Jason Cole report on Doug Whaley

[BADOLBILZ]

A few other good examples would come from the the other team that played in the Super Bowl. Denver drafted Shane Ray when they already had Miller and Ware. They also drafted Bradley Roby while having CHJ and Talib. Both of those were first round picks.

 

 

Exactly.

 

This is lost on a lot of people here.

 

Serviceable starters don't win you titles and the "well we have 5 or 6 star players now so we can use prime draft picks to patch holes" mentality is shortsighted and often leads to complete whiffs like Kujo or the Troupacabra.

[CommonCents]

 

 

Exactly.

 

This is lost on a lot of people here.

 

Serviceable starters don't win you titles and the "well we have 5 or 6 star players now so we can use prime draft picks to patch holes" mentality is shortsighted and often leads to complete whiffs like Kujo or the Troupacabra.

The odds are probably pretty slim that the best player on the board is your biggest position of need, when that happens in consecutive rounds your probably paddling full steam up ***** creek and over valuing guys that fit your biggest need.

 

Heck even the Jets knew that the kid from USC was too much of a beast to pass up on while already having Richardson and Wilkerson. Even the JETS. Ew.

[BADOLBILZ]

The odds are probably pretty slim that the best player on the board is your biggest position of need, when that happens in consecutive rounds your probably paddling full steam up ***** creek and over valuing guys that fit your biggest need.

 

 

 

Poignant. That about sums it up.

[Jauronimo]

 

i can tell you what Jason Cole alleges is implicitly not true in regards to ownership and executive management.

what Cole suggests is "many people," which is a very easy out to protect himself from being challenged, and a sweeping generalization that is unprovable. it's irresponsible journalism on Cole's part.

Absolutely irresponsible to hide behind one or perhaps three sources and make this allegation.

 

This type of reporting embarrasses us all in the business..

 

jw

I know its a 180 from how you earn your living, but I would love to see what you could "report" if you weren't held to the standard of actual journalism and were so inclined and free to report what you know is true but fails to meet the level of professionalism expected of someone in your line of work.

 

Great stuff.

[BADOLBILZ]

 

i can tell you what Jason Cole alleges is implicitly not true in regards to ownership and executive management.

what Cole suggests is "many people," which is a very easy out to protect himself from being challenged, and a sweeping generalization that is unprovable. it's irresponsible journalism on Cole's part.

Absolutely irresponsible to hide behind one or perhaps three sources and make this allegation.

 

This type of reporting embarrasses us all in the business..

 

jw

 

Yeah if Russ felt that way you probably would have heard about it when he had a few too many drinks and got loud like when he spilled the beans about the Toronto deal being cancelled and got mad at TBN for letting the news slip before he could hold a PC.

 

If the Pegula's felt that way about Whaley they would be keeping him at arms length, which they aren't.

 

But if you are a scout in this organization and your team is reaching around your evaluations to fill holes and making you look bad.......well there is one area where unhappiness with Whaley could be an issue....and scouts are often sources.

[Delete This Account]

 

Yeah if Russ felt that way you probably would have heard about it when he had a few too many drinks and got loud like when he spilled the beans about the Toronto deal being cancelled and got mad at TBN for letting the news slip before he could hold a PC.

 

If the Pegula's felt that way about Whaley they would be keeping him at arms length, which they aren't.

 

But if you are a scout in this organization and your team is reaching around your evaluations to fill holes and making you look bad.......well there is one area where unhappiness with Whaley could be an issue....and scouts are often sources.

 

stop that. the AP was the first to report that the Pegulas were cancelling the Toronto series by actually quoting Terry Pegula himself.

 

as for whether or not scouts are mad, it may or may not be true. but it's also immaterial based on the slam-job jason cole projects to suggest. show proof, and meet the standard of journalism rather than hide behind the veil of anonymity to make spurious claims that cannot be verified.

 

jw

I know its a 180 from how you earn your living, but I would love to see what you could "report" if you weren't held to the standard of actual journalism and were so inclined and free to report what you know is true but fails to meet the level of professionalism expected of someone in your line of work.

 

Great stuff.

 

i report based on the standards and accepted practices of the AP based on what we are allowed to report in citing unnamed sources.

at no point -- NEVER -- would i be allowed to cite a source sharing his or her opinion in questioning or disparaging someone's worth based on unfounded speculation. we at the AP just don't allow sources to go off and elicit smear jobs. that's unfair to the people being challenged.

 

if someone wants to attack or question a person's reputation, then it is up to them to have the courage to stand up and have their name attached to their comments.

period.

 

jw

[GunnerBill]

i report based on the standards and accepted practices of the AP based on what we are allowed to report in citing unnamed sources.

at no point -- NEVER -- would i be allowed to cite a source sharing his or her opinion in questioning or disparaging someone's worth based on unfounded speculation. we at the AP just don't allow sources to go off and elicit smear jobs. that's unfair to the people being challenged.

 

if someone wants to attack or question a person's reputation, then it is up to them to have the courage to stand up and have their name attached to their comments.

period.

 

jw

Well said John.

 

As for Badol's other point about reaching for fuys perceived as role players to fill holes.... there is something in that. Kujo was undoubtedly a pick for need. I think Robert Woods in 2014 (the Nix / Whaley whodunnit draft) is another example. Woods hasn't been a bust by any means but he is a role playing number 2 rather than a gamebreaker and I think that was because they were looking for someone to start opposite Stevie immediately. He was a high floor, low ceiling "pro-ready" guy.

 

I do defend Whaley overall though. I think he has done a pretty good job and in this year's draft I honestly do think in the 1st round need and best player just aligned nicely. Shaq was sticking out on my board at the point we picked him and I do have confidence that once he is on the field the kid will be a game changer.

 

In the 2nd they obviously were looking for need which is why they went up for Reggie. When he is healthy Reggie Ragland will be a solid NFL starter for a long time but I think he is akin to Robert Woods in that sense.

[purple haze]

 

Players get hurt. Draft picks get hurt. Sometimes you get unlucky. But it's not luck when you use your first round pick on a player who is already injured. Ragland was bad luck. Lawson was a bad decision.

Not a bad decision. He fit what they want to do on defense. The thought was that he could put off any surgeries. Turns out he couldn't. He will play this season by all accounts. And as a first rounder he's under contract for up to 5 years if the Bills pick up his 4th year option. The Bills will have games next year, the year after and so on. GM's draft for now and later.

 

Missing 6-8 games stinks, true enough. But what about the other 8-10 he will be available this season and the multiple games into the future?

 

In the 2nd they obviously were looking for need which is why they went up for Reggie. When he is healthy Reggie Ragland will be a solid NFL starter for a long time but I think he is akin to Robert Woods in that sense.

I think they thought Ragland, available in the 2nd, was value that matched a need. By many accounts he had a first round grade. I think Whaley/Rex look at Ragland as more than a solid pro. We shall see, but I think they think of him as a difference maker.

[White Linen]

The odds are probably pretty slim that the best player on the board is your biggest position of need, when that happens in consecutive rounds your probably paddling full steam up ***** creek and over valuing guys that fit your biggest need.

 

Heck even the Jets knew that the kid from USC was too much of a beast to pass up on while already having Richardson and Wilkerson. Even the JETS. Ew.

 

You do realize we traded up to get Ragland, right? So he wasn't the "next player on the board". You're a coward hiding behind your projections of Shaq and Ragland because you know they can't play right now. Your BS is boring.

[GunnerBill]

 

Not a bad decision. He fit what they want to do on defense. The thought was that he could put off any surgeries. Turns out he couldn't. He will play this season by all accounts. And as a first rounder he's under contract for up to 5 years if the Bills pick up his 4th year option. The Bills will have games next year, the year after and so on. GM's draft for now and later.

 

Missing 6-8 games stinks, true enough. But what about the other 8-10 he will be available this season and the multiple games into the future?

 

I think they thought Ragland, available in the 2nd, was value that matched a need. By many accounts he had a first round grade. I think Whaley/Rex look at Ragland as more than a solid pro. We shall see, but I think they think of him as a difference maker.

I agree with you entirely on Lawson. In fact that they were willing to take him knowing that the shoulder would at some point need surgery tells you that they picked him for the long term and not for a short term need. I was very high on Shaq pre-draft to me when he was there at 19 it was no brainer.

 

On Ragland of course OBD might be right he might be a difference maker. I have my doubts and would have hated taking him at #19. I was okay with taking him in round 2 even with the trade up cost but I wouldn't say I loved the pick because I do think it is a high floor, low ceiling impact now guy.

Edited August 11, 2016 by GunnerBill

[machine gun kelly]

If you ever listen to a somewhat unbiased source with the analysts on NFLR, they will commonly report most of the NFL is thin at depth because of the CBA. Between free agency, rookie contracts, and the escalating vet minimums for older players, it forces teams to continue to stay young to pay the marquee salaries to the stars of each team.

 

So basically in order to pay the Dareus type contracts or lose these players, or on other teams, top QB's, the older serviceable players get worked out of the league faster. Teams can no longer afford many 10 year players who could provide depth because the CBA forces the team to pay a certain wage, so it's much cheaper to keep using younger players to fill in the back up spots. It's a very logical argument, but the consequence is teams like the Ravens last year with those injuries cannot overcome them and they had a down year. The Bills had a lot of soft tissue injuries last year that I believe cost us a couple of games.

 

Is Whaley perfect? No, but he's made a number of good moves that continues to build up this team. He also places a value on certain players and not over paying for them. Think about how poorly Spiller, and Byrd have done with high contracts. That's due to good decisions by our front office knowing when to let a player go as well as finding gems like the Hughes trade. He's made mistakes like all other GM's. I just remember an interview by HIF GM Bill Polian, who stated his hit rate lifetime was 57% by his own analysis.

 

So I don't love Whaley, but I like him, and the continuity we've had over the Nix to Whaley years as it has made our team better. Just put in perspective how bad and untalented we were from 2000-2010. Coaching and Mgmt was a revolving door for a decade.

[eball]

 

 

Exactly.

 

This is lost on a lot of people here.

 

Serviceable starters don't win you titles and the "well we have 5 or 6 star players now so we can use prime draft picks to patch holes" mentality is shortsighted and often leads to complete whiffs like Kujo or the Troupacabra.

 

Really? Still bemoaning Torrell Troupe? You guys are so overblowing this "reaching for need" issue. KuJo appears to have been a whiff but EJ was a calculated gamble that yielded extra picks that yielded Shady, Woods was considered by everyone to be the most pro-ready receiver in his draft, Sammy is a bonafide star, Darby is right behind him, and the guys this year are unknowns because of injury. In the first round you're looking for a potential star. In the 2nd round you're looking for a dependable starter. In the 3rd round and later you're "hoping." Where have the Bills run afoul of that strategy?

 

The armchair GMs crack me up -- again, I wonder why most of you aren't working for an NFL team with all of your wisdom.

[GunnerBill]

 

Woods was considered by everyone to be the most pro-ready receiver in his draft.

 

But that is part of what Badol is criticising. He is saying just looking for the most pro-ready because you need the guy to start NOW is not a good strategy. His contention is that you should be looking for the player with the highest ceiling at an impact position and not saying "we haven't got a receiver to start opposite Stevie, who is the best in this class to come in and play?"

 

Personally, whilst I take Badol's point and I think Kujo is a classic example of where that strategy really failed, I do generally agree with your contention that the 2nd round is where you look for solid, long term starters. If you are hitting on your first round pick that should be where your big difference makers are and then you hope to supplement with your 2nd and 3rd round guys, the odd hit in later rounds and people you pick up in FA.

[FireChan]

If you ever listen to a somewhat unbiased source with the analysts on NFLR, they will commonly report most of the NFL is thin at depth because of the CBA. Between free agency, rookie contracts, and the escalating vet minimums for older players, it forces teams to continue to stay young to pay the marquee salaries to the stars of each team.

 

So basically in order to pay the Dareus type contracts or lose these players, or on other teams, top QB's, the older serviceable players get worked out of the league faster. Teams can no longer afford many 10 year players who could provide depth because the CBA forces the team to pay a certain wage, so it's much cheaper to keep using younger players to fill in the back up spots. It's a very logical argument, but the consequence is teams like the Ravens last year with those injuries cannot overcome them and they had a down year. The Bills had a lot of soft tissue injuries last year that I believe cost us a couple of games.

 

Is Whaley perfect? No, but he's made a number of good moves that continues to build up this team. He also places a value on certain players and not over paying for them. Think about how poorly Spiller, and Byrd have done with high contracts. That's due to good decisions by our front office knowing when to let a player go as well as finding gems like the Hughes trade. He's made mistakes like all other GM's. I just remember an interview by HIF GM Bill Polian, who stated his hit rate lifetime was 57% by his own analysis.

 

So I don't love Whaley, but I like him, and the continuity we've had over the Nix to Whaley years as it has made our team better. Just put in perspective how bad and untalented we were from 2000-2010. Coaching and Mgmt was a revolving door for a decade.

Whaley tried to sign both Spiller and Byrd.

 

Really? Still bemoaning Torrell Troupe? You guys are so overblowing this "reaching for need" issue. KuJo appears to have been a whiff but EJ was a calculated gamble that yielded extra picks that yielded Shady, Woods was considered by everyone to be the most pro-ready receiver in his draft, Sammy is a bonafide star, Darby is right behind him, and the guys this year are unknowns because of injury. In the first round you're looking for a potential star. In the 2nd round you're looking for a dependable starter. In the 3rd round and later you're "hoping." Where have the Bills run afoul of that strategy?

 

The armchair GMs crack me up -- again, I wonder why most of you aren't working for an NFL team with all of your wisdom.

Can you rectify why Woods was the 4th or 5th WR off the board even though he was so "pro-ready?"

[Dorkington]

 

stop that. the AP was the first to report that the Pegulas were cancelling the Toronto series by actually quoting Terry Pegula himself.

 

as for whether or not scouts are mad, it may or may not be true. but it's also immaterial based on the slam-job jason cole projects to suggest. show proof, and meet the standard of journalism rather than hide behind the veil of anonymity to make spurious claims that cannot be verified.

 

jw

 

i report based on the standards and accepted practices of the AP based on what we are allowed to report in citing unnamed sources.

at no point -- NEVER -- would i be allowed to cite a source sharing his or her opinion in questioning or disparaging someone's worth based on unfounded speculation. we at the AP just don't allow sources to go off and elicit smear jobs. that's unfair to the people being challenged.

 

if someone wants to attack or question a person's reputation, then it is up to them to have the courage to stand up and have their name attached to their comments.

period.

 

jw

I'm glad you're around, John.

[BarleyNY]

 

 

Not a bad decision. He fit what they want to do on defense. The thought was that he could put off any surgeries. Turns out he couldn't. He will play this season by all accounts. And as a first rounder he's under contract for up to 5 years if the Bills pick up his 4th year option. The Bills will have games next year, the year after and so on. GM's draft for now and later.p

Missing 6-8 games stinks, true enough. But what about the other 8-10 he will be available this season and the multiple games into the future?  

 

Shaq will be eligible to come back to practice after week 6 and its jumping the gun to say that's a given. When he does get back he will not have had an NFL practice under his belt and he will be nowhere near game ready from either a physical or mental standpoint. That will take time. So don't expect much out of him this season. The best case scenario for him is to get him healthy and get him some experience by easing him into the lineup situationally.

 

He may very well go on to have an excellent career here in Buffalo and if he does his selection will be hailed as a good pick. I'll be happy that it worked out, but I'll still disagree with selecting an injured Shaq Lawson at 19 overall (though I thought it was a very good pick when I thought he was healthy). I'm not knocking Lawson here, I like him a lot as a player. I'm knocking Whaley. If you're going to select an injured player, then you've got to get that player at a discount. He didn't do that, despite what some here are saying after the fact.

[YattaOkasan]

Shaq will be eligible to come back to practice after week 6 and its jumping the gun to say that's a given. When he does get back he will not have had an NFL practice under his belt and he will be nowhere near game ready from either a physical or mental standpoint. That will take time. So don't expect much out of him this season. The best case scenario for him is to get him healthy and get him some experience by easing him into the lineup situationally.

 

He may very well go on to have an excellent career here in Buffalo and if he does his selection will be hailed as a good pick. I'll be happy that it worked out, but I'll still disagree with selecting an injured Shaq Lawson at 19 overall (though I thought it was a very good pick when I thought he was healthy). I'm not knocking Lawson here, I like him a lot as a player. I'm knocking Whaley. If you're going to select an injured player, then you've got to get that player at a discount. He didn't do that, despite what some here are saying after the fact.

Thats a tough game to play. They looked for trading partners to move down. There was nothing there that they thought represented value. They took the guy they thought would be the best despite the injury (I'm assuming they knew about the injury). Whaley tried to move back, but couldn't get a good deal. They may not have presented it this way, BUT it fits Badol's idea. We used our first on player at a premium position, and he should get at least half a season to develop a little (at least mentally).

[eball]

 

But that is part of what Badol is criticising. He is saying just looking for the most pro-ready because you need the guy to start NOW is not a good strategy. His contention is that you should be looking for the player with the highest ceiling at an impact position and not saying "we haven't got a receiver to start opposite Stevie, who is the best in this class to come in and play?"

 

Personally, whilst I take Badol's point and I think Kujo is a classic example of where that strategy really failed, I do generally agree with your contention that the 2nd round is where you look for solid, long term starters. If you are hitting on your first round pick that should be where your big difference makers are and then you hope to supplement with your 2nd and 3rd round guys, the odd hit in later rounds and people you pick up in FA.

 

Everything about Robert Woods coming out of college screamed "dependable starter" so it wasn't a reach no matter how you slice it. If they took him in the first round I'd see the point.

[May Day 10]

Is there somebody higher up in the Bills organization who leaks these things?

 

It seems like there is a constant leaky pipe somewhere stirring the pot.... whether it was how there was conflict between Marrone and the 'lifers', or how EJ was poised to take over starting QB permanently in London, or talking badly about Polian.... etc. If I sat and gave it a lot of thought, I could think of a dozen things. Whaley seems like a very consistent victim/target of these 'leaks'.

[YoloinOhio]

Is there somebody higher up in the Bills organization who leaks these things?

 

It seems like there is a constant leaky pipe somewhere stirring the pot.... whether it was how there was conflict between Marrone and the 'lifers', or how EJ was poised to take over starting QB permanently in London, or talking badly about Polian.... etc. If I sat and gave it a lot of thought, I could think of a dozen things. Whaley seems like a very consistent victim/target of these 'leaks'.

i agree. Between Cole and lacanfora there is a mole somewhere who has it out for Whaley. Oh, and occasionally he talks to carucci too it seems.