C.Biscuit97 Posted August 24, 2016 Posted August 24, 2016 There is nothing cooler than being the person who labels an athlete (who reached the top 1% of their profession) a bust first. It's so awesome. Let the season play out. There used to be a thought that drafting olinemen was a safe route to go. The draft is littered with olinemen "busts" who got drafted much higher than Cujo.
John from Riverside Posted August 24, 2016 Posted August 24, 2016 There is nothing cooler than being the person who labels an athlete (who reached the top 1% of their profession) a bust first. It's so awesome. Let the season play out. There used to be a thought that drafting olinemen was a safe route to go. The draft is littered with olinemen "busts" who got drafted much higher than Cujo. this
section122 Posted August 24, 2016 Posted August 24, 2016 There is nothing cooler than being the person who labels an athlete (who reached the top 1% of their profession) a bust first. It's so awesome. Let the season play out. There used to be a thought that drafting olinemen was a safe route to go. The draft is littered with olinemen "busts" who got drafted much higher than Cujo. I always have to catch myself. Especially NBA players. I watched a preseason game live and Bobby Sura and LaMond Murray tore up the court and put on a show (how about those names lol). Even the worst players on the court/field are likely better at what they do than I ever will be at anything.
C.Biscuit97 Posted August 24, 2016 Posted August 24, 2016 I always have to catch myself. Especially NBA players. I watched a preseason game live and Bobby Sura and LaMond Murray tore up the court and put on a show (how about those names lol). Even the worst players on the court/field are likely better at what they do than I ever will be at anything. Bobby Sura could ball! And I'm different. I played in college and realize how insanely good and focused you need to be to make the pros. Some folks assume it's easy for guys to make it. What a college football has to do would blow some fans minds. I also think it's weird to boo another man.
NoSaint Posted August 24, 2016 Posted August 24, 2016 I always have to catch myself. Especially NBA players. I watched a preseason game live and Bobby Sura and LaMond Murray tore up the court and put on a show (how about those names lol). Even the worst players on the court/field are likely better at what they do than I ever will be at anything. its always a bit humbling when you step back and think about it -- i made a comment the other day when people were bashing mike vicks accuracy... when you stop for a minute and realize you are talking about a guy that is world class even in the spots we critique, and we are acting like hes the guy shanking balls at the practice range.... its amusing. even the "bad" ones are among the top couple hundred in the world -- id love to claim that at anything.
C.Biscuit97 Posted August 24, 2016 Posted August 24, 2016 its always a bit humbling when you step back and think about it -- i made a comment the other day when people were bashing mike vicks accuracy... when you stop for a minute and realize you are talking about a guy that is world class even in the spots we critique, and we are acting like hes the guy shanking balls at the practice range.... its amusing. even the "bad" ones are among the top couple hundred in the world -- id love to claim that at anything. One of my favorites is when some people call Fitz a loser. Yeah, the Harvard graduate who has played 10 years in the NFL, making millions of dollars, is a loser.
section122 Posted August 24, 2016 Posted August 24, 2016 Bobby Sura could ball! And I'm different. I played in college and realize how insanely good and focused you need to be to make the pros. Some folks assume it's easy for guys to make it. What a college football has to do would blow some fans minds. I also think it's weird to boo another man. I played Soccer in college but had no illusions of going pro lol. It was so involved though and took up so much of my time I often wondered what it would have to be like for D1 Basketball/Football players. I love Soccer and by the end of the season I would be burnt out. It was beyond a full time job. I get Ricky Williams. Sometimes the fun gets taken out of the "game." These guys do have to pour everything in to it as you say. Now I ref and it has given me perspective for the guys in stripes. I have a hard time booing them. The rule books are so obnoxious for sports these days, the rules have the letter of the law and the spirit of them, fans don't know them as well as they think they do, and you have to rely on what you saw in full speed while everyone else gets the benefit of super slo-motion. I feel for some of them. Then there are guys who have it out for a team (yes it happens even in HS) a la Walt Coleman who I can't stand. Or guys who want it to be about them (Hochuli - although he is a good ref). I don't mind when those guys get some heat and yes Bobby Sura could ball! That is kind of my point though lol. A name that is likely forgotten by a majority of people was the best player on the court that day and it blew my mind lol. Gave me a much different perspective on the pro athlete (I was still in HS with delusions of grandeur )
Blokestradamus Posted August 24, 2016 Posted August 24, 2016 (edited) its always a bit humbling when you step back and think about it -- i made a comment the other day when people were bashing mike vicks accuracy... when you stop for a minute and realize you are talking about a guy that is world class even in the spots we critique, and we are acting like hes the guy shanking balls at the practice range.... its amusing. even the "bad" ones are among the top couple hundred in the world -- id love to claim that at anything. I'm guessing some people know who Tim Henman is. Former six-time semi-finalist in tennis Grand Slams and a Silver medalist at the Atlanta Olympics. He used to get so much stick from fans and press alike because he only made semi-finals and only made it as high as #4 in the world (in an era with Agassi & Sampras). In a male population of 3 billion plus, being the 4th best at something isn't that bad. Edited August 24, 2016 by Blokestradamus
section122 Posted August 24, 2016 Posted August 24, 2016 its always a bit humbling when you step back and think about it -- i made a comment the other day when people were bashing mike vicks accuracy... when you stop for a minute and realize you are talking about a guy that is world class even in the spots we critique, and we are acting like hes the guy shanking balls at the practice range.... its amusing. even the "bad" ones are among the top couple hundred in the world -- id love to claim that at anything. One of my favorites is when some people call Fitz a loser. Yeah, the Harvard graduate who has played 10 years in the NFL, making millions of dollars, is a loser. I do usually try to give people the benefit of the doubt that they are talking relative to others in the profession but yep. Vick is a great example. He was inaccurate but it didn't matter. He was likely the best athlete in the entire NFL. That is incredible. I have stood next to a few NFLers and there pure size amazed me. Then talking about them running sub 5 seconds for 40 yards... Jeez. I always wondered what the US Team would be like if Soccer was as big here as it is elsewhere. Putting some of these NBA/NFL players on a soccer field would be interesting.
Nihilarian Posted August 24, 2016 Posted August 24, 2016 We disagree on point 1 which is fine. There is a lot of disagreement on the topic. I would rather have Watkins than Justin Gilbert and Cameron Erving. I would rather have Julio Jones than 2 firsts. Watkins floor was so high which is why I liked it. If his career was an absolute disaster he was a 1,000 yard receiver. His ceiling is closer to 2,000. You can argue that you need the QB first but I am never passing on that kind of talent because the qb isn't yet there. You get the best players when you have a chance. The 2nd point Bandit eloquently covered above. 1st in YPC without QB factored in. To the 3rd I agree that Urbik was an important part. Henderson was outplayed by Mills which is why he stuck. Henderson was not healthy though. They have the exact same tackles with one (CK) that has CLEARLY improved. The tackle situation should be better. Groy has had his moments and Velasco is experienced. Can one of those 2 be the swing guy on the inside equal to Urbik? We will see. By the same token there is no reason to expect that Miller will not improve in year 2. We agree on 4. I never said that maintaining a good line (and Kromer) isn't very important. You just don't need to spend 1st round picks to do so. The whole point was that you take guys that can effect games ON THEIR OWN in the 1st round, especially in the top 15 picks. The Bills line is very good right now. I believe that they were a top 10 unit last year and appear to have improved some. They are good enough to run the ball and to throw the ball down the field. That is the Bills offense so it is nice that they are able to get that done. Watkins may have 2000 yard seasons in his ceiling, I just kinda doubt we will ever see that in Rex's / Roman's power, run-first offense. Marrone ran that same run-centric offense in 2013, so I questioned the need for an elite WR costing that many resources. Plus, Sammy needs that elite QB that can throw enough to even get him the ball that much. Not to mention that although there were several attempts to upgrade the line in the 2014 draft and that really didn't succeed. Julio Jones in his 1871 yards receiving had a QB in Matt Ryan that threw for 4591 yards. Tyrod Taylor barely broke 3000 yards last season in 13 games and even in a 16 game scenario that's only around 3600 yards. Sammy might just have a Julio type season in him but we haven't seen it materialize just yet. So yeah, I agree that I think we will always disagree on this issue. The YPC Avg does show that the team still led the league in rushing with just the RB's. However, The Bills were still #1 in the league in rushing yards and the QB amassing 568 yards helped in that aspect. The sentence that was overlooked was the one stating that while the team led the league in big plays (runs of over 10 yards and pass plays over 25 yards) (Seems to me the fat guy the team just cut had a few of those runs over 10 yards.) Anyway, the bigger issue I mentioned was that in 2015 the offense was 31st in three and out percentage and that stat tells me the O-line wasn't as great as some make it out to be... A good Three-and-out Percentage suggests that a team is able to maintain possession of the football longer instead of quickly punting the ball away to the opposition. A bad percentage can indicate a team's offensive difficulty getting possessions off to a good start, or maintaining a sustained offense. The third point leaves me very skeptical due to the past history of backup linemen this team brings in year after year. Perhaps now with Kromer involved things will change for the better. I still have difficulty forgetting all the scrubby bums this team has attempted to get by with for so many years. Duke Preston-Langston Walker-Derrick Dockery-Demetress Bell- Kirk Chambers-Mansfield Wrotto-Cornel Green-Cordaro Howard-Ed Wang-Kyle Calloway-Chris Hairston-Sam Young-Chad Rinehart-Colin Brown-Chris Williams-David Snow-Doug Legursky-Zerbie Sanders-Mark Asper...and I'm sure there are others that I missed. In regards to #4 point, I think you do need to expend high picks on the offensive line and in particular the center, LG, and LT. RT and RG not so much with a right handed QB. Continuity is very important and if your team is going to be facing the very best defensive players in the post season. Well then, I would think you would want some of the best players protecting the QB. The Bills have a #1 at center and a #2 at LT. Incognito might be a 3rd rounder but he developed into solid pro bowler. HoF QB Jim Kelly had some of the best on the left side too and they were #1 picks. On the last point, I feel the Bills line on the left side is excellent and the right side is still very much unknown. Like you mentioned that defenses will move their best pass rushers towards the weakest players on that line. Granted Mills and Miller might just further develop into better starters this year. However, if they don't there could be serious problems protecting that young QB this season. I suppose I'm just jaded from the lack of QB success over the last 16 years with help from bad lines. Guess we need to wait and see in a few weeks.
GunnerBill Posted August 24, 2016 Posted August 24, 2016 I'm guessing some people know who Tim Henman is. Former six-time semi-finalist in tennis Grand Slams and a Silver medalist at the Atlanta Olympics. He used to get so much stick from fans and press alike because he only made semi-finals and only made it as high as #4 in the world (in an era with Agassi & Sampras). In a male population of 3 billion plus, being the 4th best at something isn't that bad. Ahhhh poor old Tim. Made the semis of all 4 slams in his career. That year when the rain came for Goran at Wimbledon... that was his chance. He was our best male tennis player in 60 years. Andy has surpassed him by some distance though and there is something much more endearing to me about a snarling, moody Scot than a nice, polite, middle-class Englishman. Andy Murray's mother however...... most annoying pushy parent in the world.
Saxum Posted August 24, 2016 Posted August 24, 2016 The third point leaves me very skeptical due to the past history of backup linemen this team brings in year after year. Perhaps now with Kromer involved things will change for the better. I still have difficulty forgetting all the scrubby bums this team has attempted to get by with for so many years. Duke Preston-Langston Walker-Derrick Dockery-Demetress Bell- Kirk Chambers-Mansfield Wrotto-Cornel Green-Cordaro Howard-Ed Wang-Kyle Calloway-Chris Hairston-Sam Young-Chad Rinehart-Colin Brown-Chris Williams-David Snow-Doug Legursky-Zerbie Sanders-Mark Asper...and I'm sure there are others that I missed. Chris Hairston was a good swing tackle for Bills and if he could have stayed healthy enough would have been starter.
GunnerBill Posted August 24, 2016 Posted August 24, 2016 I didn't mind Rinehart either, he was a solid enough swing guy inside. The rest of that list admittedly does suck.
C.Biscuit97 Posted August 24, 2016 Posted August 24, 2016 I played Soccer in college but had no illusions of going pro lol. It was so involved though and took up so much of my time I often wondered what it would have to be like for D1 Basketball/Football players. I love Soccer and by the end of the season I would be burnt out. It was beyond a full time job. I get Ricky Williams. Sometimes the fun gets taken out of the "game." These guys do have to pour everything in to it as you say. Now I ref and it has given me perspective for the guys in stripes. I have a hard time booing them. The rule books are so obnoxious for sports these days, the rules have the letter of the law and the spirit of them, fans don't know them as well as they think they do, and you have to rely on what you saw in full speed while everyone else gets the benefit of super slo-motion. I feel for some of them. Then there are guys who have it out for a team (yes it happens even in HS) a la Walt Coleman who I can't stand. Or guys who want it to be about them (Hochuli - although he is a good ref). I don't mind when those guys get some heat and yes Bobby Sura could ball! That is kind of my point though lol. A name that is likely forgotten by a majority of people was the best player on the court that day and it blew my mind lol. Gave me a much different perspective on the pro athlete (I was still in HS with delusions of grandeur ) Good post. I don't think most fans realize the life of a college football players. My average day in season would consist of team breakfast, film studies/ workout, classes, practice, study hall. Your day is essentially completely mapped out during the entire season. And I wasn't playing at Alabama, where you are under a total microscope. If I was at a bigger program and there was as much social media around, I would have been in a lot of trouble!
Kemp Posted August 24, 2016 Posted August 24, 2016 Why would we five anyone time to develop? We are knuckle dragging morons that make out mind up after one year! Two years?
Cover 1 Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 Kouandijo is the worse graded Bills player through two games a -4.6. -1.7 Pass blocking and -2.2.
Coach Tuesday Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 Kouandijo is the worse graded Bills player through two games a -4.6. -1.7 Pass blocking and -2.2. That's because he's still committing 3-5 horrible plays per game, both in run blocking and pass blocking. Which is very disturbing. But on the rest of the plays, he finally looks competent. It's very odd - I can't figure out if it's mental or physical. Although he still looks like a human hinge at times - on that Vernon sack, he just folded over into himself. Strange player, hard to evaluate.
Kirby Jackson Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 Kouandijo is the worse graded Bills player through two games a -4.6. -1.7 Pass blocking and -2.2.The only thing that I will say to that is that he looked worse last year against 3's. At least he's with the 1's. I don't think that anyone thinks that he's a star but if he is your 3rd or 4th OT you are okay.
YattaOkasan Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 Some very good discussion. I am not so sure you can just move your strongest players to align against the OL weakest players. I think that leaves you susceptible to a lot. The offense can easily check into plays away from those strong D players and run behind their horses (blocking the backside is easier). Additionally, if these awesome D players are overly aggressive you can take advantage of that. I think the chess match is much more nuanced then "Oh you have a good LT, LG; then I'm going to move my awesome DE, OLB to the other side." Also I missed the connection between poor three and out performance and poor OL performance. Why are the skill players not indicted in that poor performance? I think I understand the connection but I think that may have been a reach.
Kirby Jackson Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 (edited) Some very good discussion. I am not so sure you can just move your strongest players to align against the OL weakest players. I think that leaves you susceptible to a lot. The offense can easily check into plays away from those strong D players and run behind their horses (blocking the backside is easier). Additionally, if these awesome D players are overly aggressive you can take advantage of that. I think the chess match is much more nuanced then "Oh you have a good LT, LG; then I'm going to move my awesome DE, OLB to the other side." Also I missed the connection between poor three and out performance and poor OL performance. Why are the skill players not indicted in that poor performance? I think I understand the connection but I think that may have been a reach. The moral of the story is that you don't need to game plan for a great OL. You need to scheme to stop a great pass rusher, or skill player. That's kind of how "Revis Island" was born. He took away half the field. If JJ Watt is going against a great OT you can move him around to keep him effective. You can't move Tyron Smith around to match up with Watt like you can a corner. Smith is dependent on the play of his entire unit to be effective. He cannot take over a game individually. His unit can be dominant and control a game but he can't alone. Watt (as an example) did that 2 years ago in Houston. The poor 3 and outs is a reflection of everyone. I agree with that. The point was that I would only draft LT in the 1st round and not in the 1st 15 picks. Those slots have to be guys that can win on their own. It'd be about once every 5 years on ILB too in the top 15 and never on a space eating DT. You need playmakers there. Edited August 25, 2016 by Kirby Jackson
Recommended Posts