Is Cyrus Kouandjio Still a Bust?

[purple haze]

I just dont understand this line of thinking

 

If Kujo looks decent then why wouldnt WE keep him......where is our OT depth to do that?

 

Kujo has not done squat.....if he starts playing decent we should not assume he walks.....he isnt gonna get big money on the market and he would be worth more to us then another NFL team.

If he plays well as a LT he won't get big money, but someone very well could pay him a lot more than the Bills would as a backup. LT are too needed.

[Augie]

There's a difference between "bust" and disappointment. Mike Williams was a bust. (I won't add more names as it's too painful!) I'm still hoping he finds his place.

[Kirby Jackson]

There's a difference between "bust" and disappointment. Mike Williams was a bust. (I won't add more names as it's too painful!) I'm still hoping he finds his place.

I think that this is well said Augie. A 2nd rounder that becomes a decent depth player is a disappointment but not a bust. You hope for Cordy Glenn, you are okay with Robert Woods, you wished for more from Kuoandjio and you hate the Torrell Troupe pick.

[Augie]

The encouraging part with Kujo is the trend arrow is pointing up. If he can actually contribute effectively, it's better than we expected not too long ago.

[Kirby Jackson]

The encouraging part with Kujo is the trend arrow is pointing up. If he can actually contribute effectively, it's better than we expected not too long ago.

It's better than I expected now, certainly agree with your point. He went from a definite cut to a roster lock IMO. That says a lot for him.

[John from Riverside]

If he plays well as a LT he won't get big money, but someone very well could pay him a lot more than the Bills would as a backup. LT are too needed.

No doubt

 

but

 

If we have any kind of luck (I know....I know) Kujo doesnt see the field much therefore not a lot of tape except for pre season for potential suitors.

 

It could end up being a cheap resign contract for us.

[atlbillsfan1975]

No I would not.....because we might have a viable backup LT

 

What are we gonna trade him for? A draft pick?

You have a back up LT for 2017 and then he would be gone.

If Whaley could get a 2nd for him and something else he does that deal all day.

 

I'm ready for the season! This thread is why the offseason is great!

[Nihilarian]

There's a difference between "bust" and disappointment. Mike Williams was a bust. (I won't add more names as it's too painful!) I'm still hoping he finds his place.

Mike D Williams wasn't a "bust" as the guy played RT for 5 years in the NFL and started 42 games for Buffalo at RT. The average lifespan of an NFL player is a mere three years.

 

So far after two seasons Kouandjio has started in only two NFL games and didn't play well enough to retain his position and I wouldn't call him a "bust" either....just yet. He still needs to prove he can be effective at tackle during regular season games.

 

 

Aaron Maybin was drafted as an 11th overall pick and was specifically a pass rusher who didn't attain one sack for the Buffalo Bills in his two seasons and only started one game in his four-year NFL career. Now that's a bust!

 

It wasn't the fault of the player that the team that drafted them didn't evaluate them properly! Maybin was a one year wonder in college and had red flags popping up all over. Clearly, some were smitten by highlight film. I know a few will cry about hindsight but Clay Matthews was drafted 26th in 2009 and Brian Orakpo was drafted 16th that year. I highly doubt this current scouting dept, GM would get things that wrong about a defensive player.

[eball]

Has the all important question of "bust or not" been answered yet? Geesh.

 

Let's just acknowledge the guy seems to have improved and hope he can serve an important role as a swing tackle and move on, people. I think it's been well enough established that he shouldn't have been taken in the 2nd round; is a label necessary?

[Bill from NYC]

Has the all important question of "bust or not" been answered yet? Geesh.

 

Let's just acknowledge the guy seems to have improved and hope he can serve an important role as a swing tackle and move on, people. I think it's been well enough established that he shouldn't have been taken in the 2nd round; is a label necessary?

Fair enough. A GM obviously can't hit home runs every time at bat. I also commend the strategy of taking blockers early on.

 

I am however quite curious to know what factored into Whaley making this selection. As a Tide Fan, even I knew he was hurt, and that there were far better blockers on that very team, let alone the entire NCAA. Not that I have a right to know mind you, I just cannot and never could understand it.

 

Btw Kujo is, and as far as I know always was a great kid. I would love for him to suddenly be healthy and a star NFL left tackle.

[dave mcbride]

I like Manny just fine.....he was absolutely awful in Schwartz D and arrived in Buffalo a reserve from Cinci........but he is excellent in Rex D......I don't see a similar fit for him anywhere else in the league.

 

Said it before, Bills second round picks in years they didn't have a first round pick:

 

Thurman Thomas

Sam Cowart

Roscoe Parrish

Ronald Darby

 

A HOF'er......a DPOY caliber All Pro in Cowart and a legit DROY candidate. 3 grand slams in 4 at bats.

 

I don't think it is any coincidence that in years where the team doesn't have a first round pick it's much harder for the organization to spend months building a draft strategy around patching holes.

 

The pressure is palpably lessened and it's simply easier to stick to that board.

 

The board wins.

Yup. Good post.

[NoSaint]

I am however quite curious to know what factored into Whaley making this selection. As a Tide Fan, even I knew he was hurt, and that there were far better blockers on that very team, let alone the entire NCAA.

well, i think part of it is obviously that he fell into the second round. so obviously there were better blockers out there. even his own team sent like 3-4 first rounders over a short stretch there (couple years prior, couple post).

 

Like you mention, he seems like a good kid, has talent that could transfer to the NFL... he was high potential, with some risk due to being less polished and the knee. some people may have flip flopped him on the board with another of the second round tackles, but he wasnt out of place where he went.

[Nihilarian]

That is why I used the Texans as an example. Brian Hoyer, Ryan Mallett, TJ Yates and Brandon Weeden started for them last year. It is no worse than the Cowboys.

 

It is easy to MMQB it with the depth of WR. I thought (and still think) that Watkins was the best player on their board between 2013-2015 drafts. I have zero issue going to get an elite playmaker. He is as talented as anyone in the league. I loved the move at the time and do not dislike it at all now. They could have easily included their 2014 2nd instead of their 2015 1st. If you only subtracted Kuoandjio and added a 2015 1st would you like it? You can't analyze things in hindsight otherwise Tom Brady would have went before the 6th.

 

The left side of the line is good and the right suspect. We are in agreement. The Bills led the league in rushing last year with the same 5 guys. In addition, they had time to throw the ball down the field as well as anyone. I have no issues with the line play. The Bills want to run the ball and throw it down the field. These guys have proven capable of getting that done.

 

To the 3rd bolded point if Watkins or Taylor get hurt it will be much more damaging than if Incognito gets hurt. It speaks to my exact point. Game results are swayed by a guard (even a great one) like they are by an elite playmaker. The Bills will game plan ways to get the ball in his hands on screens (watch the highlights of Sammy vs. OSU in the Orange Bowl) and other quick hitters. They can move him to the slot, put him in motion, etc... He beats his man off the line every single time. You don't need long to get him the ball because he is always open. They can get him the ball still if the right side doesn't hold up. I am not sure though why we should assume that they wont be able to hold up to get the ball down the field when they were as good as anyone in the league at it last year?

 

The last bold is my point!! You can scheme up a good OL (look what Kromer has done in his career). Tell me where Bushrod, Strief, Jahri Evans and Carl Nicks were drafted. Their OL was good because of the scheme not the draft position. In terms of the DL I agree as well. That is why I have been critical of Rex. Why you would pay Mario, Hughes, Dareus and Kyle and try to trick people by dropping them into coverage at times is beyond me. Schwartz did the EXACT opposite. He let the talent play and they excelled. If you are lacking talent (as the Bills are now with the injuries) you need to get creative to create pressure.

 

The Broncos had the 16th best OL last year, the Patriots 23rd in 2014 and the Seahawks 27 in 2013. I did not go back further but those are your last 3 Super Bowl Champs. You don't win on the OL. You win stopping the pass, creating turnovers and making plays.

In regards to the Watkins trade up in using three draft picks on one player when the team needed more than an elite WR was foolish in my view. Mostly because the team didn't already have an established franchise QB just yet and didn't even have a solid offensive line to protect that young QB.

 

(I'm not even going to go into who the best receivers were in a 2014 star studded WR draft class or the injury issues. Or the fact that the team would have gotten that first pick wrong by taking TE Eric Ebron had they been unable to make the trade to draft Watkins. Which also speaks about the offensive talent evaluation by this teams scouts / GM.)

 

 

Simply put, to me moving up in the 2014 draft to expend three picks for a WR was like putting the cart before the horse in that the team had so many other holes than just needing an elite WR. In 2014 it was probably for the best that EJ was benched after a few games because I doubt a 2nd year QB would get the team to a 9-7 record playing behind the 30th worst ranked offensive line in the league and it was graded as the very worst line for most of the season. Erik Pears conversion to RG was an unmitigated disaster as he graded at a negative 25 and Henderson at RT graded even worse.

 

Prior to the 2014 NFL draft, the Buffalo Bills were the #2 team in the NFL in rushing yards and #1 team in rushing attempts and yet had the 20th ranked offense that couldn't maintain ball possession (28th) even with all that running. The 2013 Bills were 25th in three and out percentage and got the nickname the "hurry up and punt" offense. That season the Bills offense was pretty bad in being 23rd in points for and 19th in yards. The team finished at 6-10.

That 2013 Bills offensive line was ranked around 22nd overall and had a few stinkers on that line and most notably Colin Brown who started five games and the backup center in Doug Legursky who started in the remaining 11 games at LG. Upgrades were needed for the line considering the team was starting a QB going into his second season and the Bills looked determined to remedy the line situation in the 2014 draft in using three of the seven draft picks on offensive linemen.

 

 

Just because the team is the league leader in rushing all season it doesn't necessarily mean the team has an effective offense in every area. The 2013 & 2015 Bills put up some really good rushing numbers and for different reasons. In 2015 the leading rusher was McCoy at 895 yards and in 2nd place was the QB Taylor with 568 yards rushing and the fat guy the team just cut had 517 yards and the most rushing TD's with 7. Tyrod Taylor running the ball when there was nobody open or about to take a sack is a big reason why the 2015 line looked so good and the rushing stats looked so good. The 2015 Bills offense led the league in big plays but were also 31st in three and out percentage.

 

 

In regards to the bolded. The 2016 Bills offensive line is not the same as the 2015 line as veteran OG Kraig Urbik is no longer there to fill in when someone suffers an injury or plays poorly. Miller at RG in 12 games played very poorly at times in both pass and run blocking and Henderson who started 10 games in 2015 isn't starting at RT as Mills is now starting. The quality of the backups remains to be seen at OG, OC, and even RT. The right side of the line and backup players are very much in question in my view.

 

 

The line didn't even start to look like a decent NFL line until Rex Ryan vouched for all-pro LG Richie Incognito and I would argue that losing Incognito would have a very detrimental effect as the team doesn't have backup talent even close to Incognito's talent level that I'm aware of and Taylor would then have great difficulty in making plays of any sort running for his life all game. The Bills are going to want Tyrod to develop into more of an elite pocket passer or another Russell Wilson and yet things could go the other way like Kaepernick and RG3. So, maintaining a solid line to protect the QB is extremely important in my view.

 

 

Interesting to note that you cite a veteran QB with one of the quickest releases in the NFL which can negate a pass rush and the other is known scrambler who can mitigate a pass rush with his legs like Taylor.

 

 

Lastly, in my opinion, you don't win games with a bad offensive line along with a young QB attempting to develop properly into a pocket thrower as that is the quickest path to ruin a decent QB prospect.

[thebandit27]

 

 

 

Just because the team is the league leader in rushing all season it doesn't necessarily mean the team has an effective offense in every area. The 2013 & 2015 Bills put up some really good rushing numbers and for different reasons. In 2015 the leading rusher was McCoy at 895 yards and in 2nd place was the QB Taylor with 568 yards rushing and the fat guy the team just cut had 517 yards and the most rushing TD's with 7. Tyrod Taylor running the ball when there was nobody open or about to take a sack is a big reason why the 2015 line looked so good and the rushing stats looked so good. The 2015 Bills offense led the league in big plays but were also 31st in three and out percentage.

 

 

 

This is a myth.

 

I've posted the stats before, but I'll do so again for the context of your discussion with Kirby...

 

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/185916-bills-working-on-extensions-for-gilmore-maybe-tyrod/page-11?do=findComment&comment=3944423

 

When you remove QB rushing yards for every team from the equation (to normalize the data), the Bills rank 6th in the NFL in total rushing yards and 1st in yards/carry.

 

They also allowed the 10th-fewest QB hits in the NFL:

 

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=1&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_QBHIT&tabSeq=2&season=2015&role=TM&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&qualified=false

 

The OL was not only not bad, they were, in fact, very good.

 

The biggest reason for the team's high percentage of 3-and-outs is that the QB struggled with his intermediate passing game. Some of that is inexperience (which presented itself in his inefficiency to get off his 1st target, his relative failure to see the middle of the field, his quickness to abandon clean pockets out the back instead of climbing to safety, and his league-worst snap-to-release time), some of it is a lack of quality receiving targets with short-area quickness (Sammy and Shady have it, but were primarily used in other roles).

[hondo in seattle]

 

This is a myth.

 

I've posted the stats before, but I'll do so again for the context of your discussion with Kirby...

 

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/185916-bills-working-on-extensions-for-gilmore-maybe-tyrod/page-11?do=findComment&comment=3944423

 

When you remove QB rushing yards for every team from the equation (to normalize the data), the Bills rank 6th in the NFL in total rushing yards and 1st in yards/carry.

 

They also allowed the 10th-fewest QB hits in the NFL:

 

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=1&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_QBHIT&tabSeq=2&season=2015&role=TM&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&qualified=false

 

The OL was not only not bad, they were, in fact, very good.

 

The biggest reason for the team's high percentage of 3-and-outs is that the QB struggled with his intermediate passing game. Some of that is inexperience (which presented itself in his inefficiency to get off his 1st target, his relative failure to see the middle of the field, his quickness to abandon clean pockets out the back instead of climbing to safety, and his league-worst snap-to-release time), some of it is a lack of quality receiving targets with short-area quickness (Sammy and Shady have it, but were primarily used in other roles).

 

Was the O Line very good or is Roman good at making O Lines look good?

 

Personally, I think it's the latter though you have to give the OL credit for executing the blocks Roman asked them to perform.

 

Outside Incognito and maybe Cordy, we don't have an offensive lineman who will overwhelm his opponent in a one-on-one battle. In short yardage situations, we don't get a lot of push.

 

But Roman's plays don't usually require offensive linemen to be road-graders - just in the right place doing the right thing at the right time.

[Kirby Jackson]

1) In regards to the Watkins trade up in using three draft picks on one player when the team needed more than an elite WR was foolish in my view. Mostly because the team didn't already have an established franchise QB just yet and didn't even have a solid offensive line to protect that young QB.

 

(I'm not even going to go into who the best receivers were in a 2014 star studded WR draft class or the injury issues. Or the fact that the team would have gotten that first pick wrong by taking TE Eric Ebron had they been unable to make the trade to draft Watkins. Which also speaks about the offensive talent evaluation by this teams scouts / GM.)

 

 

Simply put, to me moving up in the 2014 draft to expend three picks for a WR was like putting the cart before the horse in that the team had so many other holes than just needing an elite WR. In 2014 it was probably for the best that EJ was benched after a few games because I doubt a 2nd year QB would get the team to a 9-7 record playing behind the 30th worst ranked offensive line in the league and it was graded as the very worst line for most of the season. Erik Pears conversion to RG was an unmitigated disaster as he graded at a negative 25 and Henderson at RT graded even worse.

 

Prior to the 2014 NFL draft, the Buffalo Bills were the #2 team in the NFL in rushing yards and #1 team in rushing attempts and yet had the 20th ranked offense that couldn't maintain ball possession (28th) even with all that running. The 2013 Bills were 25th in three and out percentage and got the nickname the "hurry up and punt" offense. That season the Bills offense was pretty bad in being 23rd in points for and 19th in yards. The team finished at 6-10.

That 2013 Bills offensive line was ranked around 22nd overall and had a few stinkers on that line and most notably Colin Brown who started five games and the backup center in Doug Legursky who started in the remaining 11 games at LG. Upgrades were needed for the line considering the team was starting a QB going into his second season and the Bills looked determined to remedy the line situation in the 2014 draft in using three of the seven draft picks on offensive linemen.

 

 

2) Just because the team is the league leader in rushing all season it doesn't necessarily mean the team has an effective offense in every area. The 2013 & 2015 Bills put up some really good rushing numbers and for different reasons. In 2015 the leading rusher was McCoy at 895 yards and in 2nd place was the QB Taylor with 568 yards rushing and the fat guy the team just cut had 517 yards and the most rushing TD's with 7. Tyrod Taylor running the ball when there was nobody open or about to take a sack is a big reason why the 2015 line looked so good and the rushing stats looked so good. The 2015 Bills offense led the league in big plays but were also 31st in three and out percentage.

 

 

3) In regards to the bolded. The 2016 Bills offensive line is not the same as the 2015 line as veteran OG Kraig Urbik is no longer there to fill in when someone suffers an injury or plays poorly. Miller at RG in 12 games played very poorly at times in both pass and run blocking and Henderson who started 10 games in 2015 isn't starting at RT as Mills is now starting. The quality of the backups remains to be seen at OG, OC, and even RT. The right side of the line and backup players are very much in question in my view.

 

 

The line didn't even start to look like a decent NFL line until Rex Ryan vouched for all-pro LG Richie Incognito and I would argue that losing Incognito would have a very detrimental effect as the team doesn't have backup talent even close to Incognito's talent level that I'm aware of and Taylor would then have great difficulty in making plays of any sort running for his life all game. The Bills are going to want Tyrod to develop into more of an elite pocket passer or another Russell Wilson and yet things could go the other way like Kaepernick and RG3. 4) So, maintaining a solid line to protect the QB is extremely important in my view.

 

 

Interesting to note that you cite a veteran QB with one of the quickest releases in the NFL which can negate a pass rush and the other is known scrambler who can mitigate a pass rush with his legs like Taylor.

 

 

Lastly, in my opinion, you don't win games with a bad offensive line along with a young QB attempting to develop properly into a pocket thrower as that is the quickest path to ruin a decent QB prospect.

We disagree on point 1 which is fine. There is a lot of disagreement on the topic. I would rather have Watkins than Justin Gilbert and Cameron Erving. I would rather have Julio Jones than 2 firsts. Watkins floor was so high which is why I liked it. If his career was an absolute disaster he was a 1,000 yard receiver. His ceiling is closer to 2,000. You can argue that you need the QB first but I am never passing on that kind of talent because the qb isn't yet there. You get the best players when you have a chance.

 

The 2nd point Bandit eloquently covered above. 1st in YPC without QB factored in.

 

To the 3rd I agree that Urbik was an important part. Henderson was outplayed by Mills which is why he stuck. Henderson was not healthy though. They have the exact same tackles with one (CK) that has CLEARLY improved. The tackle situation should be better. Groy has had his moments and Velasco is experienced. Can one of those 2 be the swing guy on the inside equal to Urbik? We will see. By the same token there is no reason to expect that Miller will not improve in year 2.

 

We agree on 4. I never said that maintaining a good line (and Kromer) isn't very important. You just don't need to spend 1st round picks to do so. The whole point was that you take guys that can effect games ON THEIR OWN in the 1st round, especially in the top 15 picks.

 

The Bills line is very good right now. I believe that they were a top 10 unit last year and appear to have improved some. They are good enough to run the ball and to throw the ball down the field. That is the Bills offense so it is nice that they are able to get that done.

 

Was the O Line very good or is Roman good at making O Lines look good?

 

Personally, I think it's the latter though you have to give the OL credit for executing the blocks Roman asked them to perform.

 

Outside Incognito and maybe Cordy, we don't have an offensive lineman who will overwhelm his opponent in a one-on-one battle. In short yardage situations, we don't get a lot of push.

 

But Roman's plays don't usually require offensive linemen to be road-graders - just in the right place doing the right thing at the right time.

I would say both but more Kromer than anyone. He is a magician.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Kirby Jackson

[Santana]

I think it was more or less just putting him in the right position. He can't play the right side of the line but more than that players really just need time and consistency in their developmental years. As fans, a lot of times we expect results from players unjustly. Most players need a good 2-4yrs to actually develop into pro-caliber guys. He'll pan out.

[thebandit27]

 

Was the O Line very good or is Roman good at making O Lines look good?

 

Personally, I think it's the latter though you have to give the OL credit for executing the blocks Roman asked them to perform.

 

Outside Incognito and maybe Cordy, we don't have an offensive lineman who will overwhelm his opponent in a one-on-one battle. In short yardage situations, we don't get a lot of push.

 

But Roman's plays don't usually require offensive linemen to be road-graders - just in the right place doing the right thing at the right time.

 

I think that what you may mean, and please by all means correct me if I'm misinterpreting, is that the OL isn't overly talented, which is a statement with which I'd agree.

 

Roman's scheme plays to their strengths for sure, but he can't make them execute properly.

 

So yes, Roman's scheme helps tremendously, and the OL was quite good as a result of their ability to execute that scheme.

[NoSaint]

 

I think that what you may mean, and please by all means correct me if I'm misinterpreting, is that the OL isn't overly talented, which is a statement with which I'd agree.

 

Roman's scheme plays to their strengths for sure, but he can't make them execute properly.

 

So yes, Roman's scheme helps tremendously, and the OL was quite good as a result of their ability to execute that scheme.

and frankly, does it matter much? if we were getting top half (or top 10) line play, do we care whether coach or raw talent was driving it? as long as we can maintain it - im happy.

[John from Riverside]

and frankly, does it matter much? if we were getting top half (or top 10) line play, do we care whether coach or raw talent was driving it? as long as we can maintain it - im happy.

Bingo

 

Way overanalysis guys.....As long as running lanes are opening and Tyrod has the time to go to his second check.....consistantly.....then there really is nothing to complain about regardless of who's name is on the back of the OL jersey.

 

I finding it interesting that they might have found a little backup something in Groy