Whaley has been a complete failure as a GM

[BringBackOrton]

 

Lol Tarvaris Jackson? Seriously?

 

I'll agree on Fitzpatrick but then we should never have released him. He wasn't the future, but he certainly wasn't worse than Kolb. There is no way they resign him a year after they cut him and are still recouping from the dead money though.

 

But yeah, I am missing the point haha.

You know they're talking about 2013, right?

[Augie]

You could always talk about his poor communication skills. Also, it's been awhile since anyone ranted about his inability to get along with coaching staffs. Whatever you do end up with, I will definitely check it out.

I've never spoken with the man, so the communication angle is out. Maybe you have. Apparently Maronne was the "failure to communicate expert", as evidenced by his failure to accept the pending HC job he was expecting. I have no reason to believe he can't communicate with Rex, he just cant teach him how to coach. I believe Whaley went along with the owners choice when we talk about Rex. So I'm still searching for a legit approach that hasn't been covered to death....

[What a Tuel]

You know they're talking about 2013, right?

 

No they are talking about 2014 if I am not mistaken when we had Tuel, Thad Lewis, and Manuel battling as our starting QB's until they picked up Orton in early September.

 

In 2013 they had planned on Kolb starting, and had drafted EJ Manuel. Kolb slipped on a mat, and the rest is history.

 

Not that Kolb was a particularly good plan, I hated the move. Despite the hate for Fitzpatrick, he was leagues better than our options.

 

They sat on their hands and were satisfied with Thad Lewis and Jeff Tuel behind EJ.... It essentially cost them the season.

Edited October 2, 2016 by What a Tuel

[BringBackOrton]

 

Nix set the agenda to find a "Franchise QB" for the team before he left. That IMO is what led to the selection of EJ as a 1st round pick in the 2013 draft. Whaley and the scouts job was to identify who they believed was the best choice among those prospects in a very bad class.

 

 

And what about the backup QB situation that year?

 

They sat on their hands and were satisfied with Thad Lewis and Jeff Tuel behind EJ.... It essentially cost them the season.

 

 

 

No they are talking about 2014 if I am not mistaken when we had Tuel, Thad Lewis, and Manuel battling as our starting QB's until they picked up Orton in early September.

 

In 2013 they had planned on Kolb starting, and had drafted EJ Manuel. Kolb slipped on a mat, and the rest is history.

 

Not that Kolb was a particularly good plan, I hated the move. Despite the hate for Fitzpatrick, he was leagues better than our options.

 

I think you are. ScottLaw was referencing the year of the 2013 draft. We cut Fitzy for a worse version who was one hit away from retirement, and having such a mediocre QB carousel doomed the season.

Edited October 2, 2016 by jmc12290

[Rico]

I've never spoken with the man, so the communication angle is out. Maybe you have. Apparently Maronne was the "failure to communicate expert", as evidenced by his failure to accept the pending HC job he was expecting. I have no reason to believe he can't communicate with Rex, he just cant teach him how to coach. I believe Whaley went along with the owners choice when we talk about Rex. So I'm still searching for a legit approach that hasn't been covered to death....

I've never met him, but I've heard him speak several times.

[Augie]

I've never met him, but I've heard him speak several times.

Fair enough, I've seen video of him speaking and nothing jumped out at me. Seemed like an ordinary guy in that respect. Tougher to judge who can stock an NFL roster. He's not perfect there, but no one is. An unlucky run of injuries and an under-performing coach make him difficuult to judge, hence the endless and redundant threads. I say he's not the problem. Others can disagree.

[What a Tuel]

I think you are. ScottLaw was referencing the year of the 2013 draft. We cut Fitzy for a worse version who was one hit away from retirement, and having such a mediocre QB carousel doomed the season.

 

Maybe they are but then they are wrong. They weren't content to go into the season with EJ Tuel and Lewis. They planned for Kolb. Things happened, and I provided the 2013 list of free agent qbs. It is barren of anyone worthy of mentioning. Note Kolb was injured on August 3rd, so this list is even smaller by then (Hoyer was signed in May)

 

Matt Moore

Tarvaris Jackson

Jason Campbell

David Garrard

Josh Johnson

Byron Leftwich

Brady Quinn

Vince Young

Matt Leinart

Rex Grossman

David Carr

Derek Anderson

Drew Stanton

Chase Daniel

Brian Hoyer

Charlie Batch

Bruce Gradkowski

Kellen Clemens

Tyler Thigpen

Josh McCown

Sage Rosenfels

Seneca Wallace

Donovan McNabb

A.J. Feeley

Troy Smith

Luke McCown

Chris Redman

John Beck

Jordan Palmer

J.P. Losman

Kevin O'Connell

[BringBackOrton]

 

Maybe they are but then they are wrong. They weren't content to go into the season with EJ Tuel and Lewis. They planned for Kolb. Things happened, and I provided the 2013 list of free agent qbs. It is barren of anyone worthy of mentioning. Note Kolb was injured on August 3rd, so this list is even smaller by then (Hoyer was signed in May)

 

Matt Moore

Tarvaris Jackson

Jason Campbell

David Garrard

Josh Johnson

Byron Leftwich

Brady Quinn

Vince Young

Matt Leinart

Rex Grossman

David Carr

Derek Anderson

Drew Stanton

Chase Daniel

Brian Hoyer

Charlie Batch

Bruce Gradkowski

Kellen Clemens

Tyler Thigpen

Josh McCown

Sage Rosenfels

Seneca Wallace

Donovan McNabb

A.J. Feeley

Troy Smith

Luke McCown

Chris Redman

John Beck

Jordan Palmer

J.P. Losman

Kevin O'Connell

I think the larger point is that the process went like so:

 

We need to cut Fitz. We need to cut TJ. Oh no, we don't have any QB's, we need to draft one. Oh no, we have no veteran QB's, we need to sign the most unreliable one. Oh no, our QB unit stinks due to an injury that was entirely foreseeable.

 

It was textbook poor planning and short term thinking. And it sunk the whole season, and we even felt the lingering effects the year after.

[What a Tuel]

I think the larger point is that the process went like so:

 

We need to cut Fitz. We need to cut TJ. Oh no, we don't have any QB's, we need to draft one. Oh no, we have no veteran QB's, we need to sign the most unreliable one. Oh no, our QB unit stinks due to an injury that was entirely foreseeable.

 

It was textbook poor planning and short term thinking. And it sunk the whole season, and we even felt the lingering effects the year after.

 

Why do you think they cut Fitz and took the dead money hit? Do you think they acquiesced to pressure from fans? Unless there is something I don't know about his bonuses or something, it makes little football sense outside of them looking foolish for giving him the contract.

 

They should have definitely kept him despite our whining, and drafted a QB to sit behind him for at least a year. We can agree that Kolb was definitely a poor plan, but they didn't expect to go into that season with Manuel, Tuel, and Lewis

 

I don't think it was panicking more than desperate struggling to hit on a QB.

[BringBackOrton]

 

Why do you think they cut Fitz and took the dead money hit? Do you think they acquiesced to pressure from fans? Unless there is something I don't know about his bonuses or something, it makes little football sense outside of them looking foolish for giving him the contract.

 

They should have definitely kept him despite our whining, and drafted a QB to sit behind him for at least a year. We can agree that Kolb was definitely a poor plan, but they didn't expect to go into that season with Manuel, Tuel, and Lewis

 

I don't think it was panicking more than desperate struggling to hit on a QB.

If it was, that's a fireable offense. I have no idea what they were thinking. It was a terrible decision.

 

Fitz was unhappy about not being the penciled in starter going forward after 2012 IIRC, but he was under contract and untradeable. And he's a high character guy. He should've been kept to compete.

 

If they signed Kevin Kolb and didn't expect him to get hurt, I have to ask what were they expecting?

 

If you parse the language, then yes I suppose they technically did not plan on having the EJ/Tuel crew only at QB. But that's what ended up happening because of the FOs poor planning. And then they tried to make the same mistake again in 2014 but Marrone put his foot down and screamed at Whaley.

[Rico]

I think the larger point is that the process went like so:

 

We need to cut Fitz. We need to cut TJ. Oh no, we don't have any QB's, we need to draft one. Oh no, we have no veteran QB's, we need to sign the most unreliable one. Oh no, our QB unit stinks due to an injury that was entirely foreseeable.

 

It was textbook poor planning and short term thinking. And it sunk the whole season, and we even felt the lingering effects the year after.

Yep. His handling of the QB position in 2013 AND 2014 were grounds for dismissal all by themselves. Polian would've thrown DW to the curb if he ended up coming here after all.

[Augie]

Yep. His handling of the QB position in 2013 AND 2014 were grounds for dismissal all by themselves. Polian would've thrown DW to the curb if he ended up coming here after all.

So, who would Polian have chosen as QB, not that you have 20/20 hindsight? It's always easy a few years down the road.

[Sisyphean Bills]

I would have kept Whaley because frankly I like Doug Whaley's drafts as a whole.......its not his fault that players get hurt......or get in trouble.....or eat themselves out of the league. His job is to FIND THE TALENT. Which he has done.

 

This is only partly true. Whaley has gone for "the bomb" on a couple of occasions in the draft. Many NFL GMs took Shaq off their draft boards because of his medical e v a l. Whaley and the Bills went for it. Williams wasn't on everyone's draft board because of his issues at FSU. Whaley and the Bills went for it.

 

I'm not even laying this purely on Whaley, as the Bills have a history of doing this. The circus that led up to the EJ Manuel "panic buy" could be blamed on the old clown rather than the guys that did the leg work, I guess. But the system of high-risk picks didn't start there. The Willis McGahee pick. The Aaron Maybin pick. Trading up for the bust McCargo, hoping he'd be as good as Haloti Ngata. Spiller when they had Lynch. The trade for JP Losman because the Aaron Rodgers class was no good.

 

His job is to wed the roster with the coaching staff's philosophies and do it all while managing the cap and contracts. Mario Williams quitting last year was a bad sign in that regard. The free fall of the defense was deeply troubling. EJ Manuel's struggles haven't shown the Bills have improved in QB evaluation.

 

It's not all Doug Whaley's fault, obviously.

 

But I disagree with the summary. Doug Whaley's job as GM is to put together all of the parts of a winning organization. Anybody with a copy of Ourlads can "find" talent.

[San-O]

Yep. His handling of the QB position in 2013 AND 2014 were grounds for dismissal all by themselves. Polian would've thrown DW to the curb if he ended up coming here after all.

 

 

THIS /\ +1

[Augie]

THIS /\ +1

I think 2013 was really on his boss, Nix. And Rex is on the owners. So.... The guy finds good players. He also misses, like everyone else. But I think he beats the averages. If he had Schwartz from 2 years ago, and Roman from last year, he looks like a friggin genius. That's why we all have opinions...

[Rico]

So, who would Polian have chosen as QB, not that you have 20/20 hindsight? It's always easy a few years down the road.

Well, for one, I don't think he would've signed Kevin friggin Kolb in 2013 wtf. But if whatever vet he added got hurt before training camp started, he wouldn't have gone into the season with a raw #1 draft pick and 2 completely unproven scrubs. Anyone with any significant kind of game experience had to be added, and it didn't happen. Pick a name? I'd say anyone who started at least 8-10 games in the league not named JP would've been a far better approach.

 

Even if Polian had blundered on the QB position in 2013, there's no way in hell he would've gone into training camp with the same 3 QBs in 2014. Very fortunate for DW that Orton was available after Marrone forced him to finally make a move.

 

Polian would also not have drafted EJ in the first place. I don't blame Nix or Whaley for making the pick, but the fact that EJ is still on this team is 100% owned by DW. If Polian had indeed drafted EJ, he would've cut his losses and moved on from him a long time ago.

 

Now, all the above is responding to your question of how I think Polian would'be handled the QB position differently. The only reason I brought his name up in the first place was if he came here in 2015 as the czar. I think it's clear that Polian was/is not impressed at all with DW as a GM, and he would've sent DW packing.

[Augie]

Well, for one, I don't think he would've signed Kevin friggin Kolb in 2013 wtf. But if whatever vet he added got hurt before training camp started, he wouldn't have gone into the season with a raw #1 draft pick and 2 completely unproven scrubs. Anyone with any significant kind of game experience had to be added, and it didn't happen. Pick a name? I'd say anyone who started at least 8-10 games in the league not named JP would've been a far better approach.

Even if Polian had blundered on the QB position in 2013, there's no way in hell he would've gone into training camp with the same 3 QBs in 2014. Very fortunate for DW that Orton was available after Marrone forced him to finally make a move.

Polian would also not have drafted EJ in the first place. I don't blame Nix or Whaley for making the pick, but the fact that EJ is still on this team is 100% owned by DW. If Polian had indeed drafted EJ, he would've cut his losses and moved on from him a long time ago.

Now, all the above is responding to your question of how I think Polian would'be handled the QB position differently. The only reason I brought his name up in the first place was if he came here in 2015 as the czar. I think it's clear that Polian was/is not impressed at all with DW as a GM, and he would've sent DW packing.

Again, fair opinions. They thought they had an adequate vet in Kolb to play early on. Bad things happened. EJ was supposed to sit for a while but got forced into play, which may have damaged his career. We'll never know, but I had a son at FSU and saw enough EJ to be skeptical. (I blame Nix and his "franchise QB before I quit" agenda for EJ.)

 

Whaley was "fortunate" that Orton was available, but not wise to recognize and sign him? That seems to show bias, which is fine because we've all been battered over almost 2 decades. Polian is a HOF GM. I would have liked him in some "czar" capacity for a while. He didn't' take the job. Trying to compare Whaley to Polian is like saying almost ANY QB who comes after Brady is garbage.

 

Whaley is an above average GM, with a below average HC who was not his choice.

[Rico]

Again, fair opinions. They thought they had an adequate vet in Kolb to play early on. Bad things happened. EJ was supposed to sit for a while but got forced into play, which may have damaged his career. We'll never know, but I had a son at FSU and saw enough EJ to be skeptical. (I blame Nix and his "franchise QB before I quit" agenda for EJ.)

 

Whaley was "fortunate" that Orton was available, but not wise to recognize and sign him? That seems to show bias, which is fine because we've all been battered over almost 2 decades. Polian is a HOF GM. I would have liked him in some "czar" capacity for a while. He didn't' take the job. Trying to compare Whaley to Polian is like saying almost ANY QB who comes after Brady is garbage.

 

Whaley is an above average GM, with a below average HC who was not his choice.

Yes, I say DW was fortunate that Orton was available. The situation was DW's mess, and I give Marrone credit for forcing the issue. If he hadn't, DW would've happily gone with the same 3 QB's, keeping his golden boy EJ as the undisputed #1 all season long.

[Augie]

Yes, I say DW was fortunate that Orton was available. The situation was DW's mess, and I give Marrone credit for forcing the issue. If he hadn't, DW would've happily gone with the same 3 QB's, keeping his golden boy EJ as the undisputed #1 all season long.

I think EJ was more Nix's parting gift than Whaley's golden boy, but that's why we all have opinions. None of us know what happened behind the scenes, and I hesitate to give HC still in waiting Maronne too much credit for anything.

[Rico]

I think EJ was more Nix's parting gift than Whaley's golden boy, but that's why we all have opinions. None of us know what happened behind the scenes, and I hesitate to give HC still in waiting Maronne too much credit for anything.

Marrone wasn't the HC still in waiting in summer 2014. He had already lived through a very messy QB situation in 2013, and he wasn't about to do it again.