DC Tom Posted July 31, 2016 Posted July 31, 2016 Should have typed that I hope someone is working on implementing the contingency... I know there are literally contingency plans for everything, especially nuclear weapons in unstable areas. Which not to go off topic would be very crurious to see what happens when NK and fat boy start to unravel what SK and the US do to go in and secure his nukes. The thing about contingency plans is that they still require planning. You don't just flip a switch and go...you have to figure out what assets you have available, where they are, what you have to do to get them where you need them to be, etc. And there's the diplomatic side: what nations are involved, how are they involved (overflights, basing, actual storage of the weapons, active cooperation, passive or active resistance), what needs to be negotiated in that regard, etc. And that includes Turkey - Incirlik is a Turkish air base, after all, and the reason it's such a sensitive issue is that it's used jointly by the US and Turkey (meaning: surrounding Incirlik isn't necessarily a message to the US; it could just as easily have nothing to do with the US and everything to do with the Turkish forces on base). (Note, too, that the closest available forces are the USS Eisenhower and one MEU in the Persian Gulf, both maybe five days away.)
Deranged Rhino Posted July 31, 2016 Posted July 31, 2016 Not sure what the contingency plan or QRF would be to move the nukes in a hostile environment where there may be an attempt to gain custody of the weapons but I would imagine quite a lot of resources would be needed to expedite and oversee a movement like that. In addition to the 200 or so on site air force security forces... Probably additional units like A navy task force in the med with tactical air support, an embarked marine force element, army ranger QRF on site or near by, strategic airlift c-5s c17s, tankers, drones, possibly f22s and some other type of close air support a-10, apache, cobra, ac130 etc... I have no idea what the mission profile would be to get the nukes out of Turkey in the current climate or if it becomes even more hostile but we need to do EVERYTHING to maintain control over them. But hopefully someone already is working on the contingency because it seems conditions in Turkey are degrading rapidly. Thanks for the informative post. Probably load them on transports (C-5s or C-17s) and fly them out. And if they can, in pieces - fly out the physics packages separately from the bomb explosives and casings. The hard part is security and planning. You'd want a secure destination point and flight path to it...so you'd probably be talking about deploying Marines and a fighter escort, and negotiating safe air corridors and permission to land the bombs somewhere (e.g. Lakenhurst, or Aviano.) Same. The thing about contingency plans is that they still require planning. You don't just flip a switch and go...you have to figure out what assets you have available, where they are, what you have to do to get them where you need them to be, etc. And there's the diplomatic side: what nations are involved, how are they involved (overflights, basing, actual storage of the weapons, active cooperation, passive or active resistance), what needs to be negotiated in that regard, etc. And that includes Turkey - Incirlik is a Turkish air base, after all, and the reason it's such a sensitive issue is that it's used jointly by the US and Turkey (meaning: surrounding Incirlik isn't necessarily a message to the US; it could just as easily have nothing to do with the US and everything to do with the Turkish forces on base). (Note, too, that the closest available forces are the USS Eisenhower and one MEU in the Persian Gulf, both maybe five days away.) This is a stupid question -- since I know the nukes are ours -- but are there such a thing as "NATO" owned nukes? Meaning, would Turkey have any pretense or way to claim ownership of them as a NATO member and refuse to let them leave the country?
DC Tom Posted July 31, 2016 Posted July 31, 2016 This is a stupid question -- since I know the nukes are ours -- but are there such a thing as "NATO" owned nukes? Meaning, would Turkey have any pretense or way to claim ownership of them as a NATO member and refuse to let them leave the country? Several non-nuclear NATO members train to deliver nuclear weapons (Italy, Germany, the Netherlands,) and have small stockpiles of US weapons in their own countries. And NATO is in charge of maintenance, storage, and determining policy regarding such. But ultimately usage is determined by the US (since we control the permissive action links that allows the bombs to go "boom!") Depending on who you talk to, that makes those nations nuclear powers and the bombs a NATO stockpile...or makes them US weapons at NATO's disposal if needed. I think the latter's the preferred legal interpretation (the former is preferred more by socialists farther left than Bernie), and personally I prefer it as well, on the simple fact that the weapons are under our ultimate control and not NATO's. If Turkey were to try that argument...at best the argument would cloud the issue slightly. Even if you could rationally argue "They're on our land, so they're ours" or "They're a NATO asset, we're part of NATO, so they're ours," they're still governed by multiple international agreements that say they're not, including the nuclear sharing agreements in force with NATO.
ALF Posted July 31, 2016 Posted July 31, 2016 "...and a fighter escort..." Repeat after me: Read, THEN respond. negotiating safe air corridors and permission to land the bombs somewhere (e.g. Lakenhurst, or Aviano.) My question meant , what if a safe air corridor is not granted by Turkey
/dev/null Posted July 31, 2016 Posted July 31, 2016 My question meant , what if a safe air corridor is not granted by Turkey
KD in CA Posted July 31, 2016 Posted July 31, 2016 Probably load them on transports (C-5s or C-17s) and fly them out. And if they can, in pieces - fly out the physics packages separately from the bomb explosives and casings. The hard part is security and planning. You'd want a secure destination point and flight path to it...so you'd probably be talking about deploying Marines and a fighter escort, and negotiating safe air corridors and permission to land the bombs somewhere (e.g. Lakenhurst, or Aviano.) Seems like they could find somewhere closer than New Jersey.
DC Tom Posted August 1, 2016 Posted August 1, 2016 My question meant , what if a safe air corridor is not granted by Turkey "...and a fighter escort..." Seems like they could find somewhere closer than New Jersey. I'm not correcting it...anyone smart enough knew where I meant. Anyone who doesn't know where I meant, I will mock.
drinkTHEkoolaid Posted August 1, 2016 Posted August 1, 2016 "...and a fighter escort..." I'm not correcting it...anyone smart enough knew where I meant. Anyone who doesn't know where I meant, I will mock. RAF Lakenheath?
DC Tom Posted August 1, 2016 Posted August 1, 2016 RAF Lakenheath? I'm not correcting it, you can't make me!
KD in CA Posted August 1, 2016 Posted August 1, 2016 "...and a fighter escort..." I'm not correcting it...anyone smart enough knew where I meant. Anyone who doesn't know where I meant, I will mock. My brother has worked there for 20 years between active duty and post-retirement consulting.
drinkTHEkoolaid Posted August 1, 2016 Posted August 1, 2016 http://www.trunews.com/article/combat-units-placed-on-high-alert-after-incirlik-surrounded Maybe more to it?
CommonCents Posted August 1, 2016 Author Posted August 1, 2016 http://www.trunews.com/article/combat-units-placed-on-high-alert-after-incirlik-surrounded Maybe more to it? Yeah, very little coverage of this entire thing? Busy day for me but haven't heard much about it.
DC Tom Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 http://www.trunews.com/article/combat-units-placed-on-high-alert-after-incirlik-surrounded Maybe more to it? Or maybe less. The base is at normal operating condition, at least part of the 101st is deployed in Iraq. And the police with "rifles" and "armored TOMA vehicles" are riot police (the TOMA is armed with a water cannon.) So they surround the base with riot police equipped for crowd control, and close the airspace around the base...when the US Chairman of the JCS arrives at Incirlik, within striking distance of the Islamic State.
Doc Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 The ship stopped in Turkey, we did an 8-hour excursion, it was great and we made it back to the ship safely.
unbillievable Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 (edited) The ship stopped in Turkey, we did an 8-hour excursion, it was great and we made it back to the ship safely. Did you go out? I would have stayed around the pool instead. Edited August 2, 2016 by unbillievable
Nanker Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 The ship stopped in Turkey, we did an 8-hour excursion, it was great and we made it back to the ship safely. Good to hear. Glad you're all safe.
Doc Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 Did you go out? Yes. For 8 hours. Good to hear. Glad you're all safe. Thanks. Same here.
Nanker Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 My wife went to Istanbul a few years ago and was really bothered by the fact that they had heavily armed (AK-47s?) police all over the place. She went to dinner at a restaurant that was installed at the "Midnight Express" prison. She was happier than usual to be back in America after that particular overseas trip.
Deranged Rhino Posted August 2, 2016 Posted August 2, 2016 The ship stopped in Turkey, we did an 8-hour excursion, it was great and we made it back to the ship safely. Glad to hear it. ********************************** ...I guess it's a good thing Dunford is in country then: Turkey files complaint accusing US army chief Gen. Dunford of plotting attempted coup The criminal complaint was also filed against Director of US National Intelligence James Clapper and the US Army General Joseph Votel on charges that include “violation of Turkish Constitution” and “making propaganda of a terrorist organization.” Eryılmaz filed the complaint accusing US military officials of participating in the July 15 failed coup attempt at the Bakırköy Chief Public Prosecutor’s Office. The lawyer claimed that Turkey’s İncirlik Air Base in Adana, which is primarily used by the Turkish Air Force as well as the US Air Force, was the place where July 15 “imperialist invasion” was orchestrated. https://www.turkishminute.com/2016/08/02/turkey-files-complaint-accusing-us-army-chief-gen-dunford-plotting-attempted-coup/
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