Reggie Ragland to have knee surgery; out for season

[Doc]

 

I don't think so. As a DE if he were prolific he'd have been a guaranteed top-10 selection.

The shoulder scared off many teams.

[Billschinatown]

How were Spikes and Brown exposed in 2014? I went game by game, and no tight end topped 100 yards, and only two running backs got more than 30 yds through the air (Forte destroyed them in the opener and Foster got 55 - i may have missed someone who got between 30-50). Overall the pass defense was 3rd in yardage and 1st in TDs allowed. I also think Manny Lawson had a lot to do with those numbers as he had a rep for being able to cover the tight end.

 

Although, I will cop to the fact it's embarrassing Jim Dray got 44 yards against them .

He's right. I hope defense is nothing like it was in 2014. Awful.

 

Wakka wakka.

 

Fozzybear.jpg

Edited August 10, 2016 by Billschinatown

[K-9]

How were Spikes and Brown exposed in 2014? I went game by game, and no tight end topped 100 yards, and only two running backs got more than 30 yds through the air (Forte destroyed them in the opener and Foster got 55 - i may have missed someone who got between 30-50). Overall the pass defense was 3rd in yardage and 1st in TDs allowed. I also think Manny Lawson had a lot to do with those numbers as he had a rep for being able to cover the tight end.

 

Although, I will cop to the fact it's embarrassing Jim Dray got 44 yards against them .

Shallow crossers all season long, especially against the Thursday night game against the 'Phins and other teams took note. Schwartz protected them a lot with his propensity for zone schemes but their lack of athleticism made it hard for them to close, regardless. It wasn't always a question of getting beat in one on one situations.

 

I don't want to make a bigger deal of it than it is and I appreciate what Brown and Spikes bring to the table in every other area, it's just a concern I have moving forward. Who knows, Spikes has never been in this good of condition and he's hungry to redeem himself, too.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Fadingpain]

This is why you do not draft a hurt player. Now our 1st and 2nd rounders are done and we had no 1st pick last year. Our 1st pick the year before is coming back from injury. No wonder we don't win more than 7 to 9 games most of the time the past 16 years. There systemically something wrong with the Bills franchise. Even luck would give us one 10 win season, Unbelievable!

Not making your draft picks count via conversion into regular players on the field is the hallmark of a bad franchise.

 

Historically with us, it's been because of incompetent management.

This time around it's slightly different.

[thebandit27]

 

I don't think so. As a DE if he were prolific he'd have been a guaranteed top-10 selection.

 

I'll throw in some statements from three high-profile draft sites, nfl.com, cbssports, and PFF.

 

 

 

 

 

 

CBS Sports is down, but you wont' find anything there either.

 

Do those sound "prolific" to you? They don't to me.

 

As with Alabama, which is whey few of their drafted LBs ever live up to expectation, the talent levels at Clemson too are so overmatched with their opponents in college on the team level that the individuals always look better than they are. A good GM would compensate for that. Many of them do. Ours does not, in fact, ours leans the other way.

 

Also, all that everyone's been screaming about since last season is our lack of sacks, well this surely doesn't fit that bill.

 

First off, what you're doing is using a word that means either "producing" or "present in large numbers" to describe a defender. Since I don't think you mean the second definition, you must mean the first, which means he was productive. 24.5 TFLs, which led the nation, is productive. This is not debatable.

 

Here is the exact same scouting report you highlighted:

 

Bottom Line

Productive backup for two years before putting together an All­-American season in his first year as a full- time starter. Lawson is built like a full­-grown man and combines his instincts, toughness and power to fill up a stat sheet and set an early tone. Lawson's frame and game are easily translatable to the NFL, but his average athleticism and pass rush skills will likely have teams viewing him as a 3­-4 edge setter or a 4-­3 base end. Lawson may also have value as 3­-4 defensive tackle in an upfield scheme.

Literally the only difference is that I've bolded the 90% of the bottom line that was positive, as opposed to the 10% that was average-and-not-negative. So yes, that scouting report sounds good to me.

What I think you're really trying to say is that you don't believe he projected as well to the NFL as many others do; you're just having a hard time saying it. Your statement that he wasn't "prolific" is wholly nebulous at best, and flat-out incorrect at worst. The guy was extremely productive as a senior--you don't lead the nation in TFLs (and the conference in sacks) if you aren't productive.

Edited August 10, 2016 by thebandit27

[Nanker]

Good luck Reggie. Get well soon, and don't skimp on the spleen rehabbing exercises either.

[thebandit27]

Shallow crossers all season long, especially against the Thursday night game against the 'Phins and other teams took note. Schwartz protected them a lot with his propensity for zone schemes but their lack of athleticism made it hard for them to close, regardless. It wasn't always a question of getting beat in one on one situations.

 

I don't want to make a bigger deal of it than it is and I appreciate what Brown and Spikes bring to the table in every other area, it's just a concern I have moving forward. Who knows, Spikes has never been in this good of condition and he's hungry to redeem himself, too.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

You basically have to hope for the same that you were hoping for with Ragland, which is that the scheme limits the amount of man coverage work for the inside guys.

 

Hoping for this crop to stick with RBs and TEs is a lost cause, but IMO that was true with Reggie in the fold as well.

[Billschinatown]

Shallow crossers all season long, especially against the Thursday night game against the 'Phins and other teams took note. Schwartz protected them a lot with his propensity for zone schemes but their lack of athleticism made it hard for them to close, regardless. It wasn't always a question of getting beat in one on one situations.

 

I don't want to make a bigger deal of it than it is and I appreciate what Brown and Spikes bring to the table in every other area, it's just a concern I have moving forward. Who knows, Spikes has never been in this good of condition and he's hungry to redeem himself, too.

 

GO BILLS!!!

I think it's important for us to not get down already. We've been waiting so long for the other shoe to drop. Who is to say Spikes wont have a renaissance here like incognito. Reports say athletic Zach Brown, a man with everything to prove, may be better than 2014 Bradham.

 

It's a miracle we havea team still and don't have to watch the LA Buffalos on hard knocks this year. It's an absurdity big city money didn't win out. We're lucky. Who's to say these injuries aren't the absurdity we need to finally get that playoff loss we all desperately want. As a city we seem to have a knack for absurdity.

 

Maybe this year without all the luster of years past is finally the one we needed. It will be another chapter in the list of things we can say that we've finally overcome. Then we'll all be glad we stuck around through it all.

 

I'm still excited. Weve got alot of positive things going on. Hopefully they come to fruition.

 

GO BILLS.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Billschinatown

[K-9]

 

You basically have to hope for the same that you were hoping for with Ragland, which is that the scheme limits the amount of man coverage work for the inside guys.

 

Hoping for this crop to stick with RBs and TEs is a lost cause, but IMO that was true with Reggie in the fold as well.

No doubt, but the difference with Ragland is that RR was gonna have him rushing the passer a good amount of time and I don't think Brown or Spikes provides the same kind of skill in that area.

 

GO BILLS!!!

I think it's important for us to not get down already. We've been waiting so long for the other shoe to drop. Who is to say Spikes wont have a renaissance here like incognito. Reports say athletic Zach Brown, a man with everything to prove, may be better than 2014 Bradham.

 

It's a miracle we havea team still and don't have to watch the LA Buffalos on hard knocks this year. It's an absurdity big city money didn't win out. We're lucky Who's to say these injuries aren't the absurdity we need to finally get that playoff loss we all desperately want. As a city we seem to have a knack for absurdity.

 

Maybe this year without all the luster of years past is finally the one we needed. It will be another chapter in the list of things we can say that we've finally overcome. Then we'll all be glad we stuck around through it all.

 

I'm still excited. Weve got alot of positive things going on. Hopefully they come to fruition.

 

GO BILLS.

Absolutely.

[Deranged Rhino]

I think it's important for us to not get down already. We've been waiting so long for the other shoe to drop. Who is to say Spikes wont have a renaissance here like incognito. Reports say athletic Zach Brown, a man with everything to prove, may be better than 2014 Bradham.

 

It's a miracle we havea team still and don't have to watch the LA Buffalos on hard knocks this year. It's an absurdity big city money didn't win out. We're lucky. Who's to say these injuries aren't the absurdity we need to finally get that playoff loss we all desperately want. As a city we seem to have a knack for absurdity.

 

Maybe this year without all the luster of years past is finally the one we needed. It will be another chapter in the list of things we can say that we've finally overcome. Then we'll all be glad we stuck around through it all.

 

I'm still excited. Weve got alot of positive things going on. Hopefully they come to fruition.

 

GO BILLS.

[Johnny Hammersticks]

 

That's odd!

 

Just two days ago anyone suggesting that Ragland's injury appeared to be quite significant was chided that there'd be an F5 and treated like a moron.

 

Funny how that works here.

 

I guess facts and circumstances do actually come into play, oddly enough.

 

It almost sounds as though you are enjoying these unfortunate injuries. Seems as though there are much easier teams for you to follow. You know, those teams that never have injured players?

[thurst44]

 

You basically have to hope for the same that you were hoping for with Ragland, which is that the scheme limits the amount of man coverage work for the inside guys.

 

Hoping for this crop to stick with RBs and TEs is a lost cause, but IMO that was true with Reggie in the fold as well.

Again, pretty much the same bunch were doing just that in 2014, so I don't really see why they can't stop RBs & TEs to the level of "lost cause."

[DC Greg]

Dont lose enthusiasm. The success of this team will still depend on the following elements:

 

1. Continued development of Tyrod.

2. Health of Sammy and Shady.

3. Improving defensive execution.

 

I think this is correct. It hurts to lose Ragland and Shaq, but honestly it would be hard for the defense to step much further back on the run and the pass rush than they already did last year. If the offense takes another step forward, they'll be OK. That's far from certain, but if they do they can compensate.

[NickelCity]

Ugh. The life of a Bills fan.

[Deranged Rhino]

Ugh. The life of a Bills fan.

 

It's kinda like this:

 

[thurst44]

I think it's important for us to not get down already. We've been waiting so long for the other shoe to drop. Who is to say Spikes wont have a renaissance here like incognito. Reports say athletic Zach Brown, a man with everything to prove, may be better than 2014 Bradham.

 

It's a miracle we havea team still and don't have to watch the LA Buffalos on hard knocks this year. It's an absurdity big city money didn't win out. We're lucky. Who's to say these injuries aren't the absurdity we need to finally get that playoff loss we all desperately want. As a city we seem to have a knack for absurdity.

 

Maybe this year without all the luster of years past is finally the one we needed. It will be another chapter in the list of things we can say that we've finally overcome. Then we'll all be glad we stuck around through it all.

 

I'm still excited. Weve got alot of positive things going on. Hopefully they come to fruition.

 

GO BILLS.

Refreshing. I'm still excited too. I'm also sad that we will not see Reggie Ragland. I wanted him with the first pick and he will be great. However, there's still a lot of reasons to be excited - Tyrod's second year, running game particularly if Shady stays healthy Watkins could explode, love the speed guys if they can stay healthy, the secondary particularly if A. Williams stays healthy, K. Williams was still at the top of his game when he went down, Hughes may be poised for a breakout season, Preston Brown may return to form and build on 2014 rookie season, and haven't even mentioned Marcell Dareus. Ok, I surely jinxed all these players now. I'll go!

[CommonCents]

 

It's kinda like this:

 

Hey! We have better uniforms than that.

[thebandit27]

Again, pretty much the same bunch were doing just that in 2014, so I don't really see why they can't stop RBs & TEs to the level of "lost cause."

 

Well, three things come to mind:

 

1) It wasn't really the same group--it was Preston and Bradham. Manny and Spikes didn't play quite much in Schwartz's scheme.

2) It was much easier to get away with having Preston and Bradham in coverage when the team produced 50+ sacks, which isn't Rex's model at all

3) NE did manage to exploit those guys in coverage--to the tune of 37 points

 

As I said though, Rex's scheme (not the gobbledygook one he used last year, his actual playbook) is decent for hiding those guys within zones, which is why he was able to get away with guys that couldn't cover like Bart Scott, Demarrio Davis, and David Harris in NJ.

[Ronin]

 

First off, what you're doing is using a word that means either "producing" or "present in large numbers" to describe a defender. Since I don't think you mean the second definition, you must mean the first, which means he was productive. 24.5 TFLs, which led the nation, is productive. This is not debatable.

 

Here is the exact same scouting report you highlighted:

 

Bottom Line

Productive backup for two years before putting together an All­-American season in his first year as a full- time starter. Lawson is built like a full­-grown man and combines his instincts, toughness and power to fill up a stat sheet and set an early tone. Lawson's frame and game are easily translatable to the NFL, but his average athleticism and pass rush skills will likely have teams viewing him as a 3­-4 edge setter or a 4-­3 base end. Lawson may also have value as 3­-4 defensive tackle in an upfield scheme.

Literally the only difference is that I've bolded the 90% of the bottom line that was positive, as opposed to the 10% that was average-and-not-negative. So yes, that scouting report sounds good to me.

What I think you're really trying to say is that you don't believe he projected as well to the NFL as many others do; you're just having a hard time saying it. Your statement that he wasn't "prolific" is wholly nebulous at best, and flat-out incorrect at worst. The guy was extremely productive as a senior--you don't lead the nation in TFLs (and the conference in sacks) if you aren't productive.

 

Uhhh, OK, I still don't see anything "prolific" in the parts that you bolded. Simply having an All-American season is hardly being prolific. Otherwise, you can ignore "only 10%" of whatever, but that's a pretty huge thing to be ignoring. The rest is just a whole lot of he doesn't suck.

 

An argument can be made that he's prolific as a run defender, but when you factor in another part that I bolded ...

 

Played on a stacked Clemson line that pushed a handful of cleanup sacks his way

 

 

... that certainly creates some doubt as to how much of his performance was exclusively him vice his overall defensive unit, which was more prolific than he was as college defenses go, and suggests that you at least have to factor that in. Like I said, good GMs factor that in, ours leans the opposite direction.

 

Either way, I think we can easily agree that he's clearly not prolific as a pass-rusher and the schtick there isn't even necessarily projected as above average for an NFL starting DE.

 

So I suppose that the definition of prolific varies from yours to mine or otherwise, but the point was that after he comes back from surgery, he's not going to have improved any of those things, plus, he'll have recover to concern himself with as well, and shoulder, not knee, which is far more complex and likely to have to have revision surgeries of one kind or another to boot not to mention more likely to not be closer to 100%. He's no shoe-in.

 

Also, think about it, every draft everyone thinks that all the first rounders are going to shine, for whichever team, when around half are always busts, and of the remaining ones, they play to varying levels otherwise rendering the odds of any given 1st-round draftee becoming what the team expected at the time of the draft as being significantly less than 50%. Suggesting that we're somehow exempt from that makes no sense, you know that.

 

So that's my point, the odds of either Ragland or Shaq turning out to be this force that we're all hoping is significantly less than 50%, the chance that both of them turn out that way is significantly less than 25%, based on proven NFL Draft post-mortems, i.e. statistically supported.

 

When you factor in the issues that our team has had in drafting players, for sure no beneift of the doubt can be given them. I mean look at this draft, the whole world knew that Shaq was damaged goods, but not us, we know better than the slew of the rest and were going to show them all wrong. Well, the ones with egg on their faces is our FO and Ryan. This is what happens when they try to be smarter-by-half. It usually comes back to kick you in the ass.

 

No matter how you slice it, Shaq has never been considered a prolific pass rusher. Slide it up to the NFL level and that's hardly going to improve.

It almost sounds as though you are enjoying these unfortunate injuries. Seems as though there are much easier teams for you to follow. You know, those teams that never have injured players?

 

Hardly

 

Nice tangent however.

 

What I'm doing is placing credibility or lack thereof, onto certain posters or general categories of posters, who continue to blather out anything that they want as if this is the Oprah show, just believe whatever you want and your dreams will come true, all while defending what outside of Buffalo circles, and only subsets therein, has become entirely indefensible.

[fridge]

I don't think that individually Ragland and Lawson will be huge loses. As a whole, it definitely makes the offseason look very weak. The Bills added very little (ok, almost nothing) to an already average roster. The Jets seemed to regress under Rex, and now that he hired his brother, I don't know...I'm not expecting this defense to shock the world or anything.

 

Injuries happen and as Bills fans we understand bad luck more than anyone, but they really did not set themselves up to be in the best situation given where they were after Marrone's 9-7* season. I've been on the fence about Whaley, but he has shown himself to really not be prepared with a back-up plan when sh*t starts to hit the fan (Jeff Tuel started a game for Christ's sake). We'll see how this year goes I guess...

 

*wk 17 fake win