#34fan Posted September 3, 2016 Posted September 3, 2016 I think it's insane that at this point. Cardale wasn't exactly lighting it up. That said, I love that he gets to sit and learn. It's the best thing for most Qbs not named Peyton Manning (who went 3-13 his rookie year). Goff was a deer in headlights... He looked so clueless in his last PS game, I felt bad for him... Cardale looked improved from week one... The were some drops by guys who can't catch, and a nonexistent O-line, but mostly he looked the part. As far as that sitting and learning BS... It's necesary to a point, but can be overvalued as a means of teaching... Most people new to a job get better by DOING it repeatedly... Those reps, regardless of outcome, typically lead to improved performance.. -Except in Dan Herron's case.
C.Biscuit97 Posted September 3, 2016 Posted September 3, 2016 I'm not calling bust I'm just saying worried. There is a difference between going 1 and going 25...with the 1 pick you might think he'd play right away. I like that they're not forcing him and ruining him so this is the smart play. Yeah, I generally agree. Back in the day, it was very rare for Qbs to play right away. Our own franchise qb (Jim Kelly) was like 25 or 26 before he ever took his first NFL snaps. Same thing with Tyrod last year. If we forced Tyrod to play as a rookie, he probably won't be on the Bills right now. Goff was a deer in headlights... He looked so clueless in his last PS game, I felt bad for him... Cardale looked improved from week one... The were some drops by guys who can't catch, and a nonexistent O-line, but mostly he looked the part. As far as that sitting and learning BS... It's necesary to a point, but can be overvalued as a means of teaching... Most people new to a job get better by DOING it repeatedly... Those reps, regardless of outcome, typically lead to improved performance.. -Except in Dan Herron's case. http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/212836/preseason-stats-for-top-rookie-qbs-jared-goff-struggled-dak-prescott-starred Jones and Goff had almost the exact stats this preseason and Goff played against better competition. I have no idea who will be good but I won't get worked up one way or the other based on their first preseason. I believe Newton was terrible his first season and then threw for 400 yards in his first real game.
YoloinOhio Posted September 3, 2016 Author Posted September 3, 2016 Why? It's his rookie year. Aaron Rodgers turned out ok not playing right away.unless Case Keenum and Sean Mannion are both Secret Brett Favres, it's not the same thing.
C.Biscuit97 Posted September 3, 2016 Posted September 3, 2016 unless Case Keenum and Sean Mannion are both Secret Brett Favres, it's not the same thing. So is better for him to go out and produce like Alex Smith's rookie year?
YoloinOhio Posted September 3, 2016 Author Posted September 3, 2016 (edited) So is better for him to go out and produce like Alex Smith's rookie year?if he wasn't good enough to play right away, he wasn't good enough to go #1 and give up a kings ransom to get him. There is no established starter in front of him. They have an elite RB and top defense. There is no excuse to not play him. If he's not ready to play in the NFL , that's a bad, bad draft decision. Edited September 3, 2016 by YoloinOhio
#34fan Posted September 3, 2016 Posted September 3, 2016 So is better for him to go out and produce like Alex Smith's rookie year? No.. Like russell Wilson's -Don't forget how bad Eli looked his first few real games, and he's got some rings. it's a steep learning curve, no doubt, but one the young QB's must get on sooner rather than later...
C.Biscuit97 Posted September 3, 2016 Posted September 3, 2016 if he wasn't good enough to play right away, he wasn't good enough to go #1 and give up a kings ransom to get him. There is no established starter in front of him. They have an elite RB and top defense. There is no excuse to not play him. If he's not ready to play in the NFL , that's a bad, bad draft decision. Are you drafting him for this year or the potential of him being a 10 year franchise qb? It's funny because I hear a lot of people defending the Lawson pick here and his rookie season has already been seriously stunted. I'm from the school of thought that if he turns into a stud, I could care about a few games. And this is a qb. The hardest position in sports. It's crazy how people expect a 21 year old to master it in a month. No.. Like russell Wilson's -Don't forget how bad Eli looked his first few real games, and he's got some rings. it's a steep learning curve, no doubt, but one the young QB's must get on sooner rather than later... I get this point and it makes sense. At the same point, I think guys like Tyrod and Cardale were given a better chance to succeed than EJ because they werent rushed onto to the field. I've starting that getting drafted high is the worse thing that can happen to a qb. Insane amount of pressure and expectations. Look at how everything just changed for Prescott. It's nuts the pressure we put on these guys.
#34fan Posted September 3, 2016 Posted September 3, 2016 Jones and Goff had almost the exact stats this preseason and Goff played against better competition. Yah, but I didn't see Goff slamming D-linemen to the ground with one hand... I will agree with you that Goff may yet produce... However, if I HAD to start one of the two, It'd be the 4th rounder.
C.Biscuit97 Posted September 3, 2016 Posted September 3, 2016 Yah, but I didn't see Goff slamming D-linemen to the ground with one hand... I will agree with you that Goff may yet produce... However, if I HAD to start one of the two, It'd be the 4th rounder. Yeah, time will tell. I think the best thing that happened to Cardale is he wasn't a high pick. He isn't ready to play and can learn slowly. The pressure on 1st round Qbs is crazy.
OldTimer1960 Posted September 3, 2016 Posted September 3, 2016 if he wasn't good enough to play right away, he wasn't good enough to go #1 and give up a kings ransom to get him. There is no established starter in front of him. They have an elite RB and top defense. There is no excuse to not play him. If he's not ready to play in the NFL , that's a bad, bad draft decision. Gotta disagree with "if he wasn't good enough to start (immediately), he wasn't good enough to go #1". If he sits this year, plays and learns next and becomes a long-time NFL caliber starter, I think that is fine - even for first overall pick.
Mr. WEO Posted September 3, 2016 Posted September 3, 2016 It is largely the QB.... and certainly EJ wasn't as good of a prospect as any of those guys in the first place. However, with all those guys they had clever OCs their rookie year who accentuated their positives and hid to some extent their weaknesses. I'm not sure Nate Hackett as OC and QB coached helped EJ out at all. Not saying "poor old EJ he'd have been good otherwise" just making the point that OCs who understand the differences between college and the NFL and help young QBs make the transition is part of it. Look at what Shanahan did year 1 with RGIII. Basically ran the Baylor offense. Maybe Hackett is to blame, but Roman and Lee never saw him as the starter from the moment they got here. actually Brees had a really good rookie year and the Chargers gave up on him way too early after a rough 2nd season. But I get your point. Still we are seeing entire draft classes come and go with no new impact players at the position. I don't blame college coaches because they have enough to worry about without having to worry about grooming QBs with the NFL. It's just very interesting and I am curious to know what this position will look like in 10 years. Where isn't written every draft class has to produce "impact QB"? Go back and look at QB draft year by year. This is not a new phenomenon--it has been happening for decades. Whole drafts with no impact QBs. Many others have produced a single one. People have incredibly short memories or attention spans---this stuff gets repeated over and over, but it just isn't true: the number of impact starting QBs coming out year by year isn't different than the variation seen over a long period of time. Of course its the QB. Of course there are other factors. College game has a lot to do with their development, though, and some programs, like the one Goff came from are worse than others when it comes to development. Goff literally never called a play in a huddle and never took a snap from under center. And before you attempt to turn this into a classic WEO argument with continually moving goal lines, know that I'm not interested. Go troll somebody else. You never fail to promote/repeat a tired cliched argument no matter how easily proven false. Have a nice nap.
GunnerBill Posted September 3, 2016 Posted September 3, 2016 Maybe Hackett is to blame, but Roman and Lee never saw him as the starter from the moment they got here. I am not saying Hackett is to blame for EJ. My point is a wider non-EJ one. Coaching and how you bring a young QB does matter in terms of influencing what they turn into. Very few QBs get to totally set the reset button on their careers after it starts badly. Alex Smith might be the only one I think has in the 14 years I have been watching the league. Smith might just have been better than every other 1st round draft pick forced to start early but I suspect his development path and the way he was coached had an impact.
Beef Jerky Posted September 3, 2016 Posted September 3, 2016 (edited) I am not saying Hackett is to blame for EJ. My point is a wider non-EJ one. Coaching and how you bring a young QB does matter in terms of influencing what they turn into. Very few QBs get to totally set the reset button on their careers after it starts badly. Alex Smith might be the only one I think has in the 14 years I have been watching the league. Smith might just have been better than every other 1st round draft pick forced to start early but I suspect his development path and the way he was coached had an impact. Not exactly, coaching can only do so much. EJ can't even throw a proper screen... Always hits feet or too high. When you hear coaches talk about great QBs they always talk about how the QB is always alone watching tape making himself better. Edited September 3, 2016 by Beef Jerky
GunnerBill Posted September 3, 2016 Posted September 3, 2016 (edited) Not exactly, coaching can only do so much. EJ can't even throw a proper screen... Always hits feet or too high.I repeat... the point was not about EJ. It is about when and how to develop Quarterbacks. Edited September 3, 2016 by GunnerBill
Beef Jerky Posted September 3, 2016 Posted September 3, 2016 (edited) I repeat... the point was not about EJ. Yea don't worry I answered your "point" Edited September 3, 2016 by Beef Jerky
GunnerBill Posted September 3, 2016 Posted September 3, 2016 Your first sentence mentioned EJ, you should probably delete that then. My first sentence was an attempt to make clear to WEO that I was not saying Hackett is the reason EJ sucked. I have never said that. But coaching matters with young Quarterbacks. You do not enter the NFL the QB you will always be. Yea don't worry I answered your "point" No. You really didn't.
Beef Jerky Posted September 3, 2016 Posted September 3, 2016 I repeat... the point was not about EJ. It is about when and how to develop Quarterbacks. The QB needs to develop himself is what I am getting at, all those highly rated NFL QB coaches show you the way to prepare, but only you can retain and learn from it.
GunnerBill Posted September 3, 2016 Posted September 3, 2016 The QB needs to develop himself is what I am getting at, all those highly rated NFL QB coaches show you the way to prepare, but only you can retain and learn from it. Of course. But you have to be given the right direction in the first place. An example might be that David Lee spent OTAs trying to get Cardale to unlearn what he considered bad technique that one of these QB gurus had taught him in the pre-draft process.
nucci Posted September 4, 2016 Posted September 4, 2016 Yeah, I generally agree. Back in the day, it was very rare for Qbs to play right away. Our own franchise qb (Jim Kelly) was like 25 or 26 before he ever took his first NFL snaps. Same thing with Tyrod last year. If we forced Tyrod to play as a rookie, he probably won't be on the Bills right now. That's because he started his pro career in the USFL. He most likely would have been the starter on Bills in '83
mannc Posted September 4, 2016 Posted September 4, 2016 (edited) I've starting that getting drafted high is the worse thing that can happen to a qb. Insane amount of pressure and expectations. Look at how everything just changed for Prescott. It's nuts the pressure we put on these guys.So Dak Prescott was drafted too high? Edited September 4, 2016 by mannc
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