Marv Levy Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 Which Offensive line is better for Drew? The Bills or Cowboys? Ya gotta go with the Bills I feel. So if he can't get outta the pocket, he's gonna be much worse with the Dallas front line. I mean, seriously, who is their O Line Stud?? Don't they know he can't scramble?! Best of luck to you Drew! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 Adams and Allen, two guys who went to the pro bowl this year. Plus Witten at TE who also went to the pro bowl. Tell me again how many Bills linemen went to the pro bowl? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 As the year progressed, it became increasingly obvious to me that there were just too many times that Drew...even with great protection...was not successful because he simply made bad decisions. To that end, put who you want on the front line...it won't matter if he doesn't make good decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheRocks Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 i agree....a statue making bad decisions behind the best OL in the league or a statue making bad decisions behind the worst OL in the league is still ............. a statue....making bad decisions. Bill Parcells will most certainly clutch his chest more than a handful of times as he watches his new starting QB stand around for 4...5...6...seconds as the pocket collapes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RVJ Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 Which Offensive line is better for Drew? The Bills or Cowboys? Ya gotta go with the Bills I feel. So if he can't get outta the pocket, he's gonna be much worse with the Dallas front line. I mean, seriously, who is their O Line Stud?? Don't they know he can't scramble?! Best of luck to you Drew! 249899[/snapback] It doesn't matter. The difference is you have Parcells yelling...Dammit Drew get rid of the freaking ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRH Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 It doesn't matter. The difference is you have Parcells yelling...Dammit Drewget rid of the freaking ball. 249934[/snapback] That's better than the $13.95 travel alarm clock we used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Rich Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 Adams and Allen, two guys who went to the pro bowl this year. Plus Witten at TE who also went to the pro bowl. Tell me again how many Bills linemen went to the pro bowl? 249908[/snapback] Quite a few, actually: Stew Barber Joe DeLamielleure Ruben Brown KENT HULL Howard Ballard Will Wolford Billy Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 Quite a few, actually: Stew Barber Joe DeLamielleure Ruben Brown KENT HULL Howard Ballard Will Wolford Billy Shaw 250001[/snapback] How about last year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Rich Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 Oh. You meant LAST YEAR. Never mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrobot Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 Just watched the Browns game. FWIW, Drew had time, but threw over heads (3 INT's, I think), behind Moulds on at least 3 occasions where 1 would have been an easy TD, and threw it away when he perceived pressure that Losman will just squirrel out of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 Which Offensive line is better for Drew? The Bills or Cowboys? Ya gotta go with the Bills I feel. So if he can't get outta the pocket, he's gonna be much worse with the Dallas front line. I mean, seriously, who is their O Line Stud?? Don't they know he can't scramble?! Best of luck to you Drew! 249899[/snapback] Hard to say which O-line is better. The Bills O-line looked pretty decent at times during the last 12 games of the season, and Drew didn't always take advantage. Hard to tell sometimes how much of the O-line was due to McGahee...I think he played some role... That being said, the Cowboys O-line is not good! They do have a considerable amount to spend under the cap, depending on how much they pay Drew. If they upgrade their O-line, Bledsoe will be stepping into a pretty good situation. A very good coaching staff, a defense that should be better than it was last year (good-bye Marcellus!), a very weak conference, and enough offensive talent that there really shouldn't be any more excuses for Bledsoe to not at least take the Pokes to a wild card spot....I am not saying it will happen, just that it could very well happen. Bledsoe is stepping into a better situation with the 2005 Cowboys, than he was the 2002 Bills. Parcells give him a huge advantage over Gregg Williams. Living in Texas, I am subjected to the Cowboys and Texans every weekend. It will be nice to have a reason, after 15 years, not to absolutely hate the Cowboys... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mary owen Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 Just watched the Browns game. FWIW, Drew had time, but threw over heads (3 INT's, I think), behind Moulds on at least 3 occasions where 1 would have been an easy TD, and threw it away when he perceived pressure that Losman will just squirrel out of. 250026[/snapback] damn! and that was a game that drew "won" for us (adios Bledsoe, y tome su mala toma de decisión con usted) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsNYC Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 Drew is washed up, his career is finished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fezmid Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 How about last year? 250006[/snapback] I'd settle for THIS CENTURY.... CW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 I'd settle for THIS CENTURY.... CW 250113[/snapback] Brown did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fezmid Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 Brown did. 250138[/snapback] Yeah, but that doesn't count because he sucked, remember? Everyone on TSW said so. CW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 As we clearly saw last years, the OL (like the QB, the gameplan, the RB, and a host of factors) are all critical in determing the number of sacks and the outcome of the game. I think Bledsoe is going into a tougher situation as a QB simply because not only is the Boys' OL worse, but their whole team is worse in many areas (the W/L and outcomes reflected that). However, he big thing i think Bledsoe and the Boys will have on thier side is that they have an HC in charge with a record of improvement of almost every team he has been with (last year's boys squad I think was perhaps the sole NFL exception) and a record of ultimate achievement of multiple SB wins with different teams and different times. Parcells has a proven great football mind and an amazing personality and force of will to communicate his ideas and make them so on a football team. In particular his ability to make positive change while maintaining loyalty and a TEAM I think is unsurpassed by anyone I have seen in the league. Folks like Coughlin have an ability to force positive change, but he wears out his welcome and eventually his teams founder. Belicheck has now produced a record which arguably surpasses Parcells (if one chooses to give Parcells no credit for being smart enough to hire Belicheck) You also have to ignore the dumbluck that Belicheck has been the benificiary of because I doubt if Mo Lewis had not done him the favor of collapsing Bledsoe's lung, I'm pretty sure they would have missed the playoffs that year and Belicheck would have spun down the drain with Drew until he got the cojones to change QBs and surivied the ensuing QB controversy that the change would have caused. In addition, Belicheck's complete mishandling of the Milloy negotiations led to numerous players remarking publicly about how stupidly he handled it and Belicheck having no rational response but to apologize. Fortunately for NE, the team was hit with a huge number of critical injuries which forced the team to confront some more immediate problems (particularly after the cut let to a 0-31 blow-out to the Bills and Bledsoe) and do a personal gut check which once again brought the teammates together as a TEAM. At any rate, back to the thread question. I think that Parcells will have to make use of a couple of other advantages to make this situation work with Bledsoe's strengths and limitations. 1. Jones at RB- We saw with WM and the Bills what a difference having a performing RB can make for your pass protection. Their RB Jones is going to have to continue the production he began to show at the end of last season the boys will have to run and run the ball again or the defenders will pin their ears back for the recurring Bledsoe passes and blitz and blitz again. Jones will not only have to run well to keep that a lead option for Bledsoe ahnd keep the defenders from thinking pass, but he and his RB teammates will need to focus and perfect their blitz pick-up and chip blocking if the OL proves to be a sieve. 2. Clements really provided a great contrast with Kevin Killdrive in how you get the most out of Bledsoe on O- The winning record came from the Bills D and ST being outstanding and not from improvements in the O. However, only the most foolhardy of the Bledsoe bashers would fail to admit that the Bills O and Bledsoe's production improved substantially from 2003 to 2004. True, it only improved from horrendous in 2003 to inadequate in 2004, but improve it did and it provided a textbook on how to get more production out of Bledsoe: A. You gotta use Blesdsoe as a runner and this can be done- Bledsoe will never be mistaken for John Flway or even Bobby Douglass (not a football brain and he had one passing speed which was too hard, but i still think he holds the record for rushing yards in a season by a QB putting up almost 100o yards in a 14 game season for the Bears). However, he is a big boy and besides the Mo Lewis hit he can bounce up from a hard tackle wether it is from a sack or a run play. Killdrive was so pass-happy and the audibles from an overconfident Bledsoe made the team pass crazy that DTs did not worry about the gap they left uncovered when they blitzed and LBs would abandon covering the middle of the field as they looked for the best blitz angle from the outside. Clements ran Bledsoe on the quick opener several times last season because even if this run only got 5-6 yards before the poor running Bledsoe was brought down (get Michael Vick beyond the line of scrimmage as Bledsoe did on the quick opener and you were looking at a 20+ yard gain). However, even these runs forced the defense to wait and watch for the run before selling out to blitz or they were going to be faced with a running down and WM on second or third down. B. In addition to using his big body for the QB draw, Bledsoe does have the experience and the ball handling ability to run the trick play. From the fake sneak leading to a pitch back to WM and the TD to the WM pitch back to Bledsoe leading to the bomb to Evans or Moulds you gotta put the D on its heels or the pass ruch will eat Bledsoe alive. 3. Use Bledsoe as a change-up not as the lead option- Bledsoe still has a powerful arm which can thread the ball into places other QBs do not have the arm speed to make the throw. However, you have to be judicious with the use of this tool and it is invaluable in high winds or on 2nd and 1. If you got to the arm too much you end up with pat-pat-pat sack or him locking on to a receiver and the DB locking onto his eyes. Clements dealt with this after game 4 by limiting Bledsoe's ability to audible which also benefited everyone on O by simplifying the offense. They also rained Bledsoe to get rid of the ball rather than going into the pat with an alram clock set to four seconds and this seemed to work unless the Bills lost total control of the game and Bledsoe resumed bad habits trying to throw one TD for 12 points. The alrarm clock actually replaced Parcells consistent yelling of throw the damn ball in practice which got NE to an SB under Bledsoe. After a year of practice he should be even more prone to Parcells personality. 4. Nothing succeeds like success- Bledsoe has obvious problems throwing the short ball with any touch. This is understandable as NFL QBs are taught to throw the ball hard and fast everytime whether he receiver is running a fly or running a flare. However, what Bledsoe seems tobe reminded of constantly is that even though it is demanded you throw it hard and fast everytime, that there is still a different touch needed to throw it hard and fast to a guy 40 yards away than when the receiver is ten yards from you, Bledsoe has succeeded at this before, but all too often he seems to get over excited and simply wails the ball over the head or into the ground of a receiver a few yards away. To some degree Bledsoe s always going to throw the ball too hard for many situations. Your receiver needs to be as good as Ben Coates or Larry Centers and handle these throws, if they are not then sorry you needs a different receiver or a different QB. However, Bledsoe can get on a roll and do the right thing and respond to the consistently to the right coaching as when he completed over 40 passes to Travis Henry (an OK catcher but he does can get anxious and tend to run before he makes the catch a bit too much) and I think roughly 50 to klarry Centers in 2002. Those who claim Bledsoe cannot hit the short pass at all are simply wrong. Under the right circumstance with good coaching (which i know the boys have), and with good receivers (which i do not know if the boys have) he can effectively use the outlet pass. Look the Cowboys were bad last year. Bledsoe was at best inadequate last year after a horrible year in 2003. However, the folks who paint a picture of him being totally incapable of anything correct in all cases are simply wrong. Under the correct curcumstances: 1. Bledsoe is capable of deserving his reserve Pro Bowl nod in 2002 season when he got my vote as Comeback Player or the year when he followed up a 2002 when he was correctly abandoned by NE for a younger better QB, but in 2003 his performance was essential to us improving from 3-13 to 9-8 and him leading an O which qualified multiple players for the Pro Bowl with him completing 100 passs to Moulds, 94 to Peerless, a bunch to his RBs and handing off to Travis for 1400. 2. Bledsoe is capable of playing QB in the majority of a must win game, throw the winning score and win the game even though his overall statistics were average at best running an O designed for a better QB. I don't care what style points my #2 QB gets in this situation as long as the team wins. The fact that he gracefully gave up the starting role in the SB withiut a squawk was actually a real bonus as he did when he played an essential role in NE winning the SB. This clearly was brady's team, but is also clear that Bledsoe played an essential role in helping this team get the ring in the 2001 season. 3. Bledsoe is capable of leading a team to an SB berth under Parcells as he did in the mid 90s. Is it likely that Bledsoe will have a good season next year with Dallas. I doubt it, the vast majority of pro athletes leave the field for the last time on their sheilds rather than carrying them as they are driven off like Jim Kelly was in the playoff game in a complete stupor in a golfcart after he got concussed playing a game he was too old to play like he did in the old days. However, that stupor did not dusqualify him at all from deserving entry into the HOF on the first ballot has he really had a great and storied career. Likewise, a lof of his high in the league stats are because of longevity and his pass happy nature. However simple longevity matters a lot in this life which can seem to be over in the blink of an eye and in measuring pro football performance. its not enough, nor are even mere good stats enough to merit admission into the HOF. Yet ironically it was a Peter King column which was posted on TSW in the last few days that argued against Bledsoe qualifying yet for entry into the HOF which pretty much convinced me he deserves entry (whether he gets in or not actually depends on when he retires and who retireas arounf the same time. The fans on the HOF committee are as falsely QB addicted as most fans and if Bledsoe comes up for eligibility with a weak QB crop he is in. The King column gave backhanded compliments to Bledsoe but so skewed the facts (it presented the Bills team which Bledsoe inherited as ready for the playoffs- a crew coming off of cap hell and a 3-13 year ready for the playoffs or more- please). The thing which puts him over the top in my book is not his stats (lots of guys put up gaudy numbers), but the fact he has reached the highest level of the game taking a team to an SB berth (even if they lost, Dan Marino will tell you how tough that is to do and even the great ones are denied that or a win) and that he played an essential role in getting a team to an SB win even if he was not the guy who really got them there, he did play an essential role in a must win game. Simply winning is not enough (Trent Dilfer should tell you that). Simply racking up stats is not enough in my book (though ui think Dan Fouts is actually in for some reason). Having particpated in winning (making to the SB and even being an essential though not the main part by far of an SB winner is being a winner in my book) in the NFL and having put up some gaudy stats even through longevity is good enough to join the other flawed characters in the HOF in my book. Give Bledsoe my non-vote if his career continues at its current downward plunge. If however, it accelerates and he becomes a cancer I have some questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mary owen Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 As we clearly saw last years, the OL (like the QB, the gameplan, the RB, and a host of factors) are all critical in determing the number of sacks and the outcome of the game. I think Bledsoe is going into a tougher situation as a QB simply because not only is the Boys' OL worse, but their whole team is worse in many areas (the W/L and outcomes reflected that). However, he big thing i think Bledsoe and the Boys will have on thier side is that they have an HC in charge with a record of improvement of almost every team he has been with (last year's boys squad I think was perhaps the sole NFL exception) and a record of ultimate achievement of multiple SB wins with different teams and different times. Parcells has a proven great football mind and an amazing personality and force of will to communicate his ideas and make them so on a football team. In particular his ability to make positive change while maintaining loyalty and a TEAM I think is unsurpassed by anyone I have seen in the league. Folks like Coughlin have an ability to force positive change, but he wears out his welcome and eventually his teams founder. Belicheck has now produced a record which arguably surpasses Parcells (if one chooses to give Parcells no credit for being smart enough to hire Belicheck) You also have to ignore the dumbluck that Belicheck has been the benificiary of because I doubt if Mo Lewis had not done him the favor of collapsing Bledsoe's lung, I'm pretty sure they would have missed the playoffs that year and Belicheck would have spun down the drain with Drew until he got the cojones to change QBs and surivied the ensuing QB controversy that the change would have caused. In addition, Belicheck's complete mishandling of the Milloy negotiations led to numerous players remarking publicly about how stupidly he handled it and Belicheck having no rational response but to apologize. Fortunately for NE, the team was hit with a huge number of critical injuries which forced the team to confront some more immediate problems (particularly after the cut let to a 0-31 blow-out to the Bills and Bledsoe) and do a personal gut check which once again brought the teammates together as a TEAM. At any rate, back to the thread question. I think that Parcells will have to make use of a couple of other advantages to make this situation work with Bledsoe's strengths and limitations. 1. Jones at RB- We saw with WM and the Bills what a difference having a performing RB can make for your pass protection. Their RB Jones is going to have to continue the production he began to show at the end of last season the boys will have to run and run the ball again or the defenders will pin their ears back for the recurring Bledsoe passes and blitz and blitz again. Jones will not only have to run well to keep that a lead option for Bledsoe ahnd keep the defenders from thinking pass, but he and his RB teammates will need to focus and perfect their blitz pick-up and chip blocking if the OL proves to be a sieve. 2. Clements really provided a great contrast with Kevin Killdrive in how you get the most out of Bledsoe on O- The winning record came from the Bills D and ST being outstanding and not from improvements in the O. However, only the most foolhardy of the Bledsoe bashers would fail to admit that the Bills O and Bledsoe's production improved substantially from 2003 to 2004. True, it only improved from horrendous in 2003 to inadequate in 2004, but improve it did and it provided a textbook on how to get more production out of Bledsoe: A. You gotta use Blesdsoe as a runner and this can be done- Bledsoe will never be mistaken for John Flway or even Bobby Douglass (not a football brain and he had one passing speed which was too hard, but i still think he holds the record for rushing yards in a season by a QB putting up almost 100o yards in a 14 game season for the Bears). However, he is a big boy and besides the Mo Lewis hit he can bounce up from a hard tackle wether it is from a sack or a run play. Killdrive was so pass-happy and the audibles from an overconfident Bledsoe made the team pass crazy that DTs did not worry about the gap they left uncovered when they blitzed and LBs would abandon covering the middle of the field as they looked for the best blitz angle from the outside. Clements ran Bledsoe on the quick opener several times last season because even if this run only got 5-6 yards before the poor running Bledsoe was brought down (get Michael Vick beyond the line of scrimmage as Bledsoe did on the quick opener and you were looking at a 20+ yard gain). However, even these runs forced the defense to wait and watch for the run before selling out to blitz or they were going to be faced with a running down and WM on second or third down. B. In addition to using his big body for the QB draw, Bledsoe does have the experience and the ball handling ability to run the trick play. From the fake sneak leading to a pitch back to WM and the TD to the WM pitch back to Bledsoe leading to the bomb to Evans or Moulds you gotta put the D on its heels or the pass ruch will eat Bledsoe alive. 3. Use Bledsoe as a change-up not as the lead option- Bledsoe still has a powerful arm which can thread the ball into places other QBs do not have the arm speed to make the throw. However, you have to be judicious with the use of this tool and it is invaluable in high winds or on 2nd and 1. If you got to the arm too much you end up with pat-pat-pat sack or him locking on to a receiver and the DB locking onto his eyes. Clements dealt with this after game 4 by limiting Bledsoe's ability to audible which also benefited everyone on O by simplifying the offense. They also rained Bledsoe to get rid of the ball rather than going into the pat with an alram clock set to four seconds and this seemed to work unless the Bills lost total control of the game and Bledsoe resumed bad habits trying to throw one TD for 12 points. The alrarm clock actually replaced Parcells consistent yelling of throw the damn ball in practice which got NE to an SB under Bledsoe. After a year of practice he should be even more prone to Parcells personality. 4. Nothing succeeds like success- Bledsoe has obvious problems throwing the short ball with any touch. This is understandable as NFL QBs are taught to throw the ball hard and fast everytime whether he receiver is running a fly or running a flare. However, what Bledsoe seems tobe reminded of constantly is that even though it is demanded you throw it hard and fast everytime, that there is still a different touch needed to throw it hard and fast to a guy 40 yards away than when the receiver is ten yards from you, Bledsoe has succeeded at this before, but all too often he seems to get over excited and simply wails the ball over the head or into the ground of a receiver a few yards away. To some degree Bledsoe s always going to throw the ball too hard for many situations. Your receiver needs to be as good as Ben Coates or Larry Centers and handle these throws, if they are not then sorry you needs a different receiver or a different QB. However, Bledsoe can get on a roll and do the right thing and respond to the consistently to the right coaching as when he completed over 40 passes to Travis Henry (an OK catcher but he does can get anxious and tend to run before he makes the catch a bit too much) and I think roughly 50 to klarry Centers in 2002. Those who claim Bledsoe cannot hit the short pass at all are simply wrong. Under the right circumstance with good coaching (which i know the boys have), and with good receivers (which i do not know if the boys have) he can effectively use the outlet pass. Look the Cowboys were bad last year. Bledsoe was at best inadequate last year after a horrible year in 2003. However, the folks who paint a picture of him being totally incapable of anything correct in all cases are simply wrong. Under the correct curcumstances: 1. Bledsoe is capable of deserving his reserve Pro Bowl nod in 2002 season when he got my vote as Comeback Player or the year when he followed up a 2002 when he was correctly abandoned by NE for a younger better QB, but in 2003 his performance was essential to us improving from 3-13 to 9-8 and him leading an O which qualified multiple players for the Pro Bowl with him completing 100 passs to Moulds, 94 to Peerless, a bunch to his RBs and handing off to Travis for 1400. 2. Bledsoe is capable of playing QB in the majority of a must win game, throw the winning score and win the game even though his overall statistics were average at best running an O designed for a better QB. I don't care what style points my #2 QB gets in this situation as long as the team wins. The fact that he gracefully gave up the starting role in the SB withiut a squawk was actually a real bonus as he did when he played an essential role in NE winning the SB. This clearly was brady's team, but is also clear that Bledsoe played an essential role in helping this team get the ring in the 2001 season. 3. Bledsoe is capable of leading a team to an SB berth under Parcells as he did in the mid 90s. Is it likely that Bledsoe will have a good season next year with Dallas. I doubt it, the vast majority of pro athletes leave the field for the last time on their sheilds rather than carrying them as they are driven off like Jim Kelly was in the playoff game in a complete stupor in a golfcart after he got concussed playing a game he was too old to play like he did in the old days. However, that stupor did not dusqualify him at all from deserving entry into the HOF on the first ballot has he really had a great and storied career. Likewise, a lof of his high in the league stats are because of longevity and his pass happy nature. However simple longevity matters a lot in this life which can seem to be over in the blink of an eye and in measuring pro football performance. its not enough, nor are even mere good stats enough to merit admission into the HOF. Yet ironically it was a Peter King column which was posted on TSW in the last few days that argued against Bledsoe qualifying yet for entry into the HOF which pretty much convinced me he deserves entry (whether he gets in or not actually depends on when he retires and who retireas arounf the same time. The fans on the HOF committee are as falsely QB addicted as most fans and if Bledsoe comes up for eligibility with a weak QB crop he is in. The King column gave backhanded compliments to Bledsoe but so skewed the facts (it presented the Bills team which Bledsoe inherited as ready for the playoffs- a crew coming off of cap hell and a 3-13 year ready for the playoffs or more- please). The thing which puts him over the top in my book is not his stats (lots of guys put up gaudy numbers), but the fact he has reached the highest level of the game taking a team to an SB berth (even if they lost, Dan Marino will tell you how tough that is to do and even the great ones are denied that or a win) and that he played an essential role in getting a team to an SB win even if he was not the guy who really got them there, he did play an essential role in a must win game. Simply winning is not enough (Trent Dilfer should tell you that). Simply racking up stats is not enough in my book (though ui think Dan Fouts is actually in for some reason). Having particpated in winning (making to the SB and even being an essential though not the main part by far of an SB winner is being a winner in my book) in the NFL and having put up some gaudy stats even through longevity is good enough to join the other flawed characters in the HOF in my book. Give Bledsoe my non-vote if his career continues at its current downward plunge. If however, it accelerates and he becomes a cancer I have some questions. 250394[/snapback] who's ready for the New Testament???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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