TakeYouToTasker Posted September 18, 2016 Posted September 18, 2016 (edited) Lack of identity. Are they a running offense that throws? A passing offense than runs? Who's the marquee player they rely on? Where's the threat that other teams have to game-plan to stop? When a play blows up, who does everyone know is going to make the play or hold everyone accountable? The fish rots from the head down. Because of our ownership situation, the team was horribly mismanaged for years, leading to a toxic environment which talented players and coaches wanted nothing to do with. Finally the Pegula's took over, but haven't improved things largely because they aren't football people, but they insist on making football decisions; once again leading to toxic outcomes. You're talking about symptoms. Edited September 19, 2016 by TakeYouToTasker
quinnearlysghost88 Posted September 18, 2016 Posted September 18, 2016 What astonishes me is that the bills are sinking and Ryan brothers are at the Clemson game.
TakeYouToTasker Posted September 18, 2016 Posted September 18, 2016 (edited) What astonishes me is that the bills are sinking and Ryan brothers are at the Clemson game.You get what you pay for, and Kim Pegula paid for the cance... Err... Ryan brothers (cancer). Edited September 18, 2016 by TakeYouToTasker
apuszczalowski Posted September 18, 2016 Posted September 18, 2016 What astonishes me is that the bills are sinking and Ryan brothers are at the Clemson game. Maybe they are there on a scouting mission for the draft next year when Whaley is fired and Rex gets to name Rob the new GM? Or they are trying to get ideas on how to improve the offence and defence?
Reed83HOF Posted September 18, 2016 Posted September 18, 2016 Maybe they are there on a scouting mission for the draft next year when Whaley is fired and Rex gets to name Rob the new GM? Or they are trying to get ideas on how to improve the offence and defence? Yeah because we use Sammy Watkins so well...
ganesh Posted September 19, 2016 Posted September 19, 2016 We had a glimpse the year spiller was averaging like 6 a carry and fitz threw 24 tds... it was a small blip but it was there. I should have kept reading What was their 3rd down conversion rate and the # of 3-and-outs. These two have been the bane of the offense in Buffalo (besides the lack of a QB)
ice2145 Posted September 19, 2016 Posted September 19, 2016 Symptom. Root Cause is the entire organizational instability... Lack of a GM with full authority and a vision they are empowered to execute. The better coaches we had are able to build a scheme around the talent, but were never able to execute well in all 3 phases at the same time. Part of that was poor personnel decisions, part of that is the turnover in coaches, part of that is the players we bring in. Someone else said it best in another thread; there is no cohesive vision and we are just playing fantasy football. Collecting talent but don't have a true blueprint for what we are trying to be. If we do it is very poorly communicated, and it is poorly executed as well. I do like Whaley but he either needs full control or has to be dumped for someone who has it (preferably someone with experience in a good organization who can duplicate some processes). We have had some real bozos for HCs, but I do think Chan could have succeeded if he was able to get a Schwartz/Pettine with the right players. I have a feeling they are trying to do this with Rex, but I'm not sure he is the right coach at this time for this. Very good response. I would say it starts from the top with ownership and trickles down. I think it is vital that all the components of a football organization are in sync and share the same vision. Look at the 90's with a active owner, great GM, great innovation offensive coordinator, a motivating coach, and of course great players. They were in sync and made the excellent choices . Remember, Jimbo was in Houston and I believe reluctant to play for the Bills. Fast forward to the last 15 years and who can agree with the all the moving parts working together. Heck, we just fired our OC after two games. Top organizations just don't that. It is embarrassing. Soon, we will have another head coach with more turnover, more changes, and new promises. When will the merry go round end because my head is spinning and I'm about to vomit. God is it tough to be a Bills fan...GO BILLS
All_Pro_Bills Posted September 19, 2016 Posted September 19, 2016 Very good response. I would say it starts from the top with ownership and trickles down. I think it is vital that all the components of a football organization are in sync and share the same vision. Look at the 90's with a active owner, great GM, great innovation offensive coordinator, a motivating coach, and of course great players. They were in sync and made the excellent choices . Remember, Jimbo was in Houston and I believe reluctant to play for the Bills. Fast forward to the last 15 years and who can agree with the all the moving parts working together. Heck, we just fired our OC after two games. Top organizations just don't that. It is embarrassing. Soon, we will have another head coach with more turnover, more changes, and new promises. When will the merry go round end because my head is spinning and I'm about to vomit. God is it tough to be a Bills fan...GO BILLS All True. The Bills as an organization simply have no workable management system in place. Think of teams like the Steelers and recently the hated Patriots. They have an established way of doing things and players come into the system and adapt to it. If they won't they aren't brought in and if they can't they're let go. Generally, no head cases, drug users, abusers, or screw-ups allowed. The Bills identity is a losing culture. Pegula needs to change this culture and unfortunately, in my opinion, bringing in Ryan as HC last year was a step in the wrong direction. I think TP realizes this and perhaps the move to let Ryan call all the shots is either a long-shot to make it work or give him enough rope to hang himself to cut losses and move on next off-season. Until they establish this identity and system they will forever wander in the wilderness of losing and dysfunction.
fridge Posted September 19, 2016 Posted September 19, 2016 Sure Marrone had his faults but as time goes on it will come to be realized he wasn't half bad coach. He had the team ready and they played hard, he was just void of talent to be overly successful. But again fans and media criticized his every move or non move because his team wasn't 16-0 and scoring 50 points a game and pitching shutouts and IMO it had a hand in driving him out of town. Welcome to Bills country. I don't think this is a very good take and I hope no one tries to add a revisionist spin on Marrone's tenure. He was void of talent? Really because while he was focused on offense, he had two of the best defenses we've had in recent memory. He had the team ready? Really because all they needed to do was beat the 3-13 Raiders with a rookie QB to have a shot at the playoffs and they were awful. He singlehandedly ruined our 2-2 1st round QB's chance of developing so that he could selfishly play Kyle Orton to a game above .500.
BringBackOrton Posted September 19, 2016 Posted September 19, 2016 I don't think this is a very good take and I hope no one tries to add a revisionist spin on Marrone's tenure. He was void of talent? Really because while he was focused on offense, he had two of the best defenses we've had in recent memory. He had the team ready? Really because all they needed to do was beat the 3-13 Raiders with a rookie QB to have a shot at the playoffs and they were awful. He singlehandedly ruined our 2-2 1st round QB's chance of developing so that he could selfishly play Kyle Orton to a game above .500. Malarkey. The offensive talent was way worse than it is now. Defensive talent was about the same, he just hired better coaches. If Kyle Orton had started week 1 of 2014, we almost certainly make the postseason that year. I don't see how playing the best QB on the roster to win the most games is a selfish move. Especially when the whole team was basically on board.
PatsFanNH Posted September 19, 2016 Posted September 19, 2016 Just an outside observation here... What always got me about Buffalo since 2000 is a lack of a consistent vision of what the team wants to be... In other words 1 year you go out and sign a top WR and instead of building on that threw the draft (QB,RB. Oline) you ignore it draft for D then the ownership et al are shocked when the WR fails.. (That was an example of what I meant not what you all did). Another point being if you fail in year 1 with the idea it is s utters and you try something new in year 2... Most things suck the first year but some continuity and coaching year 2 can be a huge difference.. Just my opinion.. And yes I can be wrong, my wife tells me so daily lol..
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted September 19, 2016 Author Posted September 19, 2016 Just an outside observation here... What always got me about Buffalo since 2000 is a lack of a consistent vision of what the team wants to be... In other words 1 year you go out and sign a top WR and instead of building on that threw the draft (QB,RB. Oline) you ignore it draft for D then the ownership et al are shocked when the WR fails.. (That was an example of what I meant not what you all did). Another point being if you fail in year 1 with the idea it is s utters and you try something new in year 2... Most things suck the first year but some continuity and coaching year 2 can be a huge difference.. Just my opinion.. And yes I can be wrong, my wife tells me so daily lol.. I think that's a very fair assessment. The Bills rarely draft to meet needs, and instead draft BPA. This, in my mind, is the BIGGEST mistake a team can make.
\GoBillsInDallas/ Posted September 19, 2016 Posted September 19, 2016 Since 2000, they have been utterly incapable of fielding ANYTHING that approaches an excellent or even merely good offense. In this day and age how is that possible? The easiest answer is a rhetorical question: Since 2000, of all of the owners, general managers and head coaches that we have had, would you describe anyone of them as being a "leader" or having "leadership qualities"?
Reed83HOF Posted September 19, 2016 Posted September 19, 2016 Just an outside observation here... What always got me about Buffalo since 2000 is a lack of a consistent vision of what the team wants to be... In other words 1 year you go out and sign a top WR and instead of building on that threw the draft (QB,RB. Oline) you ignore it draft for D then the ownership et al are shocked when the WR fails.. (That was an example of what I meant not what you all did). Another point being if you fail in year 1 with the idea it is s utters and you try something new in year 2... Most things suck the first year but some continuity and coaching year 2 can be a huge difference.. Just my opinion.. And yes I can be wrong, my wife tells me so daily lol.. Someone else said it best in another thread - we draft like it is fantasy football. We have entirely lost the ability to create a vision on what we want to be and where we want to go. Not to go back to our old glory days, but Polian and Levy built that. Once we canned BP, the vision was to sustain what we had and then Butler decided he was out and took everyone with him. From there we have been a rudderless ship lost in the ocean and drifting about in whatever direction the waves push us. This is what us as fans miss when the media and former players hammer this team. This is a perfect example: Greg Gabriel @greggabe The Bills are one of the most mismanaged, poorly coached teams in the NFL. I feel bad for the Pegula's This the precise reason you need to clean house with the people from the past who are still there. Some might be able to be saved, but some are now a product of a very bad process. The prudent and most painful move is to bring in people from other successful organizations who have this blueprint and help you replicate it here. This is painful because in order to move forward, you have to stop running the business the way you have in the past. Unfortunately the behavior patterns and the way everyone works is based on this flawed organization; sometimes you just have to move on from some of them. As you rebuild the football part of the organization, this is where you run into creating your vision as to who you want to be and crafting a plan on how to get there. Not many GMs of Exec VPs of Football Operations will want to keep the coach they inherit. You will lose some good people in the process, but you will also bring in other good people. It is a fact of organizational life and its okay. It will set us back a year maybe 2, but in the long run you are on the right path. Staying the course with where we are now will just yield more of the same for a much longer period of time. I actually give a thumbs up to Haslam (terrible owner) to shake the entire organization up to try something different; if he didn't I'm not sure anyone would take that job. Pegs had a chance when Marrone walked to do this and they didn't; as a fan I hope they are able to see this and do this when Rex is finally done. The sad thing is, is that I like Rex, with a better football organization above him, he might have been good for us...
Nihilarian Posted September 19, 2016 Posted September 19, 2016 The last QB with a winning record that was actually halfway decent since the Drew Bledsoe (9-7) days was Kyle Orton (7-5) and he ran for the bus like he had a grizzly on his arse. Of course, he was playing behind the very worst O-line in the league for most of that 2014 season with no run game help either. 2000 Rob Johnson 4-7, Doug Flutie 4-1 2001 Alex Van pelt 2-6, Rob Johnson 1-7 2002 Drew Bledsoe 8-8 2003 Drew Bledsoe 6-10 2004 Drew Bledsoe 9-7--now because the OC couldn't get Bledsoe to hurry his getting the ball out he was no longer wanted in Buffalo 2005 Kelly Holcomb 4-4, JP Losman 1-7 2006 JP Losman 7-9 2007 Trent Edwards 5-4, JP Losman 2-5 2008 Trent Edwards 7-7, JP Losman 0-2 this was the year that Trent's career was demolished by a concussion in week 5 after a 4-0 start to the season. This same year Brady was on IR after week one. 2009 Ryan Fitzpatrick 4-4, Trent Edwards 2-5, Brian Brohm 0-1 2010 Ryan Fitzpatrick 4-9, Trent Edwards 0-2, Brian Brohm 0-1 2011 Ryan Fitzpatrick 6-10 started this year 5-2 until Fitz was hammered in Washington and went on to play with broken ribs because Gailey was too lame to bench him to let him heal. center Eric Wood went on IR and the line was a joke 2012 Ryan Fitzpatrick 6-10 The Bills defense with George Edwards 2010-2011 was the worst and was just as bad with Wannstedt. The Bills were easy to beat with Gailey as HC and since the team felt they overpaid Fitz... 2013 EJ Manual 4-6, Thaddeus Lewis 2-3, Jeff Tuel 0-1 all basically rookies with no QB coach and some scrubs on the O-line. 2014 Kyle Orton 7-5, EJ Manuel 2-2. The Bills went pass happy this year 579 passing vs 402 rushing with the worst offensive line in the league. Two first round picks for a WR this OC would use as a decoy for a lot of the year. 2015 Tyrod Taylor 7-6, EJ Manuel 0-2. The Bills field the best run game in the league while allowing a young QB to develop Fast forward to now to find the OC that had the Bills the best run game in the league and saw them field a top 10 O-line in the league in 2015 suddenly fired. Last year's offense was also #12 in points and #13 in yards. From what I can gather the teams GM went to the owners with the complaint that Sammy wasn't getting the ball enough and the QB wasn't throwing downfield enough. The run game had also stopped working and the 2 min drill was non-existent. The QB wasn't reading the defense and making adjustments. I can only surmise that the 2nd year starting QB's development time is over and the new OC will call for more downfield passing to Sammy and Clay. This will either make Tyrod a star or ruin him and we will see in a few days.
Paup 1995MVP Posted September 19, 2016 Posted September 19, 2016 It's very, VERY, simple. Bad QBs and bad coaches. Nothing else really matters. That is SO TRUE! I watched the Falcons-Raider game yesterday, and Matt Ryan was awesome. He has had his problems w red zone interceptions the past few years, and had a bad one yesterday. However, he was so in sync w his receivers, it was a beautiful thing to watch. And not just Julio Jones who is something special, but also their TE Jacob Tamme and his other secondary receivers. On just about every play he knew where every receiver would be on the play and always threw to the right one. The difference between him and TT was nite and day. You watch a good to sometimes very good QB, and compare to where Tyrod is and it is not even close. (I have never understood what everyone including the Bills see in TT. He can not read defenses, and has no feel for running an offense. And his accuracy in throwing the football except for the deep pass is terrible. He is an excellent athlete, but not a QB. Cardale Jones has much more upside than TT will ever have.) And the second point I got from watching Atl-Oak was how well prepared the Falcons were coming into Oakland. They had just lost their opener at home to TB, and their D played lousy. Going into Oakland against a Raider team coming off the big victory at NO at the end, you knew Oakland would be pumped. But Dan Quinn the coach of the Falcons had them so mentally ready, prepared and full of confidence from the opening kickoff, it was tremendous. The D did not play great, because they have a marginal front 7. But they played hard and stayed composed. And their O was terrific. Everyone was in sync. QB's O line, RB's TE, WR's. They all new what to do on every play. That is because the coaches had them prepared, and their QB leads the offense and knows what is expected of an NFL QB. So in conclusion, coaching and a QB that has game poise and grit is what wins in the NFL. The Bills have not had either in a long time. When Cardale is given the reigns that will be a start. And when we get a real coach who understands the NFL game, and is not worried about tailgating at Clemson when his job is on the line, we will be on our way to better things. Until then, this raging tire fire that has become the Buffalo Bills may actually turn into a nuclear waste dump. God bless us all of us who continue to stick w this team. Because it sure aint easy.
Nihilarian Posted September 19, 2016 Posted September 19, 2016 (edited) Greg Gabriel @greggabe The Bills are one of the most mismanaged, poorly coached teams in the NFL. I feel bad for the Pegula's I don't feel sorry for these billionaires who thought themselves smart enough to know which HC to hire on their own! And now either asked for or they allowed the firing of about the best OC the team has had in over a decade! Unless of course, that Anthony Lynn is on their short list to replace the Ryan. Edited September 19, 2016 by Nihilarian
NorthBuffaloKid Posted September 19, 2016 Posted September 19, 2016 QB and coaches are the most vital part of the franchise but it's a trickle down effect. The GM selects the QB and coach and the owner selects the GM. I can understand it being difficult to find a franchise QB, but with the carousel of coaches that have come and gone in the past two decades, you'd think the Bills would've somehow lucked into one good head coach by now. We did. His name was Schwartz.
Wayne Arnold Posted September 19, 2016 Posted September 19, 2016 I hated getting rid of Chan. I think he was the one coach we had who finally learned how to play against the Patriots so you could beat them. And right after he got to the point where I felt like "yes..now I think this guy gets it" he got shitcanned. I really wish we could have / would have kept him longer and found a way to make that defense at least average. Gailey is an excellent football mind but doesn't quite have what it takes to be a successful head coach. There's something missing there. Not sure he commands respect from all of the players. Too nice, maybe? For example, his post-game locker room speeches always felt awkward.
Fadingpain Posted September 19, 2016 Posted September 19, 2016 All True. The Bills as an organization simply have no workable management system in place. Think of teams like the Steelers and recently the hated Patriots. They have an established way of doing things and players come into the system and adapt to it. If they won't they aren't brought in and if they can't they're let go. Generally, no head cases, drug users, abusers, or screw-ups allowed. The Bills identity is a losing culture. Pegula needs to change this culture and unfortunately, in my opinion, bringing in Ryan as HC last year was a step in the wrong direction. I think TP realizes this and perhaps the move to let Ryan call all the shots is either a long-shot to make it work or give him enough rope to hang himself to cut losses and move on next off-season. Until they establish this identity and system they will forever wander in the wilderness of losing and dysfunction. This is absolutely correct and why we would never have turned the corner prior to the ownership change. But the change has occurred and in that way, it is unfair to compare the current situation to what was happening 10 years ago. The key now is for Pegula to make a clean break from the past and build an organizational foundation that will work long term. It has to be forward looking and if it involves a nostalgic flashback to 1985, we're screwed.
Recommended Posts