Doug Whaley- Failure to Field a Competitive Roster

[Reed83HOF]

 

I think Doug Whaley is the best Gm the Bills have had since John Butler.

 

That's not really saying much...One might argue Donahoe had better drafts than Butler.

[Hardcore Bills Fan]

 

That's not really saying much...One might argue Donahoe had better drafts than Butler.

 

well Donahoe did the same thing as DW with the drafts by trading picks. Butlers failing wasnt his fault he had cap issues.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

And how exactly do you know this? I'm not saying it's not true, personally I do believe there is at least some truth to this. but all it is rumored and passed on and a second person then also writes the same thing, likely based on the first rumor and all of a sudden it becomes fact as it's been reported by multiple outlets.

 

 

It's true that Whaley had Hue Jackson as his #1 after the first round of interviews, and possibly after as well

It's also true, however, that Whaley got his run at Rex during the 2nd interview, and was on board with the hiring.

[PolishDave]

 

That's not really saying much...One might argue Donahoe had better drafts than Butler.

 

Well, during the Butler years, the Bills were in the playoffs more times than not or maybe it was only 50/50. So yeah, I guess he was a bad talent evaluator. After all we should be in the playoffs every year.

[H2o]

 

Really? My proprietary analytical projections that I do every year for fun has them around a 5-11 team and after the draft boosted their win record to 5.5 wins.

 

Doug Whaley is a complete failure as a GM. Ruined the roster and ruined the salary cap at the same time.

Ruined the roster? Really? Explain to me the plethora of "great" players we have let go on his watch. Kelvin Sheppard? Jairus Byrd? CJ Spiller? Andy Levitre? He's actually built a pretty talented roster outside of our WR position, but you don't hit on them all. The only guy I wish we still had, especially right now, is Kamar Aiken.

[Reed83HOF]

 

well Donahoe did the same thing as DW with the drafts by trading picks. Butlers failing wasnt his fault he had cap issues.

 

There is nothing wrong with trading picks, you do need to be very smart about it though. Butler was the GM, cap issues belong to him as does building the team. The Bills big issue was firing Polian. As much as we all dislike TD and his coaching selections, he did somewhat put us back together....but this is not the point of this thread....

 

Well, during the Butler years, the Bills were in the playoffs more times than not or maybe it was only 50/50. So yeah, I guess he was a bad talent evaluator. After all we should be in the playoffs every year.

The reason we were in the playoffs those years were due to Polian and the core he assembled as GM...

[PolishDave]

 

There is nothing wrong with trading picks, you do need to be very smart about it though. Butler was the GM, cap issues belong to him as does building the team. The Bills big issue was firing Polian. As much as we all dislike TD and his coaching selections, he did somewhat put us back together....but this is not the point of this thread....

The reason we were in the playoffs those years were due to Polian and the core he assembled as GM...

Well you could make that argument because he started in 1993, but the last two playoff appearances - Doug Flutie was QB. And there were a whole bunch of other players on the team that never played on those Superbowl teams.

[thebandit27]

And how exactly do you know this? I'm not saying it's not true, personally I do believe there is at least some truth to this. but all it is rumored and passed on and a second person then also writes the same thing, likely based on the first rumor and all of a sudden it becomes fact as it's been reported by multiple outlets.

 

 

Well, Pegula himself said the item about Whaley getting his crack at Rex, and that after it "they all" felt Rex was the guy. I don't have the link, but it's in the Russ super-thread.

 

As to the item about Hue Jackson, there are a few people on this board that have excellent track records with info from inside 1 Bills Drive...more than one has intimated that tidbit.

[BillsVet]

The post-mortem on Whaley's tenure will be his inability to identify a QB prospect and/or starter. Nix did this franchise no favors eschewing the QB position in 2011-12 when Fitzpatrick was the designated starter.

 

Having said that, the roster seems to be built like a fantasy team. Building individual positions rather than a scheme designed to win the division.

 

It's also clear Whaley didn't have a decision to hire a HC. Marrone was a Brandon choice and Ryan the decision from T/K Pegs.

 

The dysfunction in this franchise isn't all on Whaley, but his off-season was a blundering mess. That humans playing football comment is something I'd never expect a NFL GM would make.

[ndirish1978]

Whaley set this team up as a 4-3 defense. Rex screwed us by changing to a 3-4. If we were pressuring qbs our cbs wouldn't be this exposed

[purple haze]

Last night was the nail in the coffin for Doug Whaley IMHO. He has failed to man a roster that is competitive within our division. The most blatant example is our relatively short corners trying to defend against the Jets towering receivers. Same issue with the Patriots that feature a fast tall tight end. Same with the Dolphins.

An 8" height advantage for a receiver or TE is simply ridiculous. Most QBs in the league could complete passes to the Jets receivers vs. the Bills corners.

Coaching did all they could to defense against the Jets offense - employing (7) DBs at one point.

The accountability for the Bills performance lies with the GM.

I Disagree. The DB's had a bad game. Last season Darby and Gilmore played very well. They played well in Week 1. They played well against the Jets in the Thursday night game last season in the Meadowlands. Bills were 8-8 last year, 9-7 the year before that. Those are competitive rosters. Non-competitive rosters are picking in the top 5 of the draft. EVERY team in the league has trouble covering Gronkowski. That's why he's a beast. His size speed combination is unheard of.

 

The accountability for the Bills performance is on the coaches and, moreso, on the players.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

I think both sides are defensible.

 

You can say Whaley needs to go because he drafted an injured player in the 1st round in Lawson, the foolish Ragland trade, some failures at quarterback, the bad McCoy contract in a scheme that doesn't suit him, and of course the final W/L record.

 

You can say Whaley needs to stay because he built a stacked roster that carried Marrone to 9-7, then Rex' coaching staff was unable to utilize the talent Whaley provided (best player on offense Watkins and best player on defense Dareus both severely miscast along with a host of others). This team has been poorly coached and still has been 'right there' at 9-7 and 8-8 the last two years.

 

I've seen Yolo talk about how there are just a few teams who draft better than the field and a few who draft worse than the field and everybody else hits at about the same rate. I think also the respective talent levels are pretty close around the league with coaching that pulls the most out of that talent, and quarterback play often making the difference.

 

I am not going to be upset either way. He's been able to acquire talented players and has been somewhat held back by coaching, but at the same time, he's been part of a losing effort and I won't begrudge the Pegulas one bit if they want to hit the F5 key on the whole operation.

 

What this team really needs is a good front office structure, a good coaching staff, accountability and a quarterback.

Edited September 17, 2016 by 2018 Our Year For Sure

[PolishDave]

I am not going to be upset either way. He's been able to acquire talented players and has been somewhat held back by coaching, but at the same time, he's been part of a losing effort and I won't begrudge the Pegulas one bit if they want to hit the F5 key on the whole operation. What this team really needs is a good front office structure, a good coaching staff, accountability and a quarterback. Whaley or no, if they have that, they'll win games.

 

And that kind of turnstile mentality is what leads to decades of mediocrity and constant non-stop rebuilding after mediocre 8-8 or 7-9 or 9-7 seasons. Isn't anyone else here entirely sick of that?

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

 

And that kind of turnstile mentality is what leads to decades of mediocrity and constant non-stop rebuilding after mediocre 8-8 or 7-9 or 9-7 seasons. Isn't anyone else here entirely sick of that?

Are you sure the results are even going to be mediocre this year? I blame the coaching staff more than I do anyone else, don't get me wrong, but he still is the General Manager of the team.

 

We don't know who lobbied to get McCoy in here on a big contract in a scheme that doesn't suit him, we don't know who wanted to run that power run scheme without aggressively pursuing the monster offensive line that made it work in San Francisco. Again I'm all about blaming Rex and Roman but are we sure as outsiders we can completely give Whaley a pass for these shortcomings?

 

I could easily sit here and debate with people from either side. The Pegulas are privy to information that we aren't and I'm just going to hope whatever they decide to do works out, because either road is perfectly defensible imo.

[GunnerBill]

I understand why the Whaley debate splits fans the way it does because there are some really good moves and some poor moves. In addition, many of his "signature moves" thinking Sammy and Shady here are moves that in and of themselves split the fanbase.

 

I am generally a Whaley supporter and believe he is batting above the NFL hit average. I think the roster last year was a top 12 NFL roster and was pissed away by bad coaching. This year our roster is somewhere between 16 and 20 for me (although that depends on Tyrod at least getting back to 2015 form).

 

It is also the case that neither of the Head Coaches he has been given to work with have been his unambiguous choice. That is a shame I think in terms of being able to judge him properly.

 

However, and I say this as Whaley supporter... if this season goes the way I feel it will I think he goes. I want to allow myself a total fresh pair of eyes and the possibility of attracting a top Head Coach by allowing him to have a say in the GM or attracting a top GM candidate by allowing him total authority in picking the Head Coach.

Edited September 17, 2016 by GunnerBill

[jahnyc]

We need a GM that will have real independent decision making authority on players and coaches. The way our current head coach and the prior head coach were hired was far from ideal. We can debate Whaley all we want, but the reality is that there are too many cooks in the kitchen right now. Whaley is not suddenly going to be given more authority for whatever the reasons. To fix this, the Pegulas need to hire a GM that they are willing to trust, respect and not interfere with. That person is not going to be Whaley.

[The Frankish Reich]

We need a GM that will have real independent decision making authority on players and coaches. The way our current head coach and the prior head coach were hired was far from ideal. We can debate Whaley all we want, but the reality is that there are too many cooks in the kitchen right now. Whaley is not suddenly going to be given more authority for whatever the reasons. To fix this, the Pegulas need to hire a GM that they are willing to trust, respect and not interfere with. That person is not going to be Whaley.

Nicely put. Whaley has a future in the NFL. But for me the realization that this is not the right spot for him wasn't when Rex was hired. It was when Rob was hired. That's what caused the Bills to descend into being a joke. I don't know if Rex was forced on Whaley or not, but I can't imagine he had any interest in doubling down by bringing in Rob too. That meant that he'd lost all critical decisionmaking authority, and with that, his time with this franchise had passed.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

There is nothing wrong with trading picks, you do need to be very smart about it though. Butler was the GM, cap issues belong to him as does building the team. The Bills big issue was firing Polian. As much as we all dislike TD and his coaching selections, he did somewhat put us back together....but this is not the point of this thread....

The reason we were in the playoffs those years were due to Polian and the core he assembled as GM...

 

I don't disagree that Polian was a big loss. However, people who are super-nostalgic for Polian and the superbowl glory years need to remember that Polian was the Bills GM from 1986 to 1992.

Unrestricted free agency replaced "Plan B" in 1992.

 

While Polian had success in Carolina and Indy, it was never able to be as sustained as in Buffalo.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Hapless Bills Fan

[Reed83HOF]

 

I don't disagree that Polian was a big loss. However, people who are super-nostalgic for Polian and the superbowl glory years need to remember that Polian was the Bills GM from 1986 to 1992.

Unrestricted free agency replaced "Plan B" in 1992.

 

While Polian had success in Carolina and Indy, it was never able to be as sustained as in Buffalo.

 

You are entirely correct.

 

While I do like Butler, I think we also have a tendency to think he was impeccable; he wasn't and life wouldn't have necessarily been great if he stayed. When you look at his drafts and compare them to TDs; really not too different overall. Butler didn't have a full rebuild like TD, but he did have a few HOFers still around and much better coaches to develop his talent and lead the team.

 

I do wonder how life would have been different if Polian stayed though...Oh well

[PolishDave]

We don't know who lobbied to get McCoy in here on a big contract in a scheme that doesn't suit him, we don't know who wanted to run that power run scheme without aggressively pursuing the monster offensive line that made it work in San Francisco. Again I'm all about blaming Rex and Roman but are we sure as outsiders we can completely give Whaley a pass for these shortcomings?

 

If you want to have a running game, going out and getting one of the top rated running backs in the league makes a lot of sense. So, I applaud Whaley for getting the best back he could get his hands on. It is unbelievable that this staff can't get more production out of the running game with Shady as the running back, but maybe Shady isn't as good as he was in years past right now. Still, I don't see how anyone can blame him for getting a star running back if the intent was to be able to run the ball.

 

As far as giving him a complete pass - I don't think the guy is perfect. I think he is top ten in terms of talent evaluators. I give him that praise based on his selection of free agents, trades and yes drafts too. Name me another GM who gets that trade done for Hughes while giving up a mostly unproductive Kelvin Sheppard? I am completely convinced Whaley will build a Superbowl team. I think he is well on his way. We are a quarterback short - as are most teams.

 

If we could get players to lay off the weed and knock off the other personal life antics, this team would be much, better. Maybe that is Whaley's biggest fault - not paying enough attention to personal character. Other than that though, the guy has an eye for talent - He spots talent in players that are relatively unknown. I am confident that the injured guys he drafted this year will end up being good players and this team will be better yet.

 

Getting rid of him would be dang foolish and would set this team back a lot unless they got someone else in here that could evaluate talent that well. And I really doubt they would.

Edited September 17, 2016 by PolishDave