Is Cyrus Kouandjio Still a Bust?

[Beerball]

All second rounds are not created equal. The 2014 Draft was regarded as one of the deepest drafts in years. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect pick #44 to contribute in their first two years.

 

Importance is relative. Less important than backups at any skill position, surely. And when Kujo is playing swing tackle (because he can't beat out Jordan Mills, a fifth round pick in one of the worst drafts in NFL history) I find it very difficult to say, "yeah he's irreplaceable in a very important position."

So, knowing that all second round picks are not created equal what tackles drafted after Kouandjio have made an impact in the NFL, and when were they drafted? I'm not an NFLnik so I am genuinely interested in the answer to this question.

 

So, a swing tackle is not an important position on an NFL team, relatively. Then, why do you not want to see this bust cut yesterday?

 

Do you not think that perhaps your definition of the word is a bit too limiting? Most people, I believe, consider a bust a done deal. If you are a bust today you are a bust tomorrow. Others will correct me if I'm off base here (in their opinions). To you, it appears, a bust is a "living, breathing" kind of thing. You can be a bust today, but a solid contributor tomorrow. Am I wrong here?

[The Frankish Reich]

There is sometimes a weird, knee-jerk reaction to players that makes the absurd assumption that a player won't improve from year to year. In Kujo's rookie year, he was the youngest player on the team (IIRC), was overwhelmed, and poorly coached under Marrone. His line coach called him "Venus De Milo" to his face. Then, in his first offseason, he worked tirelessly to improve, joined an O-line camp, and fully committed himself to his position. (What would K. Williams look like right now if he had the same offseason work ethic?) And, he was clearly improved last season. So, why should we assume that he had reached his ceiling?

 

Kujo kicked ass today. Hell no, he's not a bust.

Did he? I watched the game, and tried to rewind to focus on Kujo when the left side was involved in the play. He was beaten badly on a couple pass plays. The Bills tried almost no running plays to the left side (which made sense given that both Richie and Cordy were out), not that the running plays to the right side were a rip roaring success either. I guess we can say that he didn't look awful (Eric Pears-style) and that is an improvement, and he still is young, but I'm not sure I'm ready to pronounce Kujo a draft success yet. Maybe we're getting a little ahead of reality here, desperate for some good news?

Edited August 21, 2016 by The Frankish Reich

[NoSaint]

Is this fact?

if I recall he is 1.3m hit, but only 900k dead if cut

 

You'd end up spending the difference to fill the job, so you aren't saving really but it's not like FC seemed to be portraying

[Beerball]

That appears to be the point of contention with BB right now.

 

I agree that if Kujo isn't the worst back up ever, its great new from where he was the last two years. But that doesn't mean he was a good second round pick. And for those that remember the stories out of OBD around draft time in 2014, Whaley had the option of trading our 2015 1st or our 2014 2nd to move up to get Sammy. Ergo, he thought his 2nd rounder in 2014 was worth more than a 1st in 2015. Kujo, worth more than 1st round pick? Clear failure of expectations..

The important difference between Kirby's statement and yours is that yours conveys finality, his does not. You enjoy, it seems to me, to make blanket statements to see what kind of reaction you're able to get, rather than engage in a conversation about a topic. Perhaps, you may consider adding those two words (so far...) or others like them to your future conversations rather than always making proclamations?

[Maury Ballstein]

I would like to see a bust today and a bust tommorow.

 

Sounds like Hugh Hefners life.

[NoSaint]

He probably checks the 2nd box (or at least will). He certainly has been a bust so far and it's rare that guys turn a corner. He was 21 years old and super raw so maybe it just took some time? I wouldn't be surprised at this point if he became a decent NFL starter. I like him in the swing tackle role.

 

I can't believe that I am saying any of this because I thought that he was one of the worst few guys on the 90 man roster let alone the 53. CK as a contributing NFL player is a huge win from what I thought that he would be after the last few years.

I think on day 2 of the draft you see some guys take a minute to get their feet under them. I wouldn't be shocked if he was one.

 

I'll also mention that I think Kromer is a stud OL coach even though many here were worried after his media incident in Chicago and the beach chairs. Dude has helped bring A LOT of mid/late picks to Nfl contributors (and even stars). Enough that I think it's in large part his coaching and not just him getting lucky that he was handed 1-2 overachievers

[Kirby Jackson]

I think on day 2 of the draft you see some guys take a minute to get their feet under them. I wouldn't be shocked if he was one.

 

I'll also mention that I think Kromer is a stud OL coach even though many here were worried after his media incident in Chicago and the beach chairs. Dude has helped bring A LOT of mid/late picks to Nfl contributors (and even stars). Enough that I think it's in large part his coaching and not just him getting lucky that he was handed 1-2 overachievers

Great point on Kromer. He is a fantastic OL coach.

[FireChan]

So, knowing that all second round picks are not created equal what tackles drafted after Kouandjio have made an impact in the NFL, and when were they drafted? I'm not an NFLnik so I am genuinely interested in the answer to this question.

 

So, a swing tackle is not an important position on an NFL team, relatively. Then, why do you not want to see this bust cut yesterday?

 

Do you not think that perhaps your definition of the word is a bit too limiting? Most people, I believe, consider a bust a done deal. If you are a bust today you are a bust tomorrow. Others will correct me if I'm off base here (in their opinions). To you, it appears, a bust is a "living, breathing" kind of thing. You can be a bust today, but a solid contributor tomorrow. Am I wrong here?

I think a question like this is flawed. Even if there weren't superior OT's taken after Kujo, taking Kujo that high would still make him a bust. Especially because players at other positions did contribute a lot more than a swing tackle in year 3.

 

But to answer your question, I would take Jack Mewhort OT, pick #59 and Morgan Moses OT, pick #66 over Kujo today. Both have made a bigger impact. Both have struggled early and had setbacks in their first season, but have taken strides and shown more than Kujo.

 

On another note, some of the players taken after Kujo in the second are... Davante Adams, WR, Jeremy Hill, RB, Kony Ealy, DE (of SB fame), Allen Robinson, WR, Jimmy Garropalo, QB and Jarvis Landry, WR. When looking at the contributions of those guys, excluding Garopolo for obvious reasons, hasn't every single one of them proven to contribute more than Kujo?

 

Swing tackle is not that importnat, sure. But someone must play that position and you probably can't improve on Kujo for $400k. So I wouldn't cut him, unless he got beaten out.

 

Do I think my definition is too limiting? No, quite the opposite. I think it's quite flexible in that it gives players a chance to redeem themselves as long as they play in the NFL. Not only that, but it does not discriminate. You are almost grasping my stance. I'm not only saying that a bust can change his stars, but that you can both be a bust and a solid contributor at the same time.

 

Let me demonstrate with some examples.

 

CJ Spiller, some would argue, was a decent contributor. Wasn't a great RB, but had some moments and made some plays. Is that what he was drafted to be? Not in the top 10 he wasn't. Bust. But, if in the next 5 years, he cranks out 1300 yard seasons and 8-10 TD's for the Saints, would I still call him a bust? No. He would clearly have been a late bloomer who looked like a bust early then put it all together. But I don't change my evaluations of players until they force me to.

 

Another example, EJ and Cardale.

 

Let's say Cardale follows EJ's same career path. Forced to start early, has some moments, majority of the body of work is underwhelming, relegated to a backup until further notice with his chance of ever starting again on life support. With EJ, drafted in the first round, this is clearly a bust. He wasn't drafted to be at best a backup. With Cardale, drafted in the fourth round, this is muddy. Can you expect your 4th round pick to be much more than a backup? Sometimes you can, sometimes that's the best you can get. I wouldn't, however, definitively call him a bust.

 

The important difference between Kirby's statement and yours is that yours conveys finality, his does not. You enjoy, it seems to me, to make blanket statements to see what kind of reaction you're able to get, rather than engage in a conversation about a topic. Perhaps, you may consider adding those two words (so far...) or others like them to your future conversations rather than always making proclamations?

I'm rather enjoying this engagement right now. You asked me to clarify my stance, and I feel that I have both cordially and sufficiently.

 

I don't make blanket statements to invoke reactions, but I do not like writing pages of words that no one cares to read. If someone takes my viewpoint wrong, I am happy to further explain, if they care to listen.

[section122]

The important difference between Kirby's statement and yours is that yours conveys finality, his does not. You enjoy, it seems to me, to make blanket statements to see what kind of reaction you're able to get, rather than engage in a conversation about a topic. Perhaps, you may consider adding those two words (so far...) or others like them to your future conversations rather than always making proclamations?

Seeing you do to firechan what he does to everyone else was incredibly enjoyable this morning.

 

It seems there are some posters that would rather take issue with what others say (cough weo) than offer perspective of their own and it is annoying to say the least. Well done beerball!

[Blokestradamus]

Great point on Kromer. He is a fantastic OL coach.

 

And yet, he can't polish the turd that is Jordan Mills.

[atlbillsfan1975]

ame="atlbillsfan1975" post="4014377" timestamp="1471752601"]Tasker made a comment in the first preseason game related to this, which I'm sure is what the poster is referring to. Something like the LT position allows him to get his initial step with his good leg/knee. Don't know to what extent it's true.

I kind of respect that. However he still has that bad knee ,(if it is indeed due to his knee). The initial push is important but it doesn't stop there. It might also be a mental/comfort thing.

[The Frankish Reich]

I think a question like this is flawed. Even if there weren't superior OT's taken after Kujo, taking Kujo that high would still make him a bust. Especially because players at other positions did contribute a lot more than a swing tackle in year 3.

 

But to answer your question, I would take Jack Mewhort OT, pick #59 and Morgan Moses OT, pick #66 over Kujo today. Both have made a bigger impact. Both have struggled early and had setbacks in their first season, but have taken strides and shown more than Kujo.

 

On another note, some of the players taken after Kujo in the second are... Davante Adams, WR, Jeremy Hill, RB, Kony Ealy, DE (of SB fame), Allen Robinson, WR, Jimmy Garropalo, QB and Jarvis Landry, WR. When looking at the contributions of those guys, excluding Garopolo for obvious reasons, hasn't every single one of them proven to contribute more than Kujo?

 

Swing tackle is not that importnat, sure. But someone must play that position and you probably can't improve on Kujo for $400k. So I wouldn't cut him, unless he got beaten out.

 

Do I think my definition is too limiting? No, quite the opposite. I think it's quite flexible in that it gives players a chance to redeem themselves as long as they play in the NFL. Not only that, but it does not discriminate. You are almost grasping my stance. I'm not only saying that a bust can change his stars, but that you can both be a bust and a solid contributor at the same time.

 

Let me demonstrate with some examples.

 

CJ Spiller, some would argue, was a decent contributor. Wasn't a great RB, but had some moments and made some plays. Is that what he was drafted to be? Not in the top 10 he wasn't. Bust. But, if in the next 5 years, he cranks out 1300 yard seasons and 8-10 TD's for the Saints, would I still call him a bust? No. He would clearly have been a late bloomer who looked like a bust early then put it all together. But I don't change my evaluations of players until they force me to.

 

Another example, EJ and Cardale.

 

Let's say Cardale follows EJ's same career path. Forced to start early, has some moments, majority of the body of work is underwhelming, relegated to a backup until further notice with his chance of ever starting again on life support. With EJ, drafted in the first round, this is clearly a bust. He wasn't drafted to be at best a backup. With Cardale, drafted in the fourth round, this is muddy. Can you expect your 4th round pick to be much more than a backup? Sometimes you can, sometimes that's the best you can get. I wouldn't, however, definitively call him a bust.

 

I'm rather enjoying this engagement right now. You asked me to clarify my stance, and I feel that I have both cordially and sufficiently.

 

I don't make blanket statements to invoke reactions, but I do not like writing pages of words that no one cares to read. If someone takes my viewpoint wrong, I am happy to further explain, if they care to listen.

Not to butt into other people's private arguments, but ... in today's NFL, with 4 year free agency, I'm not really sure why people care about what an EJ or Kujo may turn into in another couple years. They're not under team control by then! The proper way to evaluate a draft pick, from the team perspective, is "how much value did he provide relative to draft expectations during the years he was under team control." For some guys, that's a tough analysis. Take Brock Osweiler. By all accounts, he did his job (holding a clipboard for Peyton, until about half a dozen starts last year) during his 4 years of team control. But for a guy like Kujo, the expectation was at least "3 year starter", and right now, he's looking like a 0 year starter.

[FireChan]

Not to butt into other people's private arguments, but ... in today's NFL, with 4 year free agency, I'm not really sure why people care about what an EJ or Kujo may turn into in another couple years. They're not under team control by then! The proper way to evaluate a draft pick, from the team perspective, is "how much value did he provide relative to draft expectations during the years he was under team control." For some guys, that's a tough analysis. Take Brock Osweiler. By all accounts, he did his job (holding a clipboard for Peyton, until about half a dozen starts last year) during his 4 years of team control. But for a guy like Kujo, the expectation was at least "3 year starter", and right now, he's looking like a 0 year starter.

I fundamentally disagree. Only the career of the players matters. If a player has a horrific injury, gets waived due to circumstance or can't be re-signed due to salary cap concerns, that should not affect how they are seen as draft picks.

 

Perfect example last year that I still give Whaley credit for. Ross Cockrell. Got cut last year because he had a bad camp and got outplayed with a lot of CB depth. Went to Pittsburgh where there was a great opportunity due to a thin CB unit, and was a very solid contributor. As a 4th round pick, that's pretty good. That doesn't make Cockrell a bust, just the opposite. He was a good pick that circumstance forced out of Buffalo.

[NoSaint]

Great point on Kromer. He is a fantastic OL coach.

I know you are familiar but for the wider discussions sake I'll throw out jahri Evans (mid round tackle turned possibly best guard of the decade), Carl nicks (another mid round tackle turned all pro guard that fell apart after moving on), bushrod (mid round tackle turned multiple probowler), Zach streif (7th round tackle with an all pro selection), Jonathan Goodwin (5th round journeyman that went to the probowl under kromer)....

 

And that's before you get to nice little flashes from guys like mills at RT for Chicago and us. Not a star but an affordable resource that can contribute. If CK gets his act together, I think the change from the many voices/conflicting messages under marrone to a solid coach like kromer will be a big part.

Edited August 21, 2016 by NoSaint

[The Frankish Reich]

I fundamentally disagree. Only the career of the players matters. If a player has a horrific injury, gets waived due to circumstance or can't be re-signed due to salary cap concerns, that should not affect how they are seen as draft picks.

 

Perfect example last year that I still give Whaley credit for. Ross Cockrell. Got cut last year because he had a bad camp and got outplayed with a lot of CB depth. Went to Pittsburgh where there was a great opportunity due to a thin CB unit, and was a very solid contributor. As a 4th round pick, that's pretty good. That doesn't make Cockrell a bust, just the opposite. He was a good pick that circumstance forced out of Buffalo.

Well, you're answering a different question. Your question is, "Will Kujo go down as a bust as an NFL player?" And that's a perfectly fair question to ask. My question is, "Will Kujo provide good value to the Bills for the use of a high draft pick?" And that question is already answered, since even if Kujo performs well this year, that will be only 16 games of reasonable value over the course of a 4 year contract, and also taking into consideration the opportunity cost of not drafting someone else in that slot who would have contributed. This is the problem now of "project" draft picks. If Cardale is a Year 3 estimated contributor, you're already in the situation of only 2 years of any expected value. And even if Years 3-4 are great, you're then stuck with "is he worth a franchise tag" analysis. (But take into account that Cardale's low round slot may justify that kind of developmental high risk/high potential future reward pick). I think NFL GMs are adapting to the new reality. The truth is Kujo is a bust from Whaley's perspective no matter what he winds up salvaging in his career in the future.

Edited August 21, 2016 by The Frankish Reich

[Rocky Landing]

Did he? I watched the game, and tried to rewind to focus on Kujo when the left side was involved in the play. He was beaten badly on a couple pass plays. The Bills tried almost no running plays to the left side (which made sense given that both Richie and Cordy were out), not that the running plays to the right side were a rip roaring success either. I guess we can say that he didn't look awful (Eric Pears-style) and that is an improvement, and he still is young, but I'm not sure I'm ready to pronounce Kujo a draft success yet. Maybe we're getting a little ahead of reality here, desperate for some good news?

It seemed to me that the weakness on the left side was more on Groy than Kujo. But, even so, Glenn gets beat from time to time, also. Every LT gets beat from time to time. For the most part, it seemed to me that our O-line provided a stable pocket against the Giants first string D, and Kujo was out there with TT, as well.

 

I also think some of this O-line improvement comes with Tyrod's (and Manuel's for that matter) comfort in the pocket. I felt like last season, TT would drop back so far from the LOS, always giving himself an escape route, that it became difficult to hold. I think Miller, and Mills looked better yesterday, too.

[The Frankish Reich]

It seemed to me that the weakness on the left side was more on Groy than Kujo. But, even so, Glenn gets beat from time to time, also. Every LT gets beat from time to time. For the most part, it seemed to me that our O-line provided a stable pocket against the Giants first string D, and Kujo was out there with TT, as well.

 

I also think some of this O-line improvement comes with Tyrod's (and Manuel's for that matter) comfort in the pocket. I felt like last season, TT would drop back so far from the LOS, always giving himself an escape route, that it became difficult to hold. I think Miller, and Mills looked better yesterday, too.

I think the consensus was that Groy was terrible, Kujo o.k. But to me Kujo didn't look like he was ready to do anything more than be a marginally capable backup, which is indeed an improvement ....

 

... just to check on relative value, I checked on the O lineman selected after the Bills took Kujo. It was Jack Mewhort/Colts. Colts appeared to have an awful O line last year, but interestingly Mewhort rated pretty highly by PFF (which I take with a grain of salt), but even according to them he only became effective after moving to guard from tackle.

Edited August 21, 2016 by The Frankish Reich

[Beerball]

I think a question like this is flawed. Even if there weren't superior OT's taken after Kujo, taking Kujo that high would still make him a bust. Especially because players at other positions did contribute a lot more than a swing tackle in year 3.

 

But to answer your question, I would take Jack Mewhort OT, pick #59 and Morgan Moses OT, pick #66 over Kujo today. Both have made a bigger impact. Both have struggled early and had setbacks in their first season, but have taken strides and shown more than Kujo.

 

On another note, some of the players taken after Kujo in the second are... Davante Adams, WR, Jeremy Hill, RB, Kony Ealy, DE (of SB fame), Allen Robinson, WR, Jimmy Garropalo, QB and Jarvis Landry, WR. When looking at the contributions of those guys, excluding Garopolo for obvious reasons, hasn't every single one of them proven to contribute more than Kujo?

 

Swing tackle is not that importnat, sure. But someone must play that position and you probably can't improve on Kujo for $400k. So I wouldn't cut him, unless he got beaten out.

 

Do I think my definition is too limiting? No, quite the opposite. I think it's quite flexible in that it gives players a chance to redeem themselves as long as they play in the NFL. Not only that, but it does not discriminate. You are almost grasping my stance. I'm not only saying that a bust can change his stars, but that you can both be a bust and a solid contributor at the same time.

 

Let me demonstrate with some examples.

 

CJ Spiller, some would argue, was a decent contributor. Wasn't a great RB, but had some moments and made some plays. Is that what he was drafted to be? Not in the top 10 he wasn't. Bust. But, if in the next 5 years, he cranks out 1300 yard seasons and 8-10 TD's for the Saints, would I still call him a bust? No. He would clearly have been a late bloomer who looked like a bust early then put it all together. But I don't change my evaluations of players until they force me to.

 

Another example, EJ and Cardale.

 

Let's say Cardale follows EJ's same career path. Forced to start early, has some moments, majority of the body of work is underwhelming, relegated to a backup until further notice with his chance of ever starting again on life support. With EJ, drafted in the first round, this is clearly a bust. He wasn't drafted to be at best a backup. With Cardale, drafted in the fourth round, this is muddy. Can you expect your 4th round pick to be much more than a backup? Sometimes you can, sometimes that's the best you can get. I wouldn't, however, definitively call him a bust.

 

I'm rather enjoying this engagement right now. You asked me to clarify my stance, and I feel that I have both cordially and sufficiently.

 

I don't make blanket statements to invoke reactions, but I do not like writing pages of words that no one cares to read. If someone takes my viewpoint wrong, I am happy to further explain, if they care to listen.

The second quote was posted before your first. I believe that you'll find that my posts are typically one liners. But, because I choose my words carefully I rarely get into rumbles with people.

 

You are, as I've stated publicly, on thin ice here at TBD (with me). Believe it or not, I am trying to show you how your existence here can continue. In the end, it is up to you. If your behavior improves you will still be here for years to come. If not, then I will be to blame.

[Big Turk]

For his draft position he is underperforming, but he is looking like a solid backup right now that can fill in spot duty for the starters...

 

Is that a bust? No...a bust is a player who flames out of the league and can't get on the field or when he does is hopeless...Kouandijo looks far from hopeless at this point. He looks pretty decent. For a bust, Aaron Maybin comes to mind. That's a legit bust.

 

Not what you really hope for out of a 2nd round pick but not the worst either...look at a player like Jonathan Cooper who was drafted in the first round and was supposed to be awesome that has been nothing but hurt and mostly ineffective...lets see if he can resurrect his career with the Patriots...

Edited August 21, 2016 by matter2003

[Dopey]

And yet, he can't polish the turd that is Jordan Mills.

 

Still a great oline coach. Maybe Mills is diarrhea and not a solid turd that can be polished. To point to a late round pick who joined us late in the season as a failure on kromer is just wrong. I'm willing to wait to see if he improves throughout the season with more coaching.If he still struggles, that's not a black mark on kromer. Kromer is still a damn good oline coach.