Jason Cole report on Doug Whaley

[nucci]

the medical staff is a bigger problem than Whaley

because players are getting injured? Check around training camps....there are many player hurt....some are out the entire season.....

[Jauronimo]

 

Again...it's mind-numbing the 2013 QB situation could be justified at all. Kolb went down early and we essentially were down to just EJ. He had plenty of time (an entire season) to fill the roster with QB's other than Thad Lewis and Jeff Tuel.

No, its not. EJ was drafted in April. Tuel was drafted in April. Kolb went down August 24th. That's 2 weeks before the season started. Two weeks before the season isn't early. Lewis was signed on August 25th. Leinart was signed at the same time. Matt Flynn was brought in after that. There are ZERO QBs in the league that can be signed midseason that represent better options than the guys who were already on your roster and participated in camp, which is why Tuel ultimately started a game.

 

Familiarize yourself with the facts and lose the agenda.

[Alphadawg7]

I posted this in the Ragland thread, but I suppose it belongs here...

 

The rookie injuries are bad luck, but Whaley has been really short-sighted with a lot of moves and these types of injuries shouldn't be so crippling. We never seem to have a back-up plan and have been put in bad situations by a lack of depth. Jeff Tuel started a game at QB. When Kyle Williams and Aaron Williams went down with injury, it was the theme of the season. No one stepped up and dominated in those roles because we had no depth to fill those spots. Our current WR depth is questionable, and I don't know who Whaley could possibly blame for that.

 

I'm still on the fence with Whaley, but I feel like he needs to be better prepared. Even though he is a great player, the decision to move up to get Watkins looks more like a Detroit Lions move every year. I don't know how a team with no depth can afford to be throwing 1st round picks out the window, and that is a prime example of the nearsightedness I'm referring to.

 

While I get your post, here is why its wrong IMO.

 

Offense: Last year we lost our starting QB, starting OL, all of our top 5 WRs, all of our top 4 RBs, and our starting TE to injury for parts or all of the season. Thats every single playmaker, all of the playmakers backups, and key members of the OL. And when many of those guys were on the field, they were playing hurt as some of the injuries either A) Lingered like McCoys Hammy or B) Wouldn't heal because they had to keep playing through due to other guys being out.

 

Defense: We lost key players like AW and KW for the season, saw other miss time or play hurt as well.

 

So here is my question: What was our Record last year despite a ridiculous amount of injuries to all of our best players and key starters?

 

That answer was 8-8. You don't get to 8-8 with those amount of injuries without having depth and finding key values off the street and value in the draft. We had guys like Karlos and Darby come in out of last years draft and be critical in our ability to deal with injuries to the guys who were ahead of them on the depth chart. We had guys no one had ever heard of come in on off the street at key positions like RB (we are a run first team) and fill in because all 3 of our main RBs were out in the same game.

 

Whaley found those guys...Whaley drafted those guys. But now all of a sudden we have 2 bad luck situations with our top rookies and people suddenly think he's done a bad job? Not to mention, look at the guys filling in for Rags and Shaq, they are having GREAT camps and frequently are highlighted as having the best day overall throughout the roster. He found what looks like good value again in those guys and the guys we signed like Spikes to fill in.

 

If there is one thing Whaley has PROVEN over and over again, is his ability to find value in the places its usually the hardest too...mid to late draft picks, undrafted rookies, underrated FA's, and guys who havent signed with other teams yet.

 

You want to look at what happens when teams lose key players at a LESSER extent than we did, then go look at Dallas and Baltimore. Baltimore was bad BEFORE Flacco went down because it lost weapons at WR, RB and then eventually Flacco himself. Dallas is terrible when Dez is out...its terrible when Romo is out...its atrocious when they are both out. How many games did Dallas win last year? How many games did Baltimore win last year? Both supposed to be in the playoffs, both had LESS injuries than we did, yet we had more wins them both of them combined last year.

 

Whaley has done a great job...they knew the risk with Shaq, and honestly, if the player is that good, you don't pass on him because he might miss half a season. If Bruce Smith had the same situation and was available in the same spot, you DONT pass on him because he might have to miss 6 games with a NON career threatening injury. Now if its one that might shorten or damage his career, then thats a different scenario, but that was NEVER the case with Shaq's questionable shoulder situation in the draft.

 

Good job Whaley, and I am thrilled you were extended and IMO are one the top 10 GM's in football right now.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Alphadawg7

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

No, its not. EJ was drafted in April. Tuel was drafted in April. Kolb went down August 24th. That's 2 weeks before the season started. Two weeks before the season isn't early. Lewis was signed on August 25th. Leinart was signed at the same time. Matt Flynn was brought in after that. There are ZERO QBs in the league that can be signed midseason that represent better options than the guys who were already on your roster and participated in camp, which is why Tuel ultimately started a game.

 

Familiarize yourself with the facts and lose the agenda.

 

Similar situations have happened to other teams around the league - Josh Freeman game in Minnesota. Matt Cassels run in Dallas. Schaub/Mallet in baltimore.

[FireChan]

 

While I get your post, here is why its wrong IMO.

 

Offense: Last year we lost our starting QB, starting OL, all of our top 5 WRs, all of our top 4 RBs, and our starting TE to injury for parts or all of the season. Thats every single playmaker, all of the playmakers backups, and key members of the OL. And when many of those guys were on the field, they were playing hurt as some of the injuries either A) Lingered like McCoys Hammy or B) Wouldn't heal because they had to keep playing through due to other guys being out.

 

Defense: We lost key players like AW and KW for the season, saw other miss time or play hurt as well.

 

So here is my question: What was our Record last year despite a ridiculous amount of injuries to all of our best players and key starters?

 

That answer was 8-8. You don't get to 8-8 with those amount of injuries without having depth and finding key values off the street and value in the draft. We had guys like Karlos and Darby come in out of last years draft and be critical in our ability to deal with injuries to the guys who were ahead of them on the depth chart. We had guys no one had ever heard of come in on off the street at key positions like RB (we are a run first team) and fill in because all 3 of our main RBs were out in the same game.

 

Whaley found those guys...Whaley drafted those guys. But now all of a sudden we have 2 bad luck situations with our top rookies and people suddenly think he's done a bad job? Not to mention, look at the guys filling in for Rags and Shaq, they are having GREAT camps and frequently are highlighted as having the best day overall throughout the roster. He found what looks like good value again in those guys and the guys we signed like Spikes to fill in.

 

If there is one thing Whaley has PROVEN over and over again, is his ability to find value in the places its usually the hardest too...mid to late draft picks, undrafted rookies, underrated FA's, and guys who havent signed with other teams yet.

 

You want to look at what happens when teams lose key players at a LESSER extent than we did, then go look at Dallas and Baltimore. Baltimore was bad BEFORE Flacco went down because it lost weapons at WR, RB and then eventually Flacco himself. Dallas is terrible when Dez is out...its terrible when Romo is out...its atrocious when they are both out. How many games did Dallas win last year? How many games did Baltimore win last year? Both supposed to be in the playoffs, both had LESS injuries than we did, yet we had more wins them both of them combined last year.

 

Whaley has done a great job...they knew the risk with Shaq, and honestly, if the player is that good, you don't pass on him because he might miss half a season. If Bruce Smith had the same situation and was available in the same spot, you DONT pass on him because he might have to miss 6 games with a NON career threatening injury. Now if its one that might shorten or damage his career, then thats a different scenario, but that was NEVER the case with Shaq's questionable shoulder situation in the draft.

 

Good job Whaley, and I am thrilled you were extended and IMO are one the top 10 GM's in football right now.

Shaq Lawson is not and will never be Bruce Smith. Stop with this comparison. They play the same position. That's all they have in common.

[BarleyNY]

Players get hurt. Draft picks get hurt. Sometimes you get unlucky. But it's not luck when you use your first round pick on a player who is already injured. Ragland was bad luck. Lawson was a bad decision.

[Jauronimo]

 

Similar situations have happened to other teams around the league - Josh Freeman game in Minnesota. Matt Cassels run in Dallas. Schaub/Mallet in baltimore.

Yeah, that was my point. Do you recall how well those moves worked out?

[Malazan]

The Bills were 10th (171) last season in man games lost last season. The season before that they were 28th (138) in man games lost. Two seasons ago they were 19th (154). So the theory that the Bills are somehow experiencing a greater number of injuries looks to be more perception than reality.

[Captain Hindsight]

I'm torn on Whaley.

 

Sometimes i think he is so close to being a great executive and other times I'm questioning his judgement. On the whole, I see much more good than bad. The number of blue chip players on the roster is the highest its been in years.

 

The O line hasn't been ignored

We have good RBs

Sammy is a stud.

Darby was a good find

Kiko for mcCoy was a great deal

Upgrading the TE position with Clay

 

Besides LB, I dont see a major hole anywhere on the roster and thats more due to injuries than anything IMO

[eball]

The Bills were 10th (171) last season in man games lost last season. The season before that they were 28th (138) in man games lost. Two seasons ago they were 19th (154). So the theory that the Bills are somehow experiencing a greater number of injuries looks to be more perception than reality.

 

What the hell is a "man game" -- a starter? Need some context. Every game lost isn't equal if you're comparing starters and bench players.

[Alphadawg7]

Shaq Lawson is not and will never be Bruce Smith. Stop with this comparison. They play the same position. That's all they have in common.

 

So out of all I wrote, the only thing you got out of that is something I didn't say? I didn't compare them as players or even imply Shaq is the next Bruce Smith. If you could draft Bruce Smith under the same scenario, no one in their right mind pass Bruce over missing his first 6 weeks as a rookie. In other words, if you as a team believe the prospect on the board is the best guy available and the guy you covet and believe to be a great prospect, you don't pass on him over the possibility of a NON career threatening injury that MAY or MAY not make him miss a few games.

 

I don't know why it surprises me that people would read that and twist it to mean that I somehow just compared a kid who's never played a down to being as good as Bruce Smith. This is literally why I post here so little anymore because its almost impossible to have real dialogue without people twisting things to the absurd.

The Bills were 10th (171) last season in man games lost last season. The season before that they were 28th (138) in man games lost. Two seasons ago they were 19th (154). So the theory that the Bills are somehow experiencing a greater number of injuries looks to be more perception than reality.

 

Except those numbers have little relevance to the significance of the players lost. If the Cowboys only lost 2 players...their injury number looks pretty good...but when those 2 players are Romo and Dez, guess what, they pick in the top 3.

 

So its not about sheer numbers, its who gets hurt which is why its so annoying when people use the dumb blanket statement of "all teams have injuries".

 

So let me make this very easy to understand statement VERY clear: NOT all teams injuries are EQUAL. if a team loses a bunch of 2nd and third tier players...thats easier to over come than a team losing a few quality starters or great players. If two teams lose 10 players each...but one of those teams is Balt and they lose Flacco, Forsett, Smith, and their #1 draft pick among those 10, while the other team lost a few backups, ST guys and a KR...who do you think is going to struggle more?

 

The ONLY...and literally THE ONLY way to weigh a teams injury situations is not in group stats of how many, but on a team by team and case by case basis based on the players lost. This is indisputable.

 

How anyone can brush off the fact we lost our starting QB, all of our RBs on our roster, all 5 of our top 5 WR's, our ace ST player (also a WR), our starting TE, and key OL players is beyond me and thats not even discussing our D side of the ball.

[eball]

This is literally why I post here so little anymore because its almost impossible to have real dialogue without people twisting things to the absurd.

 

FireChan's a pro at it. There are others.

[FireChan]

 

So out of all I wrote, the only thing you got out of that is something I didn't say? I didn't compare them as players or even imply Shaq is the next Bruce Smith. If you could draft Bruce Smith under the same scenario, no one in their right mind pass Bruce over missing his first 6 weeks as a rookie. In other words, if you as a team believe the prospect on the board is the best guy available and the guy you covet and believe to be a great prospect, you don't pass on him over the possibility of a NON career threatening injury that MAY or MAY not make him miss a few games.

 

I don't know why it surprises me that people would read that and twist it to mean that I somehow just compared a kid who's never played a down to being as good as Bruce Smith. This is literally why I post here so little anymore because its almost impossible to have real dialogue without people twisting things to the absurd.

 

 

Except those numbers have little relevance to the significance of the players lost. If the Cowboys only lost 2 players...their injury number looks pretty good...but when those 2 players are Romo and Dez, guess what, they pick in the top 3.

 

So its not about sheer numbers, its who gets hurt which is why its so annoying when people use the dumb blanket statement of "all teams have injuries".

 

So let me make this very easy to understand statement VERY clear: NOT all teams injuries are EQUAL. if a team loses a bunch of 2nd and third tier players...thats easier to over come than a team losing a few quality starters or great players. If two teams lose 10 players each...but one of those teams is Balt and they lose Flacco, Forsett, Smith, and their #1 draft pick among those 10, while the other team lost a few backups, ST guys and a KR...who do you think is going to struggle more?

 

The ONLY...and literally THE ONLY way to weigh a teams injury situations is not in group stats of how many, but on a team by team and case by case basis based on the players lost. This is indisputable.

 

How anyone can brush off the fact we lost our starting QB, all of our RBs on our roster, all 5 of our top 5 WR's, our ace ST player (also a WR), our starting TE, and key OL players is beyond me and thats not even discussing our D side of the ball.

That's literally exactly what you said. Bruce Smith is not in that scenario you mentioned, Shaq Lawson is. They aren't even comparable as college prospects. It doesn't matter what you would do if Bruce was in that scanerio, because that has no bearing on what you'd do with a lesser player.

 

It's a bad comparison and a bad argument. I didn't twist anything that you didn't say yourself.

[BuffaloBill]

This is B.S. the Bills likely knew Lawson would require surgery this year and Ragland was a fluke injury.

[Ronin]

@jasoncoleBR

Insider Buzz: Whaley's Draft History Has Bills Questioning Latest Extension

 

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/2656917-insider-buzz-whaleys-draft-history-has-bills-questioning-latest-extension?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=share&utm_campaign=web-mob-art-vid-144

 

It should have been questioned before the ink had dried.

 

Manuel, 2 1st's and a 4th for Watkins, Shaq Lawson's situation which was entirely predictable except to Whaley apologists.

 

But wait, Pegula only gave it to him so that he could fire him and Ryan while on the same timeline. Who actually believes this nonsense.

 

That GM effectiveness exercise that Pro Football Weekly did revealed Whaley as the worst GM in modern Bills history, using the criteria that they laid out which was sound.

 

Which of Whaley's 9 lives is he currently on.

[K-9]

 

While I get your post, here is why its wrong IMO.

 

Offense: Last year we lost our starting QB, starting OL, all of our top 5 WRs, all of our top 4 RBs, and our starting TE to injury for parts or all of the season. Thats every single playmaker, all of the playmakers backups, and key members of the OL. And when many of those guys were on the field, they were playing hurt as some of the injuries either A) Lingered like McCoys Hammy or B) Wouldn't heal because they had to keep playing through due to other guys being out.

 

Defense: We lost key players like AW and KW for the season, saw other miss time or play hurt as well.

 

So here is my question: What was our Record last year despite a ridiculous amount of injuries to all of our best players and key starters?

 

That answer was 8-8. You don't get to 8-8 with those amount of injuries without having depth and finding key values off the street and value in the draft. We had guys like Karlos and Darby come in out of last years draft and be critical in our ability to deal with injuries to the guys who were ahead of them on the depth chart. We had guys no one had ever heard of come in on off the street at key positions like RB (we are a run first team) and fill in because all 3 of our main RBs were out in the same game.

 

Whaley found those guys...Whaley drafted those guys. But now all of a sudden we have 2 bad luck situations with our top rookies and people suddenly think he's done a bad job? Not to mention, look at the guys filling in for Rags and Shaq, they are having GREAT camps and frequently are highlighted as having the best day overall throughout the roster. He found what looks like good value again in those guys and the guys we signed like Spikes to fill in.

 

If there is one thing Whaley has PROVEN over and over again, is his ability to find value in the places its usually the hardest too...mid to late draft picks, undrafted rookies, underrated FA's, and guys who havent signed with other teams yet.

 

You want to look at what happens when teams lose key players at a LESSER extent than we did, then go look at Dallas and Baltimore. Baltimore was bad BEFORE Flacco went down because it lost weapons at WR, RB and then eventually Flacco himself. Dallas is terrible when Dez is out...its terrible when Romo is out...its atrocious when they are both out. How many games did Dallas win last year? How many games did Baltimore win last year? Both supposed to be in the playoffs, both had LESS injuries than we did, yet we had more wins them both of them combined last year.

 

Whaley has done a great job...they knew the risk with Shaq, and honestly, if the player is that good, you don't pass on him because he might miss half a season. If Bruce Smith had the same situation and was available in the same spot, you DONT pass on him because he might have to miss 6 games with a NON career threatening injury. Now if its one that might shorten or damage his career, then thats a different scenario, but that was NEVER the case with Shaq's questionable shoulder situation in the draft.

 

Good job Whaley, and I am thrilled you were extended and IMO are one the top 10 GM's in football right now.

Good take here.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Dorkington]

No, its not. EJ was drafted in April. Tuel was drafted in April. Kolb went down August 24th. That's 2 weeks before the season started. Two weeks before the season isn't early. Lewis was signed on August 25th. Leinart was signed at the same time. Matt Flynn was brought in after that. There are ZERO QBs in the league that can be signed midseason that represent better options than the guys who were already on your roster and participated in camp, which is why Tuel ultimately started a game.

 

Familiarize yourself with the facts and lose the agenda.

Glad I wasn't too far off in my recollection of things.

 

I was actually at the Bills v Skins pre-season game where Kolb went down.

[Malazan]

How anyone can brush off the fact we lost our starting QB, all of our RBs on our roster, all 5 of our top 5 WR's, our ace ST player (also a WR), our starting TE, and key OL players is beyond me and thats not even discussing our D side of the ball.

 

We also didn't lose any of them for the entire season. Your assertion also assumes that the Bills have a greater propensity for losing greater value players than other teams.

 

The Bills aren't some magically snakebit team suffering more or "greater" injuries in any meaningful way than other teams. They're not at fault for the injuries either. Their training staff is not bumbling band of idiots who have no idea what they're doing. The stats also show that last season they were one of the more injured teams last season. I think they did pretty well given the injuries they had.

[Ronin]

 

While I get your post, here is why its wrong IMO.

 

Offense: Last year we lost our starting QB, starting OL, all of our top 5 WRs, all of our top 4 RBs, and our starting TE to injury for parts or all of the season. Thats every single playmaker, all of the playmakers backups, and key members of the OL.

 

Say what?

 

Our top 5 WRs were Watkins, Woods, Hogan, Harvin, and Easeley. Harvin was signed exactly for the reasons that fridge cites, a lack of planning and vision on Whaley's part. It's been a perpetual theme since he's been in charge.

 

They couldn't sign a low-priced WR like Hogan, so now we have no depth. Right, got it.

 

Watkins always has injury issues and this season is no exception. But any fool knows that you don't go and trade away next year's 1st-rounder for a WR of all positions. That doesn't even address the 4th thrown in too. Woods started 9 games and played in 14, we were 6-8 in those games, meaning we won the two he didn't play in. Maybe he's just not that good. Harvin also had an extensive injury history. That was known. Then you dig to Easeley, the kind of WR that can be found on waivers any day of the week.

 

Taylor played in 14 games. You make it sound as if he went out in week 4 and stayed out.

 

McCoy was available for 12 games and we were 3-1 in the games he missed.

 

Starting TE was Clay and he wasn't anything of consequence such that it was like losing Gronk. We were 2-1 w/o Clay.

 

Those are pertinent facts.

 

You may want to reformulate your argument.

 

Also, every team loses players to injury, it's an expected part of the game. Whaley apologists talk as if we're the only team affected by injuries.

 

If anything, without our top playmakers we performed better? ... or at least won more games? How can that possibly be? Figure that out, then apply that line of thinking to the argument in generaly.

So here is my question: What was our Record last year despite a ridiculous amount of injuries to all of our best players and key starters?

 

That answer was 8-8. You don't get to 8-8 with those amount of injuries without having depth and finding key values off the street and value in the draft.

 

How about strength-of-schedule, or in our case weakness-of-schedule. Does that factor in anywhere in your analysis?

 

If not, it should, and you'll see this season why it should.

Edited August 10, 2016 by TaskersGhost

[White Linen]

 

I don't really know how to differentiate this roster than several others over the past 16 years. It seems like much of the same to me. No one is saying everything needs to be blown up. If we miss the playoffs, I'd prefer to see a new GM with a new approach, but realistically unless it's a total tank-fest I'd expect to see Rex and Whaley stay.

 

I'll help you. Tyrod Taylor has given us the most reason to think we've found a QB in 16 years.