Kaepernick and the National Anthem

[IDBillzFan]

When I go back to Buffalo I am constantly amazed by how racist it is.

 

In what way?

[GG]

Yes, I would. In the thousand year war for sure. I just think that those three have fared much better during my lifetime in my country and in my experience. So it's really the blacks that I will go way out of my way for.

 

For half of my life when I lived back east, and especially Buffalo, it was a black and white thing. The second half, in Phx and L.A. I have no included Latinas and Armenians to the mix. I'm surrounded by them.

 

L.A. is actually an amazing city. People really seem to live pretty well in harmony here. It's obviously got problems like any big city but overall, people get along pretty great here. When I go back to Buffalo I am constantly amazed by how racist it is.

 

Again it's more about the socio economic strata than along racial lines. If you look at the history of racial strife, it's almost always been about economic competition, with the Draft Riots being a particularly dark stain.

 

As for the improved relations regarding the three groups I mentioned, do you think their ascension to acceptance was due to skin color or a complete assimilation into society across all economic strata? If skin color is the determinant, why aren't East Indians included?

[TakeYouToTasker]

 

While those stats are true, it's one of the most racist things you can say and stances you can take. Minorities have every chance to do well and they just don't help themselves. If they would only act like us smarter, more pure, less promiscuous white folk they wouldn't have these problems.

It's racist to say that individuals who don't get married before having children, don't graduate from high school, and don't hold employment are more likely to be not just poor, but inter-generationally poor; that given the increased likelihood of poverty for making those decisions, they aren't good decisions; and that making bad decisions leads to bad outcomes?

 

You'll note that you're the one who said this: "If they would only act like us smarter, more pure, less promiscuous white folk they wouldn't have these problems."

 

What I'm saying, as I've always said, is that individuals are tasked with making the best decisions they can if they want the best outcomes. We don't all start in the same place. Jenna Bush Hager and Sasha Obama both wake up in the morning with opportunities that a white kid in a trailer in rural Appalachia or a black kid in the new urban blight in Detroit will never dream of, but it's still on those two poor kids to make the best decisions that they can to improve their lot. No one can make those decisions for them, and their lot will never improve if they don't, nor will the lot of their future progeny who will have inherited their poverty.

 

But then, I wouldn't expect someone with such an anathema for personal responsibility to understand.

[4merper4mer]

If there were not so many untrustworthy people to do the right thing, then of course it would, and I would not do what I do or think what I think. But there are far, far, far too many people who don't treat minorities fairly. It's a fact and it's not really getting much better. Only incrementally so.

 

I admit it's not fair and what I do is not fair. Always have, not shy about it.

 

I wish others on the opposite side would admit it, too (not you, you have been as reasonable as possible in this debate).

 

We are all 1/7.442B so none of us really moves the needle too much. At least it's a better fraction at 1/330M here at home. IMO we move it is even less when we put people in categories. There is no doubt that blacks have had it harder, but it is also true that socioeconomics have a lot to do with it like GG has stated.

 

I will say that I think skin color on its own has been an element as well...to more of an extent than GG portrays, but I'd agree with him that economics has the power to eventually erase that. People are stupid and reactionary. We just are. We also have eyes and dark skin looks different than light skin. That's easier to see than whether someone is Irish, or Italian. Combine the eyes and tendencies toward being stupid and reactionary and voila....racists.

 

So how does that stop? Well, people try to say they are "color blind". That is a nice goal when they mean it in a figurative sense, but I don't love the term because in a literal sense we aren't color blind and shouldn't need to be. Seeing that someone is black or white does no harm to anyone. Assuming that skin color means low economic status, high economic status, a need to talk down to someone, a need to feel apologetic to someone, or anything else, does harm to everyone. It's not just skin color. There could be two identical twins walking down the street with one dressed like a schlep and the other in a nice suit and I can promise you that people are making judgements. Skin color judgements just happen more frequently so they add up.

 

So...when does the "skin color as a factor" end or at least dissipate greatly? When there isn't a real or perceived correlation between skin color and economic status. Because if economic status disappears, then the other differences will disappear as if by magic.

 

It's interesting that you say that there are many people that can't be trusted to do the right thing. I'd agree. I'd put that number at 100% as a matter of fact. Because nobody does the right thing all the time. And when it comes to skin color, the people that consistently do the wrong thing....most of them anyway....IMO....do it out of weakness and fear.

 

If any one of us could snap our fingers and make all that disappear I'd bet anyone in this discussion, given 5 minutes to think about it, would snap his fingers. Why? 2 reasons: 1. Because we'd want it all to go away. 2. Because it is easy. Sadly, there are some in this world that feed off of it, but I think that number is far far smaller than the number of people that would prefer it gone. I'd easily include the smug Tasker in the better of those categories.

 

So, what I strive to do with my 1/330Mth influence is to treat everyone well. I fail a lot of the time. I don't examine if the person is untrustworthy to do the right thing, because, I won't get that right all the time and I might miss an opportunity the results of which I'll never see. If I'm perfect in my interactions with others I am guaranteed to solve 1/330Mth of the problem. In truth, I'd probably have influenced some people along the way and in return they'd influence others so maybe I gat a few assists on the way to solving 1/50Mth of the problem.

 

1/50Mth isn't very good. But if I thrash away at unsuccessful strategies like trying to force things upon others, or only treat some people well, or assume people are untrustworthy.....again all IMO......I probably don't solve my 1/50Mth and I might even risk making the problem worse.

 

One thing that I think is a bad thing to do, regardless of your stance on any of this, is to be preachy about it and explain why you think your way is the right way....and yet I've gone and done it anyway. See....I told you i fail a lot.

[BringBackOrton]

I was brought up from the time I was born with black people in my house all the time because her best friends were black. It made a profound impact and I never thought black people were any different from me. I spent a lot of time at her school. What she did for a living and thought and how she acted had a huge bearing on me. The biggest influence on my life by far. Maybe you didn't listen to yours.

Except when it came to acting against card carrying racists. What would your mother think?

[Kelly the Dog]

 

Again it's more about the socio economic strata than along racial lines. If you look at the history of racial strife, it's almost always been about economic competition, with the Draft Riots being a particularly dark stain.

 

As for the improved relations regarding the three groups I mentioned, do you think their ascension to acceptance was due to skin color or a complete assimilation into society across all economic strata? If skin color is the determinant, why aren't East Indians included?

Actually in the draft riots, the blacks got the way worse of it, way worse than the Irish. I just did a project on it and had to do a lot of research.

 

I actually agree with a lot of the socio-economic stuff. And I surely know and see endless amounts of minorities that don't take responsibility. It's awful and they should be called out on it. The mother of the kid I took care of was the most stereotypical bad mom you could imagine. And the crappy blowhard liberals spend way too much time and money on handouts. I totally agree with that. It's inarguable. But that is overridden IMO by the long-standing and still strong endemic racism in this country, especially against black people.

Except when it came to acting against card carrying racists. What would your mother think?

I'm not sure. She would likely say "Why are you still friends with him?" and then we would have a good discussion on the pros and cons. It's not like he's my best friend, I have just known him since high school and spent a lot of time with him over the years because I happen to have kept the same group of 15 or so friends for 40 years.

 

None of you self-righteous blowhards, living 3000 miles away from someone, and not having specific information and evidence about times and names, etc, who found out a friend of yours did a racist scumbag thing, would turn this guy in. No one.

 

Lying Tasker said he doesn't even know anyone who has been racist (because if they were he wouldn't know them anymore). That kills me. Although perhaps with his definition, where nothing is racist, he wouldn't.

 

In what way?

People just hanging out having noral conversations think nothing of saying "Those fukking n*ggers." You go to bars or restaurants and it's pretty segregated. Neighborhoods are still pretty segregated. There are thousands of exceptions of course. But the suburbs are still very white there for the most part. It's the language and the general dismissal that stands out to me. I know dozens of people who have moved away who think the same thing. They can't believe it whenever they go back.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Kelly the Dog

[IDBillzFan]

You go to bars or restaurants and it's pretty segregated. Neighborhoods are still pretty segregated. There are thousands of exceptions of course.

 

It's kind a funny because where I grew up, there was one black family. The father was a mechanic at my father's car dealership. He had a son and a daughter. I never saw or experienced anything consider racist from anyone in the 8 years I grew up in that town.

 

Then I went to college in Rochester, and while there were black students everywhere, I never gave it a thought until about two months into my first semester. All the freshman were just randomly assigned roommates. No rhyme or reason. They just put guys with guys, and over the first month or two, you would start making friends and people would start swapping roommates. By the third month, somehow, an entire wing of one dorm became almost exclusively black. No one put them there. No one assigned them there. They just all moved there. On their own.

 

So while I appreciate your idea that some neighborhoods are segregated, you have to ask yourself...who put them there?

[Kelly the Dog]

 

It's kind a funny because where I grew up, there was one black family. The father was a mechanic at my father's car dealership. He had a son and a daughter. I never saw or experienced anything consider racist from anyone in the 8 years I grew up in that town.

 

Then I went to college in Rochester, and while there were black students everywhere, I never gave it a thought until about two months into my first semester. All the freshman were just randomly assigned roommates. No rhyme or reason. They just put guys with guys, and over the first month or two, you would start making friends and people would start swapping roommates. By the third month, somehow, an entire wing of one dorm became almost exclusively black. No one put them there. No one assigned them there. They just all moved there. On their own.

 

So while I appreciate your idea that some neighborhoods are segregated, you have to ask yourself...who put them there?

If I were you, I would ask myself why didn't the black kids feel comfortable with the white kids... and only feel comfortable around their own kind? Because the black kids thought they were superior? Because the white kids didn't treat them differently at all and were actually really kind to them, the black kids were just racist elitists? Ummm... no.

[Joe Miner]

Actually in the draft riots, the blacks got the way worse of it, way worse than the Irish. I just did a project on it and had to do a lot of research.

 

I actually agree with a lot of the socio-economic stuff. And I surely know and see endless amounts of minorities that don't take responsibility. It's awful and they should be called out on it. The mother of the kid I took care of was the most stereotypical bad mom you could imagine. And the crappy blowhard liberals spend way too much time and money on handouts. I totally agree with that. It's inarguable. But that is overridden IMO by the long-standing and still strong endemic racism in this country, especially against black people.

 

I'm not sure. She would likely say "Why are you still friends with him?" and then we would have a good discussion on the pros and cons. It's not like he's my best friend, I have just known him since high school and spent a lot of time with him over the years because I happen to have kept the same group of 15 or so friends for 40 years.

 

None of you self-righteous blowhards, living 3000 miles away from someone, and not having specific information and evidence about times and names, etc, who found out a friend of yours did a racist scumbag thing, would turn this guy in. No one.

 

Lying Tasker said he doesn't even know anyone who has been racist (because if they were he wouldn't know them anymore). That kills me. Although perhaps with his definition, where nothing is racist, he wouldn't.

 

People just hanging out having noral conversations think nothing of saying "Those fukking n*ggers." You go to bars or restaurants and it's pretty segregated. Neighborhoods are still pretty segregated. There are thousands of exceptions of course. But the suburbs are still very white there for the most part. It's the language and the general dismissal that stands out to me. I know dozens of people who have moved away who think the same thing. They can't believe it whenever they go back.

I remember when Meathead argued that he could say racist things because he !@#$ed black women.

 

Not much of a difference to your argument of being allowed to believe racist things because you grew up helping black people.

[Chef Jim]

If I were you, I would ask myself why didn't the black kids feel comfortable with the white kids... and only feel comfortable around their own kind? Because the black kids thought they were superior? Because the white kids didn't treat them differently at all and were actually really kind to them, the black kids were just racist elitists? Ummm... no.

 

Did you ever think that people like to hang out with people like them? We had no blacks in my school but the jocks hung with the jocks, stoners with the stoners, AV club with Tom etc etc.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

Did you ever think that people like to hang out with people like them? We had no blacks in my school but the jocks hung with the jocks, stoners with the stoners, AV club with Tom etc etc.

I don't think that is a fair comparison. Of course those people hang out with others like them.

 

In fact, where jocks are concerned, sports are one of the few things that transcend race. You really don't see many racial issues these days within high school, college or pro locker rooms. One of the only things like it. Sports don't get enough credit for that.

 

I live in Los Angeles. While sure there are some long standing ethnic, Korean, black, Hispanic, etc. neighborhoods for the most part people of all colors live in every area outside of maybe Beverly Hills and Malibu and that is decidedly a socio-economic thing. The vast, vast majority of bars and restaurants are not predominately black or brown. They exist of course, but people don't see color in this city anywhere close to how I see it in Buffalo. Perhaps they just have to here but I don't think so. People in general seem to be more tolerant in big cities where there is a lot of diversity.

 

Most everyone I know from Buffalo thinks Buffalo is pretty racist, even the ones that are.

[4merper4mer]

 

Did you ever think that people like to hang out with people like them? We had no blacks in my school but the jocks hung with the jocks, stoners with the stoners, AV club with Tom etc etc.

The stoners might not remember who they hung out with.

[IDBillzFan]

If I were you, I would ask myself why didn't the black kids feel comfortable with the white kids... and only feel comfortable around their own kind? Because the black kids thought they were superior? Because the white kids didn't treat them differently at all and were actually really kind to them, the black kids were just racist elitists? Ummm... no.

 

 

We were in a Pittsford college dorm near Thirsty's, for crying out loud. Everyone got along fine. Maybe they felt more comfortable around each other, but to think they all cowered to one part of the floor because the white kids treated them differently is ridiculous.

 

I appreciate your slice of this, but there was never a time I was in college where anyone ever did anything but hang and have a good time with everyone, regardless of skin color.

 

Except the French majors. Everyone hated the French majors.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

 

We were in a Pittsford college dorm near Thirsty's, for crying out loud. Everyone got along fine. Maybe they felt more comfortable around each other, but to think they all cowered to one part of the floor because the white kids treated them differently is ridiculous.

 

I appreciate your slice of this, but there was never a time I was in college where anyone ever did anything but hang and have a good time with everyone, regardless of skin color.

 

Except the French majors. Everyone hated the French majors.

Oh I didn't mean that people there treated them differently or in the first few weeks/months. I meant what they had already experienced for their first 18 or so years, wherever they grew up. Not all, of course, and it's surely possible that in this particular incident it is just as Chef James says, just alike people liking alike people.

 

I imagine the Black French Majors Club had only one member. I wouldn't even help the Black French Major out.

[4merper4mer]

 

 

I imagine the Black French Majors Club had only one member. I wouldn't even help the Black French Major out.

 

 

I'm glad too. Or else you be on here constantly bragging about your "friendship" with Pierre Garcon.

[GG]

Actually in the draft riots, the blacks got the way worse of it, way worse than the Irish. I just did a project on it and had to do a lot of research.

 

I actually agree with a lot of the socio-economic stuff. And I surely know and see endless amounts of minorities that don't take responsibility. It's awful and they should be called out on it. The mother of the kid I took care of was the most stereotypical bad mom you could imagine. And the crappy blowhard liberals spend way too much time and money on handouts. I totally agree with that. It's inarguable. But that is overridden IMO by the long-standing and still strong endemic racism in this country, especially against black people.

 

 

In this case, like in the thread, you're focused on the outcome, not the cause of the riots. You know very well that the main reason for the Irish rioting was the fear that free blacks would take their jobs at the bottom economic rung.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

In this case, like in the thread, you're focused on the outcome, not the cause of the riots. You know very well that the main reason for the Irish rioting was the fear that free blacks would take their jobs at the bottom economic rung.

Yeah, another example of white entitlement. We're entitled to all the schitty jobs not you lousy negroes.

 

Now THAT was a socio-economic issue at heart more than a racial one of course. All you needed was $300 or pay someone to take your place.

[BringBackOrton]

I'm not sure. She would likely say "Why are you still friends with him?" and then we would have a good discussion on the pros and cons. It's not like he's my best friend, I have just known him since high school and spent a lot of time with him over the years because I happen to have kept the same group of 15 or so friends for 40 years.

 

None of you self-righteous blowhards, living 3000 miles away from someone, and not having specific information and evidence about times and names, etc, who found out a friend of yours did a racist scumbag thing, would turn this guy in. No one.

 

Lying Tasker said he doesn't even know anyone who has been racist (because if they were he wouldn't know them anymore). That kills me. Although perhaps with his definition, where nothing is racist, he wouldn't.

You say this, but I'm not so sure.

 

We both know right and wrong, I'm assuming. Your rationalizing is just that. Your friend, I'm afraid, is wrong.

 

Whether or not I'd choose to defend such a person, especially when they attacked something so close to my heart, such as you with racism and black folks, is immaterial. The choice would still be wrong, indubitably.

 

And for you to have such a self-righteous attitude about how much you've done for race relations, with such an ugly mark under your belt, is a tough look. The phrase for someone who talks a big game, but chooses letting overt racism slide because it might cause some temporary discomfort is probably a "self-righteous blowhard." You're projecting.

 

I can say that I'd hope me, and my children wouldn't make the decision you made. Because I'd hope we were better people than that. That we took our principles more seriously than that. And that we knew a wrong decision with a "yeah, but...." is still wrong.

Edited September 7, 2017 by jmc12290

[GG]

Yeah, another example of white entitlement. We're entitled to all the schitty jobs not you lousy negroes.

 

Now THAT was a socio-economic issue at heart more than a racial one of course. All you needed was $300 or pay someone to take your place.

 

But it's also another glaring example of a socio-economic battle that would be framed on 100% racial lines.

 

That's why we are saying there are a lot more factors involved than simply the color of the skin. When you take time to get to the root causes, it's not as simple as cops having a target on black lives. It's why I agree with Jim Brown's work a lot more than I do with Kaepernick's

[Kelly the Dog]

 

But it's also another glaring example of a socio-economic battle that would be framed on 100% racial lines.

 

That's why we are saying there are a lot more factors involved than simply the color of the skin. When you take time to get to the root causes, it's not as simple as cops having a target on black lives. It's why I agree with Jim Brown's work a lot more than I do with Kaepernick's

I agree with all of that. Jim Brown is a very smart and interesting guy, although anyone could take issue with some of the things he has done and said. I always liked Jim Brown. I was not in favor of what Kaepernick did. I understand it, I just don't think he should have done it.

 

In general, however, people's know-nothing-about him's reaction to it showed more about them than him. He's a very interesting and smart, thinking guy, too. And again, I was against what he did from the start and still am.

 

And of course there are a lot more factors than race. I don't think it's all race. I think a large portion of it is.