Mario Says Dolphins D is "That Much Sweeter" for Him

[quinnearlysghost88]

How much is him and how much is his line?

I get this argument but he's still putting up top 10 passing yards. so, really, he's still being effective even with all of the sacks. what i'm saying is eliminate a lot of those sacks and make some quicker decisions and he could potentially be a top 5 passer.

[CountryCletus]

 

I'll vouch for K-9, as he was squarely in the corner of "Mario is dogging it" when many others (including myself) defended him.

 

I didn't pick up on hit until the back-to-back efforts against Washington and Philadelphia.

Apparently you use the word "effort" loosely, lol

[thebandit27]

I get this argument but he's still putting up top 10 passing yards. so, really, he's still being effective even with all of the sacks. what i'm saying is eliminate a lot of those sacks and make some quicker decisions and he could potentially be a top 5 passer.

 

Aside from yardage, he's below-average in nearly every metric.

 

20th in completion percentage

28th in red zone completion percentage

18th in completion percentage beyond 20 yards

21st in passer rating

27th in total QBR

16th in YPA

 

I'm sure some of that is him getting killed; I'm also sure that some of that is on him.

Apparently you use the word "effort" loosely, lol

 

I suppose I should've thrown "(or lack thereof)" in there for clarity

[Beef Jerky]

Too

I get this argument but he's still putting up top 10 passing yards. so, really, he's still being effective even with all of the sacks. what i'm saying is eliminate a lot of those sacks and make some quicker decisions and he could potentially be a top 5 passer.

 

Heh Ryan Tannehill, look at yourself man you think Tannehill is anything but a bad QB... How long have you been watching the Dolphins? He is never going to be good.

[FLFan]

Too

 

Heh Ryan Tannehill, look at yourself man you think Tannehill is anything but a bad QB... How long have you been watching the Dolphins? He is never going to be good.

The problem with Tannehill is not the number of sacks, but his tendency to panic under pressure and force mistakes. If he were better, he would get sacked less. He is certainly not the only problem with Miami, but he is no savior.

[chris heff]

When the Bills first signed Mario I felt cautiously optimistic. I never thought he lived up to being the first pick. He had suffered through a lot of mediocrity in Houston. Why come to Buffalo? It struck me that it was more about money than winning. Mario never gave the impression that he was a team leader. I always felt Mario was all about Mario. That being said he gave the Bills a couple of good years. Last year was very odd, his behavior justified my initial concern. Mario is like a petulant child, if he doesn't get his way he pouts. I think Miami can expect more of the same. If they let him do what he wants they will get a return on their investment, if not expect more pouting.

Edited September 7, 2016 by chris heff

[CountryCletus]

 

Aside from yardage, he's below-average in nearly every metric.

 

20th in completion percentage

28th in red zone completion percentage

18th in completion percentage beyond 20 yards

21st in passer rating

27th in total QBR

16th in YPA

 

I'm sure some of that is him getting killed; I'm also sure that some of that is on him.

 

 

I suppose I should've thrown "(or lack thereof)" in there for clarity

I knew what you meant- I just laughed a little...

[thebandit27]

I knew what you meant- I just laughed a little...

 

Oh I know--hence the laughing emoji thingy

[Nihilarian]

 

 

Curious. As I seem to recall in that game in particular, Brady was getting rid of the ball in a ridiculously short amount of time. I forgot what the average amount of time was and am too lazy right now to try to look it up. It was a very short amount of time though.

 

Nevertheless, where a QB is forced or intends to get rid of the ball very, very quickly, there is little a defense can do about that. Moreover, given that the goal of a pass rush is to pressure the QB into throwing the ball quickly or risk getting sacked, in a very real sense, this aspect of the defense succeeded where the QB (Brady here) is forced to get rid of the ball quickly. What happens after that is a separate issue.

 

Just my two cents.

That is true that Tom Brady has a very quick release and so does Ryan Fitzpatrick who the Bills beat 2x last year. Fitz might even be a bit quicker too. The thing is that quick release didn't help Brady in the second game in NE when the Bills were able to put more pressure on him then he had seen the last seven years and to the tune of about 50% of his dropbacks.

 

It was really all about the game plan and effort that went into each game plan in my view. From ESPN after that first NE game.

 

 

"Rex Ryan, Dennis Thurman and defensive coaching staff: Ryan told his team that this loss was on his shoulders, and so he's a natural place to start in the "down" column. Ryan's defensive game plan couldn't put pressure on Tom Brady-- the Bills disrupted (a sack, batted ball, passed defense or interception) only 9.8 percent of Brady's dropbacks, a lower rate than in any of the Bills' 2014 games -- and he never seemed to have an effective plan for stopping either Rob Gronkowski or Julian Edelman."

http://espn.go.com/b...defensive-staff

 

 

Ah, yes, we are all just homers and can't look at things objectively. How about this? Your dislike for Rex Ryan has made it so you can't look at the 2015 season objectively.

 

As I've said before when this comes up: It can be both things. Mario gave up. Fact. If you are ok with players giving up on their teams, the fans and the coaches because they don't agree with the way in which they were being used, which btw Mario still had plenty of chances to pin his ears back and was ineffective, then I can't help you. Teams around the league noticed. Why do you think he wasn't in high demand? Why do you think he wasn't given a massive deal? Rex's defense failed to live up to expectations. Fact. Both things can be possible at the same time, you don't have to pick sides. They both can be contributing factors of why the defense failed in 2015.

 

Of course you don't mention the 2nd New England game, which was in Foxboro. A game in which M. Williams was hurt. Guess that was just dumb luck from Rex huh?

 

I do agree, It can be both things. I don't dislike Rex Ryan as I just don't like the defensive scheme he ran most of last year! I do look at Mario's play objectively and I have said he didn't always play up to his full ability at times and this has been well known his entire career. Which was something I didn't refute in the very post I quoted.

 

Funny, he dropped in to coverage in Jim Scwartz's scheme too.

 

Yes, Mario did drop into pass coverage at times under Schwartz and this was his main gripe in Ryan's scheme and just not to the extent that Rex Ryan had him dropping into coverage. After six games Dareus had been asked to drop around 5 times and Mario 14 times. Even Bills HoF QB Jim Kelly was questioning why Ryan was dropping the D-line players so often into pass coverage.

 

So there's little doubt, with K. Williams, A. Williams, S. Gilmore and N. Bradham all missing significant time in 2015, the Bills defense would have been right up there? Ok then.

 

In that second game against the Patriots in week 11 the Bills managed to put pressure on Brady to the tune of about 50% of his dropbacks and had him literally screaming at his O-linemen on the sidelines. Also, In that game Mario Williams was out injured as was Aaron Williams, Kyle Williams!!!

 

Gilmore only missed the last four games and yet the Bills defense put it to the 10-6 Jets while intercepting Fitz three times! Injuries are not an excuse when you can beat a 10-6 team to knock them out of the playoffs in the last game of the season.

 

 

Mario wasn't productive or effective because he chose not to be. Rex has made lesser talent work and be productive.

Mario wasn't as productive because Ryan asked him to eat a crap sandwich most of the season and he simply refused to eat it all the time. Mario still had five sacks last season which were as many sacks as Jerry Hughes, so he must have been giving some effort.

 

You, like many others, didn't even bother to read the link I provided that discusses why it looked like Mario gave up in many games. An ex-NFL player in Stephan White wrote an article for SB Nation talking about why Dareus and Mario disliked Ryan's defensive scheme against Cincinnati and listed the reasons why he agreed with them.

 

Some excerpts, http://www.sbnation.com/2015/10/21/9581575/mario-williams-marcell-dareus-rex-ryan-buffalo-bills-defense

 

"Both Dareus and Williams griped about how much the Bills pass rushing (and highly paid) defensive line was being asked to drop into coverage instead of rushing the passer. It was way too much in their estimation. I had the exact same complaint after watching them lose to the Bengals."

"But, there was more to it than that.

Both Williams and Jerry Hughes, the defensive end/OLB opposite Mario (who also just got paid), dropped quite a bit more than I thought was beneficial for the Bills against the Bengals. Sure, they can do it, and hey, neither one of them got really exposed in coverage -- aside from one time that Hughes was covering Bengals running back Jeremy Hill in space and missed the tackle on the sideline that turned into a 13-yard touchdown.

"The point is why would you not use your high-priced, elite pass rushers (Kyle Willaims don't come cheap either, bro) to do what they do best? Especially when the Bills -- the guys who blitzed Luck 25 times on 55 pass dropbacks in Week 1 -- only blitzed the Bengals 13 times the whole damn game.

Yes, that means those guys were dropping sometimes when there wasn't even a blitz coming."

"It's much worse than just Ryan having his best pass rushers dropping into coverage too much rather than actually, yanno, pass rushing.

One edge guy, either Williams or Hughes, generally gets to stand up and either set the edge/pass rush on the edge or drop into coverage when they line up in a base 3-4. The other edge rusher often has to line up on the offensive tackle rather than being on an edge. That's pretty much the opposite of an ideal situation for most highly skilled pass rushers.

Even having Mario Williams, a human cheat code with his ridiculous combination of size, strength and athletic ability, two-gapping an offensive tackle is a pretty dumb thing to do on a regular basis because it's obvious he doesn't like doing it! I greatly admire Williams' game, but he's just not that guy who wants to be lined up head-up and wrestle with a 300-pounder all game.

"Look, I'm seriously dumbfounded trying to figure out what Rex Ryan is trying to do from game to game. Where is the big, bad loudmouth who gets off the bus calling blitzes? Where is the dude who was going to play to his players' strengths? Where is the cat who said he was going to turn the Bills into bullies?!

Because, real talk, that was a dude I liked a lot. That was a dude I could see winning big consistently in Buffalo, even without a top quarterback. That was a dude I thought could coach his ass off if given the right pieces.

"After watching this film, I have no idea who this version of Rex Ryan is. And that is unfortunate. As tacky and inadvisable as it is for players to call out their coaches to the media, I do think Ryan should do himself a favor and actually start listening to what they are saying. The reason is simple, they are not wrong."

To sum things up there is a world of difference in playing a DE in a 4-3 and being asked to mostly rush the passer VS playing in a 3-4 two-gap scheme in which the DE reverts to an OLBer and is asked to control his gaps. Also, in that two-gap scheme, the linebacker is asked to wait for the play to develop and then read, react to the play instead of just rushing the passer.

To the ordinary eye, this might look like that OLBer is sitting on his hands while doing nothing. Yet he is doing precisely what the scheme calls for in waiting, reading, reacting. This was also something that the player was not used to doing at all.

Not to mention that the Bills coaches themselves were content with Mario's play,

Ryan. Defensive coordinator Dennis Thurman. Defensive line coach Karl Dunbar. Coaches have supported Williams all season long – possibly to a fault. Their message has never wavered.

Dunbar, all smiles, praised the veteran on Thursday.

Asked how one of this generation’s best pass rushers can last 54 snaps without one tackle, one hit, one sack, Dunbar reiterated they’re pleased with Williams’ play.

He’s doing a good job of coming off the edge and the quarterback’s getting rid of the ball,” Dunbar said. “It’s kind of hard because the defense we play is predicated on what they give us and who’s going to be the hot guy. Yeah, you wish you had more tackles, you wish you had more sacks. But I think he’s helping our defense based upon the things he’s doing.”

Dunbar cited linebacker Manny Lawson’s hit on Dallas’ Kellen Moore – the team’s only registered QB hit in the game – as one such play. Williams covered tight end James Hanna out of the backfield, eliminating the hot read and Moore was walloped.

"The coach asserts Williams “has been around the quarterback” and didn’t hesitate on if Williams has been giving his all.

“Yeah, I think so,” Dunbar said. “He’s out there doing the things we’ve asked him to do. … It’s a little bit different than what he’s done in the past, but I think it’s working for us.”

http://bills.buffalonews.com/2015/12/31/marios-swan-song-with-bills-is-near/

Edited September 7, 2016 by Nihilarian

[26CornerBlitz]

That is true that Tom Brady has a very quick release and so does Ryan Fitzpatrick who the Bills beat 2x last year. Fitz might even be a bit quicker too. The thing is that quick release didn't help Brady in the second game in NE when the Bills were able to put more pressure on him then he had seen the last seven years and to the tune of about 50% of his dropbacks.

 

It was really all about the game plan and effort that went into each game plan in my view. From ESPN after that first NE game.

 

 

"Rex Ryan, Dennis Thurman and defensive coaching staff: Ryan told his team that this loss was on his shoulders, and so he's a natural place to start in the "down" column. Ryan's defensive game plan couldn't put pressure on Tom Brady-- the Bills disrupted (a sack, batted ball, passed defense or interception) only 9.8 percent of Brady's dropbacks, a lower rate than in any of the Bills' 2014 games -- and he never seemed to have an effective plan for stopping either Rob Gronkowski or Julian Edelman."

http://espn.go.com/b...defensive-staff

 

Mario wasn't as productive because Ryan asked him to eat a crap sandwich most of the season and he simply refused to eat it all the time. Mario still had five sacks last season which were as many sacks as Jerry Hughes, so he must have been giving some effort.

 

You, like many others, didn't even bother to read the link I provided that discusses why it looked like Mario gave up in many games. An ex-NFL player in Stephan White wrote an article for SB Nation talking about why Dareus and Mario disliked Ryan's defensive scheme against Cincinnati and listed the reasons why he agreed with them.

 

Some excerpts, http://www.sbnation.com/2015/10/21/9581575/mario-williams-marcell-dareus-rex-ryan-buffalo-bills-defense

"Both Dareus and Williams griped about how much the Bills pass rushing (and highly paid) defensive line was being asked to drop into coverage instead of rushing the passer. It was way too much in their estimation. I had the exact same complaint after watching them lose to the Bengals."

"But, there was more to it than that.

Both Williams and Jerry Hughes, the defensive end/OLB opposite Mario (who also just got paid), dropped quite a bit more than I thought was beneficial for the Bills against the Bengals. Sure, they can do it, and hey, neither one of them got really exposed in coverage -- aside from one time that Hughes was covering Bengals running back Jeremy Hill in space and missed the tackle on the sideline that turned into a 13-yard touchdown.

"The point is why would you not use your high-priced, elite pass rushers (Kyle Willaims don't come cheap either, bro) to do what they do best? Especially when the Bills -- the guys who blitzed Luck 25 times on 55 pass dropbacks in Week 1 -- only blitzed the Bengals 13 times the whole damn game.

Yes, that means those guys were dropping sometimes when there wasn't even a blitz coming."

"It's much worse than just Ryan having his best pass rushers dropping into coverage too much rather than actually, yanno, pass rushing.

One edge guy, either Williams or Hughes, generally gets to stand up and either set the edge/pass rush on the edge or drop into coverage when they line up in a base 3-4. The other edge rusher often has to line up on the offensive tackle rather than being on an edge. That's pretty much the opposite of an ideal situation for most highly skilled pass rushers.

Even having Mario Williams, a human cheat code with his ridiculous combination of size, strength and athletic ability, two-gapping an offensive tackle is a pretty dumb thing to do on a regular basis because it's obvious he doesn't like doing it! I greatly admire Williams' game, but he's just not that guy who wants to be lined up head-up and wrestle with a 300-pounder all game.

"Look, I'm seriously dumbfounded trying to figure out what Rex Ryan is trying to do from game to game. Where is the big, bad loudmouth who gets off the bus calling blitzes? Where is the dude who was going to play to his players' strengths? Where is the cat who said he was going to turn the Bills into bullies?!

Because, real talk, that was a dude I liked a lot. That was a dude I could see winning big consistently in Buffalo, even without a top quarterback. That was a dude I thought could coach his ass off if given the right pieces.

"After watching this film, I have no idea who this version of Rex Ryan is. And that is unfortunate. As tacky and inadvisable as it is for players to call out their coaches to the media, I do think Ryan should do himself a favor and actually start listening to what they are saying. The reason is simple, they are not wrong."

To sum things up there is a world of difference in playing a DE in a 4-3 and being asked to mostly rush the passer VS playing in a 3-4 two-gap scheme in which the DE reverts to an OLBer and is asked to control his gaps. Also, in that two-gap scheme, the linebacker is asked to wait for the play to develop and then read, react to the play instead of just rushing the passer.

To the ordinary eye, this might look like that OLBer is sitting on his hands while doing nothing. Yet he is doing precisely what the scheme calls for in waiting, reading, reacting. This was also something that the player was not used to doing at all.

Not to mention that the Bills coaches themselves were content with Mario's play,

Ryan. Defensive coordinator Dennis Thurman. Defensive line coach Karl Dunbar. Coaches have supported Williams all season long – possibly to a fault. Their message has never wavered.

Dunbar, all smiles, praised the veteran on Thursday.

Asked how one of this generation’s best pass rushers can last 54 snaps without one tackle, one hit, one sack, Dunbar reiterated they’re pleased with Williams’ play.

He’s doing a good job of coming off the edge and the quarterback’s getting rid of the ball,” Dunbar said. “It’s kind of hard because the defense we play is predicated on what they give us and who’s going to be the hot guy. Yeah, you wish you had more tackles, you wish you had more sacks. But I think he’s helping our defense based upon the things he’s doing.”

Dunbar cited linebacker Manny Lawson’s hit on Dallas’ Kellen Moore – the team’s only registered QB hit in the game – as one such play. Williams covered tight end James Hanna out of the backfield, eliminating the hot read and Moore was walloped.

"The coach asserts Williams “has been around the quarterback” and didn’t hesitate on if Williams has been giving his all.

“Yeah, I think so,” Dunbar said. “He’s out there doing the things we’ve asked him to do. … It’s a little bit different than what he’s done in the past, but I think it’s working for us.”

http://bills.buffalonews.com/2015/12/31/marios-swan-song-with-bills-is-near/

 

Good God man! Tolstoy has nothing on you!

[YoloinOhio]

Dear Mario,

[section122]

 

Players play for one big contract. He got it. I'm pretty sure that he's got a hundred million other things to worry about other than his reputation. He stopped playing last year because he (along with the rest of the world) saw very early on that the Bills were going to be a horrible football team. He wisely chose to keep himself healthy and I can't/won't fault him for that.

 

You can guess all you want about how the D would have done under another year of Schwartz. The fact remains that under Schwartz, the D was great and so was Mario Williams.

 

You can't/won't fault him for choosing to stay healthy instead of putting forth effort? If a player on the mets did that how would you feel? If the company you work for is having a poor quarter do you mail it in?

 

Man, I've never seen such a Bills fan favorite fall so fast. From 14.5 sacks to 5 and everyone thinks it's all because the man wasn't trying.

 

I think the guy got a bad rap in a bad scheme and he takes the brunt of Rex Ryan's failure to produce sacks like the previous to DC's in Pettine and Schwartz. It wasn't just Mario who had a bad year in Ryan's defense and that defense sure made it easier to dump that 100 million dollar fan favorite.

 

The way I look at things is when an elite player is asked to perform in a scheme he can't play at his best in. Then that player easily gets discouraged after a certain amount of games.

 

Bruce Smith would have been much more vocal in Ryan's two-gap run-stopping scheme and I'd think he would want out just as badly as Mario did at the end.

 

It's gonna be really easy to see this year if it was the man or the scheme.

first bolded: The highest paid player in team history gets discouraged because he can't play at his best so he lays down? What?

 

second bolded: Bruce played de in a 3-4 which is not an ideal spot to put up the sack numbers he did. So 3-4 is not a scheme he could play his best in, shouldn't he have gotten discouraged?

 

Look. I can see that my stance is an unpopular one. I am NOT rooting for the Dolphins. I'm simply saying that Mario earned every penny he was paid whilst in Buffalo. He was part of a solid top 5 defense and played hard. Then came Rex. Force fed an antiquated crap defense down the throats of players who knew better. Who do we fault?? The player who proved he was one of the best? Or the coach who "led" a Jets team (that was so loaded with defensive talent that they couldn't lose) to a couple AFC Championship games almost a decade ago? I fault the figurehead schitty coach.

 

You guys do what you want. I hope Mario beats the crap out of our team in a Bills win. Twice.

 

What does that even mean? You want to see a player beat the crap out of the Bills but the Bills win? I don't ever want to see any player play well against the Bills specifically one whose job is to hit the qb.

 

I'd like to know where all this vitriol towards Mario was when the the season was going on. You know, when they were actually playing. I certainly didn't see it on these boards in September and October. You would think 8 games would be enough to see that a player quit on his team, right? I recall people still discussing restructuring his contract as late as November. When it became apparent the season was over in December and Mario wasn't coming back -- that's when the pitchforks came out.

 

Mario has taken plays off his entire career, we all knew that. It all came to a head when Pete Prisco released an article showing all the plays he took off, that whipped the board "analysts" into the quitter rant.

 

He's played 10 seasons, under 7 different defensive coordinators, and he's flourished under all of them except for 1. You don't need to be a math major to figure out what's the constant and the variable in that equation.

 

I will say that I watched for it during the Washington game as there was already rumbling on the board. What I saw was terrible, pathetic, atrocious, whatever word you want to use for a disgusting lack of effort. I highly recommend you checking out that game and his performance then deciding on your opinion.

 

I don't think a lot of people picked up on him basically phoning it in until later in the season, but when you go back and look in retrospect, he was a malcontent. He may flourish in the wide 9, but it's his job to give 100% effort, and he did not.

 

Beat me to it but I agree specifically with the last part. I would have been okay with the dip in his production if I thought he was trying.

 

OV has one double double digit sack season and has 29 in 4 years. This rising star had 1.5 more sacks than old, declining terrible Mario who didn't try last year.

 

2.5 more and double the tackles. However 31 shouldn't be the end for a de. Especially one who relies on power and not speed. It all comes down to effort with Mario. I am one of the group that believes he will flash from time to time this year when he is motivated. Unfortunately I think that will be twice against us.

 

Like Orton? Because it seems like very few people called him out about it.

 

hmmm remember the slide in the denver game? 4th down and he gave up. He got killed (rightfully so) for that.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Dear Mario,

[eball]

 

Good God man! Tolstoy has nothing on you!

 

It's amazing the time some posters have to put into their crusades. Just amazing.

[Big Turk]

Miami seriously scares the hell out of me.

Nah...their secondary and linebackers are terrible

[Nihilarian]

second bolded: Bruce played de in a 3-4 which is not an ideal spot to put up the sack numbers he did. So 3-4 is not a scheme he could play his best in, shouldn't he have gotten discouraged?

The Bills purposely set up that 3-4 so Bruce could be the main pass rusher as Tally behind him at OLBer would take up the slack and wasn't a rusher. Bennett on the other side was used as a rusher and it's that pressure from both sides that helped the Bills pass rush become so good. Bruce probably would have flipped out had the team asked him to stop rushing the passer and become a gap control DE... and it would have been plain stupid to do that. Kinda like last year.

 

 

Most NFL teams in a 3-4 generally use a one-gap scheme and the 2015 Buffalo Bills played mostly in a two-gap run-stopping scheme.

 

"To sum things up there is a world of difference in playing a DE in a 4-3 and being asked to mostly rush the passer VS playing in a 3-4 two-gap scheme in which the DE reverts to an OLBer and is asked to control his gaps. Also, in that two-gap scheme, the linebacker is asked to wait for the play to develop and then read, react to the play instead of just rushing the passer.

To the ordinary eye, this might look like that OLBer is sitting on his hands while doing nothing. Yet he is doing precisely what the scheme calls for in waiting, reading, reacting. This was also something that the player* was not used to doing at all. " (* referring to Maro)

[eball]

Oh, good lord, it's going to be so much fun watching Mario be ordinary this season...

[YoloinOhio]

Oh, good lord, it's going to be so much fun watching Mario be ordinary this season...

ordinary would be a big improvement.

[Heitz]

Oh, good lord, it's going to be so much fun watching Mario be ordinary this season...

For real. F Mario - there's only ONE "Super" Mario and he'll be playing for Nintendo this year...