DrDawkinstein Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 Talent? Talented players win football games. We have been blaming the coaching staffs for 16 yeears. let's face it our players are mediocre at best we just think they are talented cause of our love of the tram. If you think coaching hasnt been a major issue with this franchise, you havent been paying attention for the past 50 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jms62 Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 If you think coaching hasnt been a major issue with this franchise, you havent been paying attention for the past 50 years. And if you think we have had talented teams then you simply have no idea whatsoever what talent actual is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted September 17, 2016 Author Share Posted September 17, 2016 I think some of you are missing my point. 39 players on the Broncos roster who for whom the Broncos were the first NFL team, whether through the draft or undrafted free agents. They've been fantastic at college player evaluation. I will concede that Elway has been in the GM role (even though he didn't officially have that title) a couple years longer, so maybe I should've titled it "Broncos Management vs. Bills Management." And the main point is how the Broncos have been able to find the hidden talent that has escaped Whaley -- the CJ Andersons and Chris Harrises. Whaley (and Nix before and overlapping with him) has been a far greater problem than Gailey-Marrone-Rex (and Roman), so they've chopped the wrong heads here ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 I think some of you are missing my point. 39 players on the Broncos roster who for whom the Broncos were the first NFL team, whether through the draft or undrafted free agents. They've been fantastic at college player evaluation. I will concede that Elway has been in the GM role (even though he didn't officially have that title) a couple years longer, so maybe I should've titled it "Broncos Management vs. Bills Management." And the main point is how the Broncos have been able to find the hidden talent that has escaped Whaley -- the CJ Andersons and Chris Harrises. Whaley (and Nix before and overlapping with him) has been a far greater problem than Gailey-Marrone-Rex (and Roman), so they've chopped the wrong heads here ... If your argument is "Broncos Management is better than Bills Management", I dont think you'll get too many people that disagree. That is an obvious fact over the franchises' histories. Which leads them to be able to hire better coaches like Fox and Kubiak, and get guys like Peyton Manning to come in. However, that has been changing as evidenced by the fact that Mike Shanahan wouldn't even take our call for an interview before we hired Gailey, but by the time we fired Gailey, he was beginning to meet. If your argument is "Elway is better than Whaley", I dont think youve made any sort of compelling case. If your argument is "Whaley is the problem, not the Coaches", I wholeheartedly disagree. You telling me Jerry Jones is the GM genius that just knew Dak Prescott could be a day 1 starter? Or did he go to a much more stable staff and system with guys who know how to ease him along? Or that Donahoe knew Wentz could be a day 1 slinger? Or is Pederson better at developing young QBs having been a QB that played through a similar situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted September 17, 2016 Author Share Posted September 17, 2016 If your argument is "Broncos Management is better than Bills Management", I dont think you'll get too many people that disagree. That is an obvious fact over the franchises' histories. Which leads them to be able to hire better coaches like Fox and Kubiak, and get guys like Peyton Manning to come in. However, that has been changing as evidenced by the fact that Mike Shanahan wouldn't even take our call for an interview before we hired Gailey, but by the time we fired Gailey, he was beginning to meet. If your argument is "Elway is better than Whaley", I dont think youve made any sort of compelling case. If your argument is "Whaley is the problem, not the Coaches", I wholeheartedly disagree. You telling me Jerry Jones is the GM genius that just knew Dak Prescott could be a day 1 starter? Or did he go to a much more stable staff and system with guys who know how to ease him along? Or that Donahoe knew Wentz could be a day 1 slinger? Or is Pederson better at developing young QBs having been a QB that played through a similar situation? Well, they're both "the problem" but I'd attribute something like 75% to Whaley and management rather than the coaching staff. There's this myth out there that the Bills have really good player personnel but it's being held back by the coaching staff. I just don't see that. Who are the "keepers" on offense and defense (and let's set aside salary for the moment): Offense: Glenn, Watkins (as other posters have noted). That's it. McCoy is fine if you don't take into account his salary. Clay too. But they're hardly guys you'd build around. Defense: Dareus, Hughes. Maybe Darby and Gilmore, but that's really tough to say after yesterday's debacle. That's just not that impressive. We lose because, shockingly, our players aren't that good ... I think that's tough for a lot of people to admit. It's easier to say this scheme is wrong or that coach sucks, but the inconvenient truth is we just ain't that good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 Well, they're both "the problem" but I'd attribute something like 75% to Whaley and management rather than the coaching staff. There's this myth out there that the Bills have really good player personnel but it's being held back by the coaching staff. I just don't see that. Who are the "keepers" on offense and defense (and let's set aside salary for the moment): Offense: Glenn, Watkins (as other posters have noted). That's it. McCoy is fine if you don't take into account his salary. Clay too. But they're hardly guys you'd build around. Defense: Dareus, Hughes. Maybe Darby and Gilmore, but that's really tough to say after yesterday's debacle. That's just not that impressive. We lose because, shockingly, our players aren't that good ... I think that's tough for a lot of people to admit. It's easier to say this scheme is wrong or that coach sucks, but the inconvenient truth is we just ain't that good. Take a few minutes to look at the rosters of winning teams, top to bottom, and tell me they are so much better than ours. Just isnt true dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted September 17, 2016 Author Share Posted September 17, 2016 Take a few minutes to look at the rosters of winning teams, top to bottom, and tell me they are so much better than ours. Just isnt true dude. This is ... kind of stunning. You think that this roster is roughly on par with: -NE -CIN -DEN -KC -GB -SEA -PIT ??? So the reason we're not in the playoffs every year is that both the Marrone regime and now the Rex regime are inept, and it has little to do with player personnel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeGOATski Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 This is ... kind of stunning. You think that this roster is roughly on par with: -NE -CIN -DEN -KC -GB -SEA -PIT ??? So the reason we're not in the playoffs every year is that both the Marrone regime and now the Rex regime are inept, and it has little to do with player personnel? The thing most of those teams have is a franchise QB. That's the big difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 (edited) This is ... kind of stunning. You think that this roster is roughly on par with: -NE -CIN -DEN -KC -GB -SEA -PIT ??? So the reason we're not in the playoffs every year is that both the Marrone regime and now the Rex regime are inept, and it has little to do with player personnel? The main theme through all of those teams: Established Coaches and/or QBs. Belichick, Reid, McCarthy, Carrol, and Kubiak are light years ahead of anything we've had this millennium and are all QB-centered coaches. A huge reason we still havent been in the playoffs lately is Belichick and Brady in our division. And as we're seeing, that might be mostly Belichick. Edited September 17, 2016 by DrDareustein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted September 17, 2016 Author Share Posted September 17, 2016 The thing most of those teams have is a franchise QB. That's the big difference. Well, except for KC (and now DEN) true, if you count Andy Dalton. But that's kind of like the old, "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln greatly enjoyed the play" line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 (edited) Well, except for KC (and now DEN) true, if you count Andy Dalton. But that's kind of like the old, "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln greatly enjoyed the play" line. And yet they are still winning. Why? Coaching. Patriots not missing a beat? Belichick. Edited September 17, 2016 by DrDareustein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted September 17, 2016 Author Share Posted September 17, 2016 The main theme through all of those teams: Established Coaches and/or QBs. Belichick, Reid, McCarthy, Carrol, and Kubiak are light years ahead of anything we've had this millennium and are all QB-centered coaches. A huge reason we still havent been in the playoffs lately is Belichick and Brady in our division. And as we're seeing, that might be mostly Belichick. Agreed. But don't you think Bills management and fans get a bit carried away with some of our players? For example: I truly think Charles Clay would be the # 3 TE on the Pats this year. People so wanted Gilmore and Darby to be "shutdown corners" that they've kind of ignored the evidence -- they're good, certainly not elite. Same with Jerry Hughes -- a very good edge rusher, not anywhere close to the massive disrupter of any passing game that a Von Miller or JJ Watt is. Sammy Watkins is a great receiver! No. He emerged in the second half last year as an excellent receiver, but his is not Antonio Brown or Julio Jones or Larry Fitzgerald. This is a recurring theme in Billsland ... Finally, I guess I should explain why this bothers me so much -- the overestimation of our own talent. It's because it makes management make bad decisions! Decisions predicated on the mistaken assumption that we just have to plug a couple holes each year and we'll be right there with the big boys They've been doing that for 16 years. It isn't working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 (edited) Agreed. But don't you think Bills management and fans get a bit carried away with some of our players? For example: I truly think Charles Clay would be the # 3 TE on the Pats this year. People so wanted Gilmore and Darby to be "shutdown corners" that they've kind of ignored the evidence -- they're good, certainly not elite. Same with Jerry Hughes -- a very good edge rusher, not anywhere close to the massive disrupter of any passing game that a Von Miller or JJ Watt is. Sammy Watkins is a great receiver! No. He emerged in the second half last year as an excellent receiver, but his is not Antonio Brown or Julio Jones or Larry Fitzgerald. This is a recurring theme in Billsland ... Sorry man, disagree with almost everything you say here, or disagree with the comparisons. Jerry Hughes is/has been Justin Houston, no one would argue he is JJ Watt. Clay is tough to judge given the performance of our OC and QB. Watkins, same thing (although the injuries are getting annoying, but not sure any GM could predict that). But now you're nit-picking individual players and comparing them to the absolute best at their position. No team has GREAT players at every position. But we do have plenty of strong players. As many as most other teams. Edited September 17, 2016 by DrDareustein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jms62 Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 Agreed. But don't you think Bills management and fans get a bit carried away with some of our players? For example: I truly think Charles Clay would be the # 3 TE on the Pats this year. People so wanted Gilmore and Darby to be "shutdown corners" that they've kind of ignored the evidence -- they're good, certainly not elite. Same with Jerry Hughes -- a very good edge rusher, not anywhere close to the massive disrupter of any passing game that a Von Miller or JJ Watt is. Sammy Watkins is a great receiver! No. He emerged in the second half last year as an excellent receiver, but his is not Antonio Brown or Julio Jones or Larry Fitzgerald. This is a recurring theme in Billsland ...Finally, I guess I should explain why this bothers me so much -- the overestimation of our own talent. It's because it makes management make bad decisions! Decisions predicated on the mistaken assumption that we just have to plug a couple holes each year and we'll be right there with the big boys They've been doing that for 16 years. It isn't working. This is Spot on and is my vote for post of the year. The issue here will not be fixed by simply replacing the coach. We have mediocre at best talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QCity Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 And if you think we have had talented teams then you simply have no idea whatsoever what talent actual is. Agreed. But don't you think Bills management and fans get a bit carried away with some of our players? For example: I truly think Charles Clay would be the # 3 TE on the Pats this year. People so wanted Gilmore and Darby to be "shutdown corners" that they've kind of ignored the evidence -- they're good, certainly not elite. Same with Jerry Hughes -- a very good edge rusher, not anywhere close to the massive disrupter of any passing game that a Von Miller or JJ Watt is. Sammy Watkins is a great receiver! No. He emerged in the second half last year as an excellent receiver, but his is not Antonio Brown or Julio Jones or Larry Fitzgerald. This is a recurring theme in Billsland ... Yes and Yes. The talent level of this team is very overrated by our fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted September 17, 2016 Author Share Posted September 17, 2016 Sorry man, disagree with almost everything you say here, or disagree with the comparisons. Jerry Hughes is/has been Justin Houston, no one would argue he is JJ Watt. Clay is tough to judge given the performance of our OC and QB. Watkins, same thing (although the injuries are getting annoying, but not sure any GM could predict that). But now you're nit-picking individual players and comparing them to the absolute best at their position. No team has GREAT players at every position. But we do have plenty of strong players. As many as most other teams. I live in Colorado, so my apologies for bringing up the AFC West all the time, but other than the AFC East its the division I see every week. And despite the Bills having better QB play than the Broncos last year, the teams weren't even close in quality. And that's true even if you somehow graft the Bills 2014 defense onto the Bills 2015 offense. And no doubt swapping coaches would close the chasm a bit, but still ... one team is just plain more talented than the other, and that's the primary reason they win more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QCity Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 Oh, and comparing John Elway the GM to Doug Whaley is like comparing John Elway the QB to EJ Manuel. Those names shouldn't be used in the same sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeGOATski Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 Sorry man, disagree with almost everything you say here, or disagree with the comparisons. Jerry Hughes is/has been Justin Houston, no one would argue he is JJ Watt. Clay is tough to judge given the performance of our OC and QB. Watkins, same thing (although the injuries are getting annoying, but not sure any GM could predict that). But now you're nit-picking individual players and comparing them to the absolute best at their position. No team has GREAT players at every position. But we do have plenty of strong players. As many as most other teams. Exactly. There's so much parity in the league. Great teams are separated by coaching and QB play. The Bills have acquired great talent the past few years, but still fall short in those two areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted September 17, 2016 Author Share Posted September 17, 2016 Oh, and comparing John Elway the GM to Doug Whaley is like comparing John Elway the QB to EJ Manuel. Those names shouldn't be used in the same sentence. You've got a point. But since I did it anyway, let me point out another key difference: Elway is not afraid to part ways with successful players when they get too expensive. Julius Thomas made some huge plays at TE with Peyton. But they didn't even consider offering him a big money deal when he hit free agency. Dominique Rogers-Cromartie had a great season at CB, but they let him walk and made a better deal for Talib. Brock Osweiler? Elway didn't see enough there to justify $16 million/year, so off he went even though they literally had no Plan B (actually I think they'll regret that one, but it showed guts). That's not what I see with the Bills. McCoy was a fine one year rental, but why extend him? Huge interior defensive lineman don't age well - off went Pot Roast Knighton from Denver (and into Haynesworth oblivion) while we gave Dareus a huge deal. Re-upping popular/successful players is always a hit with the fans, but as often as not it's a really bad idea, but it's an idea a weak GM always goes to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 Zach Brown played pretty well too. Made a lot of good stops against the run. 14 tackles and 1 qb pressure. Along with Preston Brown's 16 tackles. They also had a forced fumble. Our middle LBs look solid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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