Manny Lawson, Matt Cassel, Jerome Felton, McCoy (who's played well, but I don't know if he's playing better than you'd expect from what they're paying), Enemkpali, Ryan Groy, Boom Herron, Denarius More, AJ Tarpley, Jerel Worthy, Marcus Thigpen ...

 

Some good players there. Some disappointments too. Is the record great? This is his fourth offseason. You'd expect a bunch of FAs to succeed even on an average GM's watch during that time.

 

On defense 8 out of 11 starters were draftees or came in under Buddy Nix (Corbin Bryant). With Marcell coming back most likely that number will go up soon. On offense, Whaley FAs are Incognito (a home run so far), Jordan Mills, Tyrod and the two high-paid guys, McCoy and Clay.

 

Is that really a spectacular record? I'm not so sure. It's an interesting line of thought, IMHO. Gotta love Zach Brown, though, and Lorenzo Alexander's playing very well too. Overall, though, I'm not sure.

Lol Byrd excuses. Give Whaley a bonus for letting that scrub walk.

 

 

 

LOL Byrd hate.

 

We offered him a lot of money. In a system he was good at, he was playing at an extremely high level. Hasn't played well for the Saints, but like it or not it's a legit question whether he could have been playing really well here. Dunno how he'd fit under Ryan, though, so that's worth questioning too.

 

And outside of Aaron Williams - who played his best football next to Byrd - our safeties since have been journeymen and liabilities.

Edited October 7, 2016 by Thurman#1

[YattaOkasan]

 

 

 

Yeah? I mean, maybe but I don't think it's all that clear.

 

Here are some he's brought in? Leonard Hankerson, Velasco, Boobie Dixon, MarQueis Gray, Stefan Charles, Josh Johnson, Cierre Wood, Alex Carrington, Ty Powell, Bacarri Rambo, Jim Dray, Brown and Alexander, Sterling Moore, Robert Blanton, Colt Anderson, Gillislee, Salas, Jordan Mills, Incognito, Mario Butler, Colton Schmidt, Charles Clay (not looking so far like he's even close to living up to his contract, IMHO), James Wilder Jr., Jarrett Boykin, Blake Annen, Javier Arentas, Percy Harvin, Tyrod Taylor, Jarius Wynn, Keith Rivers, Manny Lawson, Matt Cassel, Jerome Felton, McCoy (who's played well, but I don't know if he's playing better than you'd expect from what they're paying), Enemkpali, Ryan Groy, Boom Herron, Denarius More, AJ Tarpley, Jerel Worthy, Marcus Thigpen ...

 

Some good players there. Some disappointments too. Is the record great? This is his fourth offseason. You'd expect a bunch of FAs to succeed even on an average GM's watch during that time.

 

On defense 8 out of 11 starters were draftees or came in under Buddy Nix (Corbin Bryant). With Marcell coming back most likely that number will go up soon. On offense, Whaley FAs are Incognito (a home run so far), Jordan Mills, Tyrod and the two high-paid guys, McCoy and Clay.

 

Is that really a spectacular record? I'm not so sure. It's an interesting line of thought, IMHO. Gotta love Zach Brown, though, and Lorenzo Alexander's playing very well too. Overall, though, I'm not sure.

 

 

 

LOL Byrd hate.

 

We offered him a lot of money. In a system he was good at, he was playing at an extremely high level. Hasn't played well for the Saints, but like it or not it's a legit question whether he could have been playing really well here. Dunno how he'd fit under Ryan, though, so that's worth questioning too.

 

And outside of Aaron Williams - who played his best football next to Byrd - our safeties since have been journeymen and liabilities.

Lot to point out that I disagree with. Just to start on you D stat, does whaley not get credit for his good defensive draft picks (Darby and Brown?) and his FA signings look good (Hughes, Brown, Alexander). We havent even seen this years players so we will need wait but I assume at least one will be pretty good. As has been stated before, that list of FA signings looks like an average FA class for a GM. It could be a great one if TT pans out. Arguably TT has already shown great investment and at this point he is developing and is now in the coach's hands. All the Byrd stuff is speculation to me. I think the team's record with Whaley says what he is, an average but trending up GM (I'm starting from his first full offseason).

Edited October 7, 2016 by YattaOkasan

[Thurman#1]

 

He did try and re-sign Byrd but at a contract that was reasonable for a safety. They had their limit and refused to be bullied into going higher - that is good GM-ship. On Spiller they were trying to sign him until a better option came along.

 

I also disagree that he overpays as a rule - Clay he definitely did, McCoy can be argued.... but the trade up for Watkins was a good one, I still believe that.

 

Draft picks only matter as a mechanism for acquiring talented players... the goal isn't to have as many draft picks as possible..... it is to pick as many talented guys as possible and within that to get as many "elite talents" as possible. Whaley has done a good job in that regard.

 

 

 

You mean ellite talents like Odell Beckham (no, I don' t like him as a person either)? Or Kelvin Benjamin? Or Jarvis Landry? Or Mike Evans if he'd fallen to #9 with Watkins still available? Or Brandin Cooks or Allen Robinson? All available in that same draft, a draft considered well in advance to be a sensational one for WRs.

 

Yeah, picks are for bringing in players and that's all they matter for. And we could have brought in two more, including such guys as C Cameron Erving, WR Nelson Agholor, OT Cedric Ogbuehi, OLB Bud Dupree, DE Shane Ray, OT DJ Humphries, OLB Shaq Thompson, WR Breshad Perriman, CB Byron Jones, G Laken Tomlinson, WR Philip Dosett, S Damarious Randall, LB Stephone Anthony, DT Malcom Brown, S Landon Collins and OT Donovan Smith. Those were the next bunch of players drafted, in order, after the pick we traded away in the first the next year. And that's ignoring the 4th rounder we'd also have had. A lot of guys there who could help.

 

And as yet, no way to call Watkins an elite talent based on production.

 

It could still work out decently down the line, but so far it looks like a bad trade.

 

 

 

Agreed on the Spiller move and that the Byrd move saved a bunch of money at the very least. I would have signed Byrd, but yeah it was a lot of money, maybe too much. But IMHO he indeed spent too much on several contracts, including the two you mentioned and Harvin.

 

 

 

 

I'm not against Whaley yet. I just think the jury's still out. He's done a lot of bad things and a lot of good ones.

Edited October 7, 2016 by Thurman#1