Is Cyrus Kouandjio Still a Bust?

[White Linen]

 

I have no issue with the position either...........I have issue with drafting for need when needs change significantly from year to year.

 

Will Shaq and RR be better than a guy like Manny Lawson who....to be kind......probably couldn't start for another team in the league?

 

If not then they will be outright busts.

 

I've never predicted that. I don't even want to think about that. When you aim low to start you hope to at least hit the target.

 

The question for me is will these guys be the kind of impactful players that can transition from one scheme to the next if necessary and still be impactful.

 

I don't think Shaq is the kind of guy that can be a 10 sack guy in a one gap 4-3 attack. I don't think Ragnuts would cut it as an every down 4-3 MLB.

 

I could be wrong.......but that's what I see. Limited players who were drafted as much because they seemed closer to ready than other rookies might be as because of the potential impact they can have.

 

It amazes me that you think your smarter than Whaley and Monos.

[Nihilarian]

I just look at the OL (listed earlier) and it further illustrates my point. None of them transformed their teams, they just can't by the nature of the job. QB goes without saying but WR, CB and pass rushers can change the face of your team. They can do things on their own.

 

Watkins is a great example. The Bills receivers outside of Watkins are not good. The entire offense is different with him on the field. He keeps safeties from the LOS and commands an extra body. That opens things up underneath, for the other receivers and for the running game. He effects the entire game just by being out there. I think that Tyron Smith is the best OL in football. If you are the defense you can slide your best pass rusher away from him. You can make him play one on one with Lorenzo Alexander for the whole game. He may do great against Alexander but he isn't stopping the pass rush. He can only do his assignment.

Yea well, I look at a player like LG Richie Incognito and saw that he not only transformed that left side into a solid area of the team but that he helped make his teammates on either side of him look and play better. So many Bills fans clamoring that they want to see Tyrod Taylor develop into that elite QB and that simply might not happen if his line doesn't protect him properly on both sides. Like you infer, you need both sides of the line to be solid or defenses will make you pay.

 

I kept reading in this forum for years Bills fans regurgitating what they heard from Buddy Nix in that OG's are a dime a dozen and you can find quality guards later in the draft. That any OT can be successfully moved to play guard which is something that Erik Pears disproved when he was moved from RT to RG and became the very worst OG in the league.

 

 

I would spend a top 15 pick on another Incognito and the Cowboys used the 16th pick on Zack Martin who became an all-pro RG in his first year. That team seems to know talent when they see it and go after it. They beat the Bills to La'el Collins and I can only dream of how good the Bills O-line would have been last year with that kid pancaking players for Buffalo at OG.

 

To me, protecting the most important position on both sides of the ball is worthy of a first round or even a top 10 pick. That is if you are 100% certain that the scouting dept knows what they are doing and that doesn't always appear to be the case in Buffalo. It was Rex Ryan that vouched for Incognito and went after Collins by dining with him to get him to sign with the Bills.

 

Is this the same team that thought Demetress Bell would make a solid starting LT or Mansfield Wrotto, Cornell Green, Cordaro Howard would make a decent RT. No, it isn't! But they are still very far from the Dallas Cowboys scouting dept from what I see in regards to offensive line talent evaluation.

 

 

To Kouandjio, It's good to see a young player develop into a better player and just how good we won't really know until we see how he does after the regular season games start.

[mannc]

 

It amazes me that you think your smarter than Whaley and Monos.

Right, because Whaley's and Monos's record of NFL success is unparalleled, they are pretty much beyond reproach. In fact, I think TSW should delete all posts that question their draft strategies, and you would make the perfect censor to enforce that policy.

[Maury Ballstein]

Right, because Whaley's and Monos's record of NFL success is unparalleled, they are pretty much beyond reproach. In fact, I think TSW should delete all posts that question their draft strategies, and you would make the perfect censor to enforce that policy.

Captain hot takes is back.

[machine gun kelly]

Someone commented from the Tasker thread Kuondjo may have looked better on the left due to the previous injury to the knee he could push off better to the left. It's better to have a back up that can play swing, but if he really is a solid back up LT, then they'll probably keep him.

[White Linen]

Right, because Whaley's and Monos's record of NFL success is unparalleled, they are pretty much beyond reproach. In fact, I think TSW should delete all posts that question their draft strategies, and you would make the perfect censor to enforce that policy.

 

It's not about them. I'ts about Badol actually thinking he's the best talent evaluator of the 3. They've studied film on the players and so has Badol - he literally believes folks should side with him - prior to either of them playing in the NFL - that they f'd up missing what he see's so clearly.

 

It's hilarious and you're the sheep.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Triple Threat

[mannc]

Captain hot takes is back.

Despite his thousands of posts on this board, we are still waiting for RLB's first actual football take. I'm guessing it's just not gonna happen. Edited August 23, 2016 by mannc

[Maury Ballstein]

Despite his thousands of posts on this board, we are still waiting for RLB's first actual football take. I'm guessing it's just not gonna happen.

Here's one. You would be a dumpster fire of a Gm for the Bills.

 

Didn't you advocate every Oregon qb ever to play qb for us ? I can't remember which of your takes tickled me the hardest.

 

My hot takes.

 

Screamed like a girl when we drafted the flawless Sammy Watkins.

 

McCoy = good.

 

Leodis = the god

Edited August 23, 2016 by Ryan L Billz

[Kirby Jackson]

Yea well, I look at a player like LG Richie Incognito and saw that he not only transformed that left side into a solid area of the team but that he helped make his teammates on either side of him look and play better. So many Bills fans clamoring that they want to see Tyrod Taylor develop into that elite QB and that simply might not happen if his line doesn't protect him properly on both sides. Like you infer, you need both sides of the line to be solid or defenses will make you pay.

 

I kept reading in this forum for years Bills fans regurgitating what they heard from Buddy Nix in that OG's are a dime a dozen and you can find quality guards later in the draft. That any OT can be successfully moved to play guard which is something that Erik Pears disproved when he was moved from RT to RG and became the very worst OG in the league.

 

 

I would spend a top 15 pick on another Incognito and the Cowboys used the 16th pick on Zack Martin who became an all-pro RG in his first year. That team seems to know talent when they see it and go after it. They beat the Bills to La'el Collins and I can only dream of how good the Bills O-line would have been last year with that kid pancaking players for Buffalo at OG.

 

To me, protecting the most important position on both sides of the ball is worthy of a first round or even a top 10 pick. That is if you are 100% certain that the scouting dept knows what they are doing and that doesn't always appear to be the case in Buffalo. It was Rex Ryan that vouched for Incognito and went after Collins by dining with him to get him to sign with the Bills.

 

Is this the same team that thought Demetress Bell would make a solid starting LT or Mansfield Wrotto, Cornell Green, Cordaro Howard would make a decent RT. No, it isn't! But they are still very far from the Dallas Cowboys scouting dept from what I see in regards to offensive line talent evaluation.

 

 

To Kouandjio, It's good to see a young player develop into a better player and just how good we won't really know until we see how he does after the regular season games start.

I don't disagree that it is important to have a good line. How did Dallas do last year with 3 first round OL plus Collins (basically 4)? They won 4 games. They couldn't run it, couldn't throw it and couldn't stop people. Dez Bryant missed half he year or they may have won another game or 2. If Zach Martin missed half the year they weren't 2 games worse IMO. Obviously their QB was hurt but by the same token how did Houston fair with their eite pass rush and star WR? Their QB situation was no better but they won 9 games.

 

I want a strong OL (the Bills may have one) but I am never building it with 1st rounders. That's reserved for elite skill players. A franchise LT at pick 15 or later I'd be okay with but otherwise you are getting QB, pass rush, guy who scores TDs or shut down corner. I just don't believe in using your most valuable asset on a guy who has to count on 4 others to get his job done.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Kirby Jackson

[mannc]

Here's one. You would be a dumpster fire of a Gm for the Bills.

 

Didn't you advocate every Oregon qb ever to play qb for us ? I can't remember which of your takes tickled me the hardest.

Actually, the only one I've ever "advocated" was Marcus Mariota. So far, that one's looking pretty good. Nice try, though,

[NoSaint]

I don't disagree that it is important to have a good line. How did Dallas do last year with 3 first round OL plus Collins (basically 4)? They won 4 games. They couldn't run it, couldn't throw it and couldn't stop people. Dez Bryant missed half he year or they may have won another game or 2. If Zach Martin missed half the year they weren't 2 games worse IMO. Obviously their QB was hurt but by the same token how did Houston fair with their eite pass rush and star WR? Their QB situation was no better but they won 9 games.

 

I want a strong OL (the Bills may have one) but I am never building it with 1st rounders. That's reserved for elite skill players. A franchise LT at pick 15 or later I'd be okay with but otherwise you are getting QB, pass rush, guy who scores TDs or shut down corner. I just don't believe in using your most valuable asset on a guy who has to count on 4 others to get his job done.

i think you nailed it up thread when you said a star player at the OL can be eaten up by your worst DL. Generally he will win the matchup all day, but a WR that needs two defenders leaves you playing 10 vs 9 on the rest of the field.

 

the specific players available would dictate the decision but through the years ive come around much more to the idea of late 1s through say early 4ths being able to be very reliable with the right scheme/coaching while the top ten guys are not really hugely out performing them.

[mannc]

Here's one. You would be a dumpster fire of a Gm for the Bills.

 

Didn't you advocate every Oregon qb ever to play qb for us ? I can't remember which of your takes tickled me the hardest.

 

My hot takes.

 

Screamed like a girl when we drafted the flawless Sammy Watkins.

 

McCoy = good.

 

Leodis = the god

If I was GM of the Bills since 2000, I can guarantee I would have produced at least as many playoff teams as Donahoe, Levy, Buddy, and Whaley combined.

 

And we're still waiting for some actual football analysis from RLB, as opposed to one-line attacks on anyone and everyone who questions the profound wisdom of the Bills organization.

Edited August 23, 2016 by mannc

[Kirby Jackson]

i think you nailed it up thread when you said a star player at the OL can be eaten up by your worst DL. Generally he will win the matchup all day, but a WR that needs two defenders leaves you playing 10 vs 9 on the rest of the field.

 

the specific players available would dictate the decision but through the years ive come around much more to the idea of late 1s through say early 4ths being able to be very reliable with the right scheme/coaching while the top ten guys are not really hugely out performing them.

One thing to add to it is the importance of coaching on the OL. Aaron Kromer is as good of an OL coach as there is. Coaching is more important in an area like OL than it is at somewhere like WR. You win with technique, positioning and the play calling as much as you do with ability. That's not the case at CB for example.

[thebandit27]

 

I have no issue with the position either...........I have issue with drafting for need when needs change significantly from year to year.

 

Will Shaq and RR be better than a guy like Manny Lawson who....to be kind......probably couldn't start for another team in the league?

 

If not then they will be outright busts.

 

I've never predicted that. I don't even want to think about that. When you aim low to start you hope to at least hit the target.

 

The question for me is will these guys be the kind of impactful players that can transition from one scheme to the next if necessary and still be impactful.

 

I don't think Shaq is the kind of guy that can be a 10 sack guy in a one gap 4-3 attack. I don't think Ragnuts would cut it as an every down 4-3 MLB.

 

I could be wrong.......but that's what I see. Limited players who were drafted as much because they seemed closer to ready than other rookies might be as because of the potential impact they can have.

 

Well, as you know, I'm not huge on drafting for need either.

 

I have a slightly higher opinion of Manny than you do; I think he goes in the category of starter-on-about-1/3-of-teams. Your point about this being his best fit, however, is dead-on, given that his greatest assets are coverage ability and funneling ball carriers.

 

I know you and I differ on Shaq--I don't think that was an aim-low pick. It was definitely a need pick, as the ceiling pick there was Myles Jack. I agree on Ragland--that was a need move that reeked of desperation. The irony of it, IMO, is that taking Jack at 19 would've meant that they could stand pat at 49 with their ILB already in the fold and had another 4th round pick in their back pocket; I wasn't a fan of that move.

 

For me, I always feel that "stick to your board" is the best philosophy. No pick has shown me the value of that approach more than Darby. At the time, he wasn't considered a "need" pick because the team had Gilmore, McKelvin, Graham, and Robey, who were all coming off of solid-if-unspectacular seasons at CB. Lo-and-behold, come week 1, it was downright critical that Darby be in the starting lineup. The cream always floats to the top.

[stony]

If I was GM of the Bills since 2000, I can guarantee I would have produced at least as many playoff teams as Donahoe, Levy, Buddy, and Whaley combined.

 

And we're still waiting for some actual football analysis from RLB, as opposed to one-line attacks on anyone and everyone who questions the profound wisdom of the Bills organization.

 

I'm listening.

[Maury Ballstein]

RLB, as opposed to one-line attacks on anyone and everyone who questions the profound wisdom of the Bills organization.

Don't be so lazy. My one line zingers are for guys with zany takes like you.

 

I've been anti bills millions of times. If you knew what you were talking about you would know this already. I'm sorry RN I didn't use my notepad to scribble down your laughable takes in the past.

 

Guess we will start fresh with a new one. You as Gm over Whaley is now page 1. You are safe from your older "material".

 

Pm me for any future "beef". Don't need to hijack this KUJO thread any longer.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Ryan L Billz

[JohnC]

 

Well, as you know, I'm not huge on drafting for need either.

 

I have a slightly higher opinion of Manny than you do; I think he goes in the category of starter-on-about-1/3-of-teams. Your point about this being his best fit, however, is dead-on, given that his greatest assets are coverage ability and funneling ball carriers.

 

I know you and I differ on Shaq--I don't think that was an aim-low pick. It was definitely a need pick, as the ceiling pick there was Myles Jack. I agree on Ragland--that was a need move that reeked of desperation. The irony of it, IMO, is that taking Jack at 19 would've meant that they could stand pat at 49 with their ILB already in the fold and had another 4th round pick in their back pocket; I wasn't a fan of that move.

 

For me, I always feel that "stick to your board" is the best philosophy. No pick has shown me the value of that approach more than Darby. At the time, he wasn't considered a "need" pick because the team had Gilmore, McKelvin, Graham, and Robey, who were all coming off of solid-if-unspectacular seasons at CB. Lo-and-behold, come week 1, it was downright critical that Darby be in the starting lineup. The cream always floats to the top.

You and I are simpatico on the issue of drafting talent over position. Your citing of the selection of Darby underscores the wisdom of that approach to drafting. Of course there isn't a pure philosophical approach to drafting because positional need has to be factored in but overall player ranking should be the most influential consideration when making picks.

 

It is the body of work for a number of consecutive years that build up a critical mass of good players that will determine sustained success for an organization. As I stated in a prior post Ozzie Newsome subscribes to the philosophy of sticking to your board; in my view as demonstrated by his record he is one of the best GMs in the game and a good model to follow.

[section122]

One thing to add to it is the importance of coaching on the OL. Aaron Kromer is as good of an OL coach as there is. Coaching is more important in an area like OL than it is at somewhere like WR. You win with technique, positioning and the play calling as much as you do with ability. That's not the case at CB for example.

 

Yup I think we have to look no further than the Pats* Dante Scarnechi (sp?) who was brought back this year after Stork tipped the snap the entire AFC Championship game. If he doesn't do that I think the Pats may be back to back champs...

[Nihilarian]

I don't disagree that it is important to have a good line. How did Dallas do last year with 3 first round OL plus Collins (basically 4)? They won 4 games. They couldn't run it, couldn't throw it and couldn't stop people. Dez Bryant missed half he year or they may have won another game or 2. If Zach Martin missed half the year they weren't 2 games worse IMO. Obviously their QB was hurt but by the same token how did Houston fair with their eite pass rush and star WR? Their QB situation was no better but they won 9 games.

 

I want a strong OL (the Bills may have one) but I am never building it with 1st rounders. That's reserved for elite skill players. A franchise LT at pick 15 or later I'd be okay with but otherwise you are getting QB, pass rush, guy who scores TDs or shut down corner.

 

I just don't believe in using your most valuable asset on a guy who has to count on 4 others to get his job done.

The Cowboys had such complete incompetence at QB after Romo went down and they let their star RB leave in thinking that any RB will do with such a great line. There is a reason that the QB position is the most important position on the field on both sides of the ball and why the Bills are paying McCoy 6 mill per. Scrubs will never replace elite skill talent. That said, one superstar at WR isn't the answer by himself because teams can roll coverages toward him without worrying about big plays from the scrub receivers. Then you need a QB that is able to get him the ball.

 

You seem to be perfectly happy with the Sammy Watkins pick in 2014 using two firsts and a fourth to obtain while Zack Martin was there at 16. The Bills could have traded back to land Martin (*a position of need) and acquired more picks and then in the second round drafted Allen Robinson or Jarvis Landry at WR, not to mention Beckham instead of Martin. Plus they would have had that #1, 2015 pick as a starter to help fill the starting lineup.

(*This was before Rex Ryan and Richie Incognito as the team was attempting to utilize Erik Pears at RG in horrific fashion with that old Nix thinking.)

 

I think we disagree that the Bills currently have a strong line because it looks good in preseason or had a high grade from last season due to the emergence of OG Richie Incognito grading as the best OG in the league. Like you mentioned the line takes competent five players to be effective and is only as good as it's weakest link. With Glenn, Incognito, and Wood the line is above average on the left and with Miller and Mills on the right side, it is very suspect. Which side do you think defenses will attack?

 

While last year the Bills line looked good for most of the year that was also because Miller wasn't in there and the better pass blocker in Urbik was. Now stating that what happens if either Mills or Miller gets hurt as the backups look so much worse than the starters on the right. That right side still has to face a strong test once the season starts.

 

The 2015 Bills were the #1 team in big plays on offense and yet still had great difficulty in maintaining a good three and out percentage in which they were 31st. They either had a big play or difficulty maintaining possession of the ball. This season how effective can Watkins be if Taylor doesn't have time to get him the ball or if he is injured because that right side doesn't hold up?

 

in regards to that last sentence of yours. The Bills had 250 million dollars and numerous #1 picks tied up in defensive line talent and where did it get them in terms of sacks / QB pressures? Coaching matters, schemes matter and building a solid line on both sides of the ball should be the very first priority of any GM, IMHO.

[Kirby Jackson]

The Cowboys had such complete incompetence at QB after Romo went down and they let their star RB leave in thinking that any RB will do with such a great line. There is a reason that the QB position is the most important position on the field on both sides of the ball and why the Bills are paying McCoy 6 mill per. Scrubs will never replace elite skill talent. That said, one superstar at WR isn't the answer by himself because teams can roll coverages toward him without worrying about big plays from the scrub receivers. Then you need a QB that is able to get him the ball.

 

You seem to be perfectly happy with the Sammy Watkins pick in 2014 using two firsts and a fourth to obtain while Zack Martin was there at 16. The Bills could have traded back to land Martin (*a position of need) and acquired more picks and then in the second round drafted Allen Robinson or Jarvis Landry at WR, not to mention Beckham instead of Martin. Plus they would have had that #1, 2015 pick as a starter to help fill the starting lineup.

(*This was before Rex Ryan and Richie Incognito as the team was attempting to utilize Erik Pears at RG in horrific fashion with that old Nix thinking.)

 

I think we disagree that the Bills currently have a strong line because it looks good in preseason or had a high grade from last season due to the emergence of OG Richie Incognito grading as the best OG in the league. Like you mentioned the line takes competent five players to be effective and is only as good as it's weakest link. With Glenn, Incognito, and Wood the line is above average on the left and with Miller and Mills on the right side, it is very suspect. Which side do you think defenses will attack?

 

While last year the Bills line looked good for most of the year that was also because Miller wasn't in there and the better pass blocker in Urbik was. Now stating that what happens if either Mills or Miller gets hurt as the backups look so much worse than the starters on the right. That right side still has to face a strong test once the season starts.

 

The 2015 Bills were the #1 team in big plays on offense and yet still had great difficulty in maintaining a good three and out percentage in which they were 31st. They either had a big play or difficulty maintaining possession of the ball. This season how effective can Watkins be if Taylor doesn't have time to get him the ball or if he is injured because that right side doesn't hold up?

 

in regards to that last sentence of yours. The Bills had 250 million dollars and numerous #1 picks tied up in defensive line talent and where did it get them in terms of sacks / QB pressures? Coaching matters, schemes matter and building a solid line on both sides of the ball should be the very first priority of any GM, IMHO.

That is why I used the Texans as an example. Brian Hoyer, Ryan Mallett, TJ Yates and Brandon Weeden started for them last year. It is no worse than the Cowboys.

 

It is easy to MMQB it with the depth of WR. I thought (and still think) that Watkins was the best player on their board between 2013-2015 drafts. I have zero issue going to get an elite playmaker. He is as talented as anyone in the league. I loved the move at the time and do not dislike it at all now. They could have easily included their 2014 2nd instead of their 2015 1st. If you only subtracted Kuoandjio and added a 2015 1st would you like it? You can't analyze things in hindsight otherwise Tom Brady would have went before the 6th.

 

The left side of the line is good and the right suspect. We are in agreement. The Bills led the league in rushing last year with the same 5 guys. In addition, they had time to throw the ball down the field as well as anyone. I have no issues with the line play. The Bills want to run the ball and throw it down the field. These guys have proven capable of getting that done.

 

To the 3rd bolded point if Watkins or Taylor get hurt it will be much more damaging than if Incognito gets hurt. It speaks to my exact point. Game results are swayed by a guard (even a great one) like they are by an elite playmaker. The Bills will game plan ways to get the ball in his hands on screens (watch the highlights of Sammy vs. OSU in the Orange Bowl) and other quick hitters. They can move him to the slot, put him in motion, etc... He beats his man off the line every single time. You don't need long to get him the ball because he is always open. They can get him the ball still if the right side doesn't hold up. I am not sure though why we should assume that they wont be able to hold up to get the ball down the field when they were as good as anyone in the league at it last year?

 

The last bold is my point!! You can scheme up a good OL (look what Kromer has done in his career). Tell me where Bushrod, Strief, Jahri Evans and Carl Nicks were drafted. Their OL was good because of the scheme not the draft position. In terms of the DL I agree as well. That is why I have been critical of Rex. Why you would pay Mario, Hughes, Dareus and Kyle and try to trick people by dropping them into coverage at times is beyond me. Schwartz did the EXACT opposite. He let the talent play and they excelled. If you are lacking talent (as the Bills are now with the injuries) you need to get creative to create pressure.

 

The Broncos had the 16th best OL last year, the Patriots 23rd in 2014 and the Seahawks 27 in 2013. I did not go back further but those are your last 3 Super Bowl Champs. You don't win on the OL. You win stopping the pass, creating turnovers and making plays.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Kirby Jackson