Whaley has been a complete failure as a GM

[Augie]

Marrone wasn't the HC still in waiting in summer 2014. He had already lived through a very messy QB situation in 2013, and he wasn't about to do it again.

I was speaking to the soundness of judgment of a guy who gave up a HC job to be an OL coach.

 

But we can agree to disagree.

Edited October 2, 2016 by Augie

[The Big Cat]

I was speaking to the soundness of judgment of a guy who gave up a HC job to be an OL coach.

 

But we can agree to disagree.

 

Tough to discuss things with a person who's certain of his own conjecture.

[pimp on da' net]

If were being honest here. Outside of maybe 1 or 2 good FA pickups his drafts and personnel decisions have been below average. I see people every day claiming how he is one of the "best GM's in football". What a load of crap. What exactly has this guy done to get that title?

 

Idc what you say, he drafted EJ. Picking a 1st round QB in possibly the worst QB class in the last 15 years was awful decision making. He then supported EJ and tried to get him weapons, that ended up failing big time. Watkins has been an injury prone nightmare. His 2016 draft has already had 2 guys out for the year and 1 guy who will miss half. Karlos williams was a disaster. Darby has prob been his best pick but he has only had 1 good season.

 

Our WR depth and oline depth is a complete joke, he has done NOTHING to address this so far. Sammy went into training camp injured and we still didn't pick anyone up. Clay has been a waste of money, and McCoy is aging fast.

 

Whaley is not the guy that should be staying with this team for the future. We are 1-2 soon to be 1-3 and does anyone really see this team making the playoffs this year? What do we even have to look forward to? Does anyone trust this guy picking another QB in the draft? B/c I don't.

 

Even before Rex, Whaley should be gone. New GM can find his own staff and scouts.

 

 

 

HILARIOUS!!!

 

Never let facts get in the way of your argument, eerrr, opinion...Not pandemonium but fandemonium!

[GunnerBill]

I'd like you to expand on your thoughts on the contract. The team essentially threw money at TT for this season and then inflated the numbers on his new contract. In doing so they not only gave away 6 or so million for this season they threw away their ability to go into camp next year with a serviceable QB who at the worst provides a floor at the position.

 

Say TT had a great year...which no one outside of Buffalo was fearful of....then pay him. Why push these gigantic numbers in year two for a player that had so much to prove? Hope it wasn't because he is a nice guy and comes to work each day....

 

Now next year you bank up or bust out and then the team is sitting there staring at Cardale in TC as the presumed starter. The other side of the coin was TT not improving and continuing to show the same symptoms of an athlete playing QB and not a QB playing QB...then you could have bumped him up a few million and offered your team an acceptable floor heading into TC.

 

I like Cardale, I wanted him drafted. He may or may not be ahead of TT next TC but I wouldn't have thrown away millions so I could find that out so soon.

TT was a FA after this year in any event. So we have not robbed ourselves of a chance to have him at a low salary next year. That was never an option. At the worst next year he was getting a Fitz like contract.

 

We gave him an extra few million this offseason so that, in the event he did take the step we were all hoping, he was tied to us. If it worked out we had our Franchise guy and have him at reasonable rates.

 

If it doesn't we can cut ties almost for nothing.

 

The idea that we could have not paid him this year and then got him next year at a cheap price after 2 years as a starter is fantasy.

[Bill from NYC]

This is only partly true. Whaley has gone for "the bomb" on a couple of occasions in the draft. Many NFL GMs took Shaq off their draft boards because of his medical e v a l. Whaley and the Bills went for it. Williams wasn't on everyone's draft board because of his issues at FSU. Whaley and the Bills went for it.

 

I'm not even laying this purely on Whaley, as the Bills have a history of doing this. The circus that led up to the EJ Manuel "panic buy" could be blamed on the old clown rather than the guys that did the leg work, I guess. But the system of high-risk picks didn't start there. The Willis McGahee pick. The Aaron Maybin pick. Trading up for the bust McCargo, hoping he'd be as good as Haloti Ngata. Spiller when they had Lynch. The trade for JP Losman because the Aaron Rodgers class was no good.

 

His job is to wed the roster with the coaching staff's philosophies and do it all while managing the cap and contracts. Mario Williams quitting last year was a bad sign in that regard. The free fall of the defense was deeply troubling. EJ Manuel's struggles haven't shown the Bills have improved in QB evaluation.

 

It's not all Doug Whaley's fault, obviously.

 

But I disagree with the summary. Doug Whaley's job as GM is to put together all of the parts of a winning organization. Anybody with a copy of Ourlads can "find" talent.

Great post!

 

My take is that Whaley, like Rex, has little to no discipline. A new, huge contract for a guy called "Shady?" The Watkins deal? Who was the rb he gave a 4th to Philly for? How much for Clay?

 

Whaley imo is a decent judge of talent. I happen to think he lacks the maturity and self control to do business with polished GMs.

[What a Tuel]

Great post!

 

My take is that Whaley, like Rex, has little to no discipline. A new, huge contract for a guy called "Shady?" The Watkins deal? Who was the rb he gave a 4th to Philly for? How much for Clay?

 

Whaley imo is a decent judge of talent. I happen to think he lacks the maturity and self control to do business with polished GMs.

 

Shady is the core of our offense right now, especially with Sammy Watkins out.

 

The Watkins deal was fine, trying to give any QB we have the tools to be successful. People hold up the rest of that WR class, but a lot of them have missed more time, or simply aren't as good despite their fantasy football crushes on them.

 

Bryce Brown I agree with. Sometimes GM's miss though.

 

Clay is currently the 7th highest paid Tight End on average salary, and we currently spend 14th in the league at the Tight End position.

 

I think Bills fans need a little self control.

[26CornerBlitz]

Great post!

 

My take is that Whaley, like Rex, has little to no discipline. A new, huge contract for a guy called "Shady?" The Watkins deal? Who was the rb he gave a 4th to Philly for? How much for Clay?

 

Whaley imo is a decent judge of talent. I happen to think he lacks the maturity and self control to do business with polished GMs.

 

I wonder what orifice you pulled this from. Wherever it is, Ryan Grigson agrees.

Edited October 2, 2016 by 26CornerBlitz

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Idc what you say

 

I think that about sums it up.

While I've seen a bunch assert he's the best GM buffalo has had in a long time, I didn't see the "best in football" one anywhere worth remembering.

 

 

And while I personally would agree that Whaley is the best GM Buffalo has had in a long time, I must acknowledge that it's a rather low bar

I agree I have not seen anyone here suggesting Whaley is the "best GM in football" or anywhere close

Edited October 2, 2016 by Hapless Bills Fan

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Stay the course. Bad teams fire coaches/GMs annually.

Lets fix this!

All aboard the ss mediocre continuity!

[jethro_tull]

He has failed to field a playoff competitive roster.

The Bills are 5 and 12 vs. playoff teams (including last week's AZ win). One of those games was against the Patriots at the end of the season when they had already clinched.

Basically 4 and 13 against playoff teams. That's .307 for anyone keeping score. Good batting average, not so good in football.

Also, is he responsible for this list (ultimately)? What a disgrace this list is.

Current Injuries:

Current Injuries:

Shaq Lawson DE Shoulder I-R Lawson will require surgery to repair his right shoulder and has been placed on the PUP list. He is eligible to return October 23rd against the Dolphins.

Kolby Listenbee WR Hernia I-R Listenbee had offseason double sports hernia surgery and has been placed on the injured reserve - non football injury list. He is eligible to return against the Dolphins on October 23rd.

Marcus Easley WR Knee I-R Easley is recovering from knee surgery and will start the season on the PUP list. He is eligible to return October 23rd against the Dolphins.

Blake Annen TE Neck I-R Annen has been placed on the season-ending injured reserve list with a neck injury.

IK Enemkpali LB Knee I-R Enemkpali suffered a torn ACL and has been placed on the season-ending injured reserve list.

Sammy Watkins WR Foot I-R Watkins has been placed on injured reserve with a foot injury.

Chris Gragg TE Knee I-R Gragg tore his ACL and is expected to miss the entire season as he was placed on the injured reserve list.

Jonathan Dowling DB Knee I-R Dowling tore his ACL during the preseason and has been placed on the injured reserve list, ending his season.

Reggie Ragland LB Knee I-R Ragland will have surgery to repair a torn ACL in his left knee and has been placed on the season-ending injured reserve list.

Greg Salas WR Groin out Salas will be inactive against the Patriots due to a groin injury.

Cyrus Kouandjio T Ankle out Kouandjio is hampered by an ankle injury and will be unavailable against the Patriots on Sunday.

Patrick Lewis C Knee out Lewis has an injured knee and will not suit up for Sunday's game against the Patriots.

Seantrel Henderson T Suspension out Henderson has been suspended four games for a violation of the NFL Policy and Program for Substances of Abuse and is eligible to play against the Rams on October 9th.

Marcell Dareus DT Suspension out Dareus has been issued a four game suspension for violating the league's substance abuse policy and is eligible to make his season debut October 9th against the Rams.

Jonathan Meeks DB Foot questionable Meeks is hampered by a foot injury and it is undetermined if he will participate in Sunday's game against the Patriots.

Aaron Williams S Ankle questionable Williams is sidelined with an ankle injury and it is unclear if he will be active against the Patriots on Sunday.

Charles Clay TE Knee questionable Clay is battling a knee injury and it is unknown if he will be available Sunday against the Patriots.

Colt Anderson S Foot questionable Anderson has a foot injury and his availability against the Patriots on Sunday is in question.

Ronald Darby CB Hamstring questionable Darby missed the last game with a hamstring injury and it is unclear if he will play Sunday against the Patriots.

Marquise Goodwin WR Undisclosed questionable Goodwin has an unspecified injury and his status is unclear for Sunday's game against the Patriots.

Cardale Jones QB Shoulder questionable Jones has missed the last three games with an injured shoulder and it is unclear if will be available against the Patriots on Sunday.

Cordy Glenn T Ankle questionable Glenn has missed last two games with an ankle injury and it is unclear if he will suit up Sunday against the Patriots.

[Bubba Gump]

Now it comes out this morning that the Bills/Whaley knew Sammy's foot might be a long term issue before the draft in April, yet still did absolutely nothing to cover their arse.

Edited October 2, 2016 by Bubba Gump

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Now it comes out this morning that the Bills/Whaley knew Sammy's foot might be a long term issue before the draft in April, yet still did absolutely nothing to cover their arse.

Stay the course!!

[BrooklynBills]

If EJ was not Whaley's guy, he wouldn't have gone all out to get him a top prospect WR in the next year's draft. If EJ wasn't his choice, he could have easily distanced himself from the pick by bringing in another QB the next year when he officially became the GM. But he didn't. He had to be dragged into bringing in Kyle Orton in TC; so much so that there were visible arguments between Marrone and Whaley on the field.

 

When they fired Gailey, Brandon and Whaley took over, and Nix was phased out of decision making. Nix "retired" right after the draft. His "retirement" was Brandon spin and purely a way for the organization to get rid of him without outright firing him. It was painfully obvious to anyone watching without Bills-colored glasses on.

 

EJ is absolutely on Doug Whaley.

Now it comes out this morning that the Bills/Whaley knew Sammy's foot might be a long term issue before the draft in April, yet still did absolutely nothing to cover their arse.

 

Their front office decision making is based on "hope and a prayer" and not on analytical thinking. They are constantly reactive in their thinking. And it always seems like we are behind the 8-ball with regards to the roster because of it.

[thebandit27]

I still don't understand how anyone can call the drafting of EJ a mistake given the circumstances.

 

The mistakes would be before and after that vis-a-vis:

 

Not picking Dalton it Wilson

Not grabbing another potential franchise QB in 2014 or 2015

[JohnC]

[i still don't understand how anyone can call the drafting of EJ a mistake given the circumstances.[/b]

 

The mistakes would be before and after that vis-a-vis:

 

Not picking Dalton it Wilson

Not grabbing another potential franchise QB in 2014 or 2015

The drafting of EJ in the first round was a mistake. The problem with feeling compelled to draft a player to fill a desperate need when that player doesn't fill the talent requirement is an act of futility. You are right that there were opportunities to draft good prospects in prior year that weren't taken, but you don't resolve the problem by reaching with your draft selections in subsequent drafts. The end result is that you don't successfully address the position need and you lose an opportunity to address another need.

[thebandit27]

The drafting of EJ in the first round was a mistake. The problem with feeling compelled to draft a player to fill a desperate need when that player doesn't fill the talent requirement is an act of futility. You are right that there were opportunities to draft good prospects in prior year that weren't taken, but you don't resolve the problem by reaching with your draft selections in subsequent drafts. The end result is that you don't successfully address the position need and you lose an opportunity to address another need.

Here's where we disagree:

 

It's likely that someone else would've taken him before our pick in round 2, and they truly couldn't come out of that draft without a prospect at the position.

 

As I said (and you seem to agree), the EJ pick was a symptom of the problem (not using premium picks on the premium position); it wasn't the problem itself.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

The drafting of EJ in the first round was a mistake. The problem with feeling compelled to draft a player to fill a desperate need when that player doesn't fill the talent requirement is an act of futility. You are right that there were opportunities to draft good prospects in prior year that weren't taken, but you don't resolve the problem by reaching with your draft selections in subsequent drafts. The end result is that you don't successfully address the position need and you lose an opportunity to address another need.

But drafting bpa doesn't exactly build a roster that works either. You end up with our WR situation now. Or you have a glut of guys with some sitting on the bench

[San-O]

Now it comes out this morning that the Bills/Whaley knew Sammy's foot might be a long term issue before the draft in April, yet still did absolutely nothing to cover their arse.

 

 

Who knew what when?

[JohnC]

Here's where we disagree:

 

It's likely that someone else would've taken him before our pick in round 2, and they truly couldn't come out of that draft without a prospect at the position.[/]

 

As I said (and you seem to agree), the EJ pick was a symptom of the problem (not using premium picks on the premium position); it wasn't the problem itself.

In response to the highlighted area my response is if someone else would have selected him ahead of else because we weren't willing to draft him higher than where he actually ranked then so be it. Let it be someone else's mistake and not ours.

 

In general, as you noted, we are in accord that the EJ syndrome is a symptom reflecting a multi-year failure by the organization to address the premium qb position.

 

My frustration with the organization is that it lacked the resoluteness to address the critical qb issue at the level of its importance. If things didn't pan out in a particular qb quest it should have been continued with even more determination.

 

I am not a Whaley detractor. As I stated in prior posts I don't categorize him as a top tier GM but I do consider him to be a competent to good GM. Without going into the HC issue what hinders this organization the most is its qb play. Until that position is elevated this franchise will continue to be a middling franchise especially with a Belichick team in the division.

 

I'm not giving up on Taylor as a franchise qb. I don't believe that he will be an elite qb but I do believe that he can be a competent starter in this league.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Great post!

 

My take is that Whaley, like Rex, has little to no discipline. A new, huge contract for a guy called "Shady?" The Watkins deal? Who was the rb he gave a 4th to Philly for? How much for Clay?

 

Whaley imo is a decent judge of talent. I happen to think he lacks the maturity and self control to do business with polished GMs.

 

Bill from NYC and anyone else who agrees with the above, Riddle me This, please

 

We all know that in contrast to some other organizations, the Bills are structured differently: Brandon, Ryan, and Whaley all report in parallel directly to the Pegulas.

 

Ryan controls the coaching staff and the game day roster. Brandon controls the operations and business side. Whaley controls the 53 man roster. That has been made public.

 

But who controls contract negotiations? The Bills are a bit reticent in publicizing their org structure, but as far as I can tell, the contract negotiations are Overdorf, and he reports up through Chuck Lamatinna who reports to Brandon right? I know the scouts report to Whaley and apparently so does Monos, as Director of Player Personnel. But does Hanrahan, as director of Pro Personnel, report to Whaley or to Overdorf/Lamattina?

 

If we don't like the contract given to McCoy or to Clay, is it Whaley who is responsible, or is it Overdorf/Lamattina/Brandon? I'm sure Whaley and Ryan have input as to "tell us what value you place on this player and how you rate him relative to his peers on other teams", but I'm fairly sure the contract negotiations are not Whaley's role/responsibility.

 

As far as Whaley lacking the "maturity" and "self control" to do business with other GMs, I'd like to understand your evidence for that. The trades Whaley has engineered, Sheppard for Hughes and Kiko Alonso for McCoy, have arguably worked out in the Bills favor. The draft day trade-ups or trade-downs have seemed like a fair value for the draft day position relative to what other teams have given up - whether we liked the Bills choices or not is a different question than whether the interactions with other teams were fair and reflect maturity and acumen in dealing with other GMs. I thought what we gave up for Cassel and Bryce Brown was reasonable - certainly reflective of the value we would have given up to draft a RB at that position in the draft, and sometimes draft picks just don't work out but again - that is a different question than whether the value was fair and reasonable.

If EJ was not Whaley's guy, he wouldn't have gone all out to get him a top prospect WR in the next year's draft. If EJ wasn't his choice, he could have easily distanced himself from the pick by bringing in another QB the next year when he officially became the GM. But he didn't.

 

EJ is absolutely on Doug Whaley.

 

I think this is a fair take, given all the evidence. I have said before that in going all-in to get who they viewed as the surest-fire WR prospect in the draft, I felt the Bills were trying to do what the Bengals did by giving Dalton, who when drafted was a "project" QB with a "meh" arm and "meh" accuracy, AJ Green. No question but Green has made Dalton a better QB by giving him an always-open target with a wide catch radius. There are also the reports that in interviewing HC candidates, Whaley laid forth that they wanted a commitment to trying to develop EJ Manuel.

 

OTOH, there were also reports that Whaley wanted a commitment to preserving Schwartz's very effective defense, which no one with functioning neurons firing on football acument would have thought Ryan would do, no matter what he said. But if Whaley were outvoted on Ryan, I doubt that was a ditch he wanted to die in. And it also seems clear that in hiring Roman and reportedly lobbying to bring in Tyrod Taylor rather than a 2nd tier FA with more of a pocket-passer pedigree, Rex wanted to move the offense in a different direction as well.

Edited October 2, 2016 by Hapless Bills Fan