meazza Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 I jumped in on a separate point and unknowingly hijacked it. Apologies. No, it's not a scheme. The American justice system has a lengthy and indisputable history of unequal treatment between black folk and white folk. From the very creation of the country, through Jim Crow, through separate but equal, through the civil rights movements, through the War on Drugs, right on up to today. Historically there has been a vested interest by the some in power to deliberately disenfranchise the black community through both legal and illegal means. Tell me why the African American community is the community that will be prone to be involved in drugs? Why not the Mexican community, the Italian community, the Arab community or the Asian community?
Sig1Hunter Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 (edited) Ok, but what evidence is there that this systematic repression of minorities is actually occurring "right on up to today"? If there is none, then is it just a perception based upon decades old information? At which point do we get to acknowledge that law enforcement is not stuck in the 60s? We are recorded in everything that we do - either by our own agencies, or by the public. We have mandatory reporting of traffic stop demographic statistics. We recruit lesser qualified minorities to have departments that are more representative of cultural demographics. We have entire divisions dedicated to embedding with the communities that we serve. At some point, the victim mentality has to end. If Alton Sterling was reaching for his gun, he is not a victim. If facts come out that prove that he was not reaching for his gun, and he was instead submitting, then I'll be right there with you demanding a vigorous prosecution of the two police officers. Ditto for Minnesota. Edited July 13, 2016 by Sig1Hunter
meazza Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 Obama will be meeting with the son of the guy who died in Minnesota tomorrow.
keepthefaith Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 (edited) All good for the gangs now. Hilly is into gangs. We have positive gangs now Hillary. They're called school, sports, music, arts, clubs, places of religious worship and others. Disagree. That's a faulty conclusion to draw without looking at the entire picture. With that conclusion you're assuming that every crime and every criminal were policed and prosecuted equally. What we're discussing is an inherent kink in the system which determines not only who is policed and prosecuted, but how they are police and prosecuted. The numbers you and Unbilleivable are citing ignore this element entirely. Which is why it's a bunk argument. It's arguing something else entirely. And that's assuming those numbers are actually real in the first place. So the crime numbers in the pie charts a few posts back are not relevant? You're suggesting the numbers are biased because the cops and the legal system prosecute black rapists, murderers and robbers more so than whites? That would mean that the victims of these violent crimes are less likely to see justice done if the criminals are white. So if my wife is raped by a white guy the cops and prosecutors aren't going after him as aggressively as if he were black? Edited July 13, 2016 by keepthefaith
Sig1Hunter Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 The black population comprises approximately 13 percent of the population. Yet, 52 percent of murders are committed by black offenders. I don't understand how this is a straw man to your point that the prison population contains a percentage of blacks that is not representative of their total population.
Deranged Rhino Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 (edited) Tell me why the African American community is the community that will be prone to be involved in drugs? Why not the Mexican community, the Italian community, the Arab community or the Asian community? Like I said above, it's not about race. There isn't one race that has a higher proclivity for crime and drug abuse than any other, any attempt to frame the conversation around that false paradigm is missing the point. Each of those groups had a very different journey to this country, and and because of that they faced different obstacles from not only each other but the black community as well. Ok, but what evidence is there that this systematic repression of minorities is actually occurring "right on up to today"? The incarceration rates and different sentencing practices on drug offenses to name two. Things take a long, long, loooong time to change when it's done within the system and when you're talking about the sort of systemic oppression that's been heaped upon the black community since they arrived in this country, those things leave a lasting imprint long after the injustices are resolved. Hell, 51 years ago black folk couldn't even vote. 51 years seems like a long time. It isn't. Edited July 13, 2016 by Deranged Rhino
ExiledInIllinois Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 Ok, but what evidence is there that this systematic repression of minorities is actually occurring "right on up to today"? If there is none, then is it just a perception based upon decades old information? At which point do we get to acknowledge that law enforcement is not stuck in the 60s? We are recorded in everything that we do - either by our own agencies, or by the public. We have mandatory reporting of traffic stop demographic statistics. We recruit lesser qualified minorities to have departments that are more representative of cultural demographics. We have entire divisions dedicated to embedding with the communities that we serve. At some point, the victim mentality has to end. Yes it does have to end. But it is easy for you to say seeing how giving your connections may never be swallowed up by the system you serve. It would be like me say: "People, stop playing the victim when when waiting a long time in TSA line... While I cruise through to the front of the queue with my ID." "Deal w/the system." Aren't I being a bit hypocritical. I for one do NOT think there is systematic repression. Go figure. I just don't buy into that lib mentality. There is NO conspiracy anywhere out there... Gov't, media, etc... Now there is bias. Everybody has a bias one way or another. You do, I do. Bias just happens because of the complicated nature of the systems innvolved. The justice system is especially glaring. People simply just dont have the time and resources to fight it the right way. Emphasis on time especially! Myself, the only reason I have been sucessful fighting personal legal injustices is because I am afforded the time to shift through the system. Most people want to resolve their troubles in the moment. The game out there is just so fast THEN the brakes are applied andit gets too slow. Just too slow and complicated without hiring an attorney. People have just dug themselves too deep a hole, too fast before they even know it and then attempt to double down to get out. Guess what happens? It's like taking 3 cuts at a very slow pitch and whiffing on the spot. Yet, the pitch is fast enough, that if you don't swing and take too long, you get caught looking. The system might appear rigged. And maybe it is when it comes to people who lack the education, time, and patience. There is simply no road map out there to get it perfect. The system demands perfection. We are hardly perfect people. All of us, more some than others. We all have an American birthright to fight tyranny. That is where people get tripped up. I don't want you leaning on my as much as you don't want me questioning how you do your job, leaning on you. Yet, it is your job to lean on me and my job to question you. The legal system, justice, policing, gov't systems have simply become a black hole (excuse the wording)... & if one doesn't cross their t's, dot their i's, and fight like hell, they are swallowed up by the procedure. You've probably spent your share of time in court, how do you think the system appears to the average person appearing in that court? It's a black hole.
boyst Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 He ESPY's just honored Michael Brown, Trayvon Martin and the other criminals killed in their opening. I didn't expect it seen by anyone. But it'll be headlines tomorrow Like I said above, it's not about race. There isn't one race that has a higher proclivity for crime and drug abuse than any other, any attempt to frame the conversation around that false paradigm is missing the point. Each of those groups had a very different journey to this country, and and because of that they faced different obstacles from not only each other but the black community as well. The incarceration rates and different sentencing practices on drug offenses to name two. Things take a long, long, loooong time to change when it's done within the system and when you're talking about the sort of systemic oppression that's been heaped upon the black community since they arrived in this country, those things leave a lasting imprint long after the injustices are resolved. Hell, 51 years ago black folk couldn't even vote. 51 years seems like a long time. It isn't. I think it took about 10-12 years max, actually. Before that it too bad.
Chef Jim Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 What Obama meant to say "in certain neighborhood teenagers WANT a gun more than they want a computer or a book". That's the absolute truth and the problem. Solve that and you solve a lot.
Tux of Borg Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 The list is long and infamous. http://www.tpfnypd.com/tpf-history.html " The Tactical Patrol Force was the NYPD's response to the turbulent 1960's and early 1970's. The riots of the mid 1960's, Whitehall Draft Board Riot and Vietnam War protests of the later 1960's, The Stonewall Riots, The Prison Riots of 1970, Son of Sam Serial Killer Case, Power Blackout of 1977, are among some of the events the Tactical Patrol Force responded to. The shining moment in TPF's history was when the order was given to retake Columbia University and clear out the protesters who where destroying the University. TPF had debris and furniture thrown at them from of upper level windows, buckets of human waste dosed the TPF officers. Yet they stood tall and completed their assigned duty."
GG Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 The incarceration rates and different sentencing practices on drug offenses to name two. Do you have data to back this up?
....lybob Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 Do you have data to back this up? https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/06/04/the-blackwhite-marijuana-arrest-gap-in-nine-charts/
Doc Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 What Obama meant to say "in certain neighborhood teenagers WANT a gun more than they want a computer or a book". That's the absolute truth and the problem. Solve that and you solve a lot. Almost impossible to solve when a large percentage of kids have an absentee parent and/or one who just doesn't care. Examples like Juror's are the exceptions, not the rule.
GG Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/06/04/the-blackwhite-marijuana-arrest-gap-in-nine-charts/ Care to link the primary methodology for ACLU's "comprehensive" report?
keepthefaith Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/06/04/the-blackwhite-marijuana-arrest-gap-in-nine-charts/ We need to know how many are dealing weed not just using it. We also need to know what other crimes people were arrested for at the same time charged with possession.
ExiledInIllinois Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/06/04/the-blackwhite-marijuana-arrest-gap-in-nine-charts/ Those numbers are pretty glaring, but I don't think it tells the whole story. I would like to see how many whites are realeased after getting caught w/weed. Is that stat even possible? Are cops letting whites go? That would be distressing! There are so many other factors. I went on about prextext policing, "fishing expeditions." What about cultural behavior? Laziness, sloppiness, unorganized to have that crap around and in sight knowing it is illegal. Get stopped for something innocuous (like loud music) and then spiral down the black hole because you were stupid enough to have a gun or bag of weed on your lap, or begin arguing w/said officer. Rule of thumb, I will argue in their playground, but only under the sure bet my act is squared away... 100%!! Anything less and I m folding and submitting. A weapon stuck in my face is also a no brainer. Are there cultural differences between ebony & ivory? Like hell their aren't! Just saying...
Deranged Rhino Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 Do you have data to back this up? There's plenty out there. Some better sourced than others. Not to mention the laws themselves. Prison sentences of black men were nearly 20% longer than those of white men for similar crimes in recent years, an analysis by the U.S. Sentencing Commission found. That racial gap has widened since the Supreme Court restored judicial discretion in sentencing in 2005, according to the Sentencing Commission's findings, which were submitted to Congress last month and released publicly this week. http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324432004578304463789858002 Nationally, according to the U.S. Census, Blacks are incarcerated five times more than Whites are, and Hispanics are nearly twice as likely to be incarcerated as Whites: Social science research has time and again come to the robust conclusion that exposure to the criminal justice system has profound and intergenerational negative effects on communities that experience disproportionate incarceration rates. http://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/rates.html
GG Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 There's plenty out there. Some better sourced than others. Not to mention the laws themselves. Prison sentences of black men were nearly 20% longer than those of white men for similar crimes in recent years, an analysis by the U.S. Sentencing Commission found. That racial gap has widened since the Supreme Court restored judicial discretion in sentencing in 2005, according to the Sentencing Commission's findings, which were submitted to Congress last month and released publicly this week. http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324432004578304463789858002 Nationally, according to the U.S. Census, Blacks are incarcerated five times more than Whites are, and Hispanics are nearly twice as likely to be incarcerated as Whites: Social science research has time and again come to the robust conclusion that exposure to the criminal justice system has profound and intergenerational negative effects on communities that experience disproportionate incarceration rates. http://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/rates.html Did you read the WSJ article and the criticism of the commission's findings? Gee, social science has concluded that generational exposure to the criminal justice system has an adverse affect on a community? Shocked, I tell you. Maybe they can round up a few pennies for another study that examines the effect that unbroken families have on members of the communities avoiding exposure to the criminal justice system in the first place?
Sig1Hunter Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 (edited) There's plenty out there. Some better sourced than others. Not to mention the laws themselves. Prison sentences of black men were nearly 20% longer than those of white men for similar crimes in recent years, an analysis by the U.S. Sentencing Commission found.[/size] That racial gap has widened since the Supreme Court restored judicial discretion in sentencing in 2005, according to the Sentencing Commission's findings, which were submitted to Congress last month and released publicly this week.[/size] http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324432004578304463789858002 Nationally, according to the U.S. Census, Blacks are incarcerated five times more than Whites are, and Hispanics are nearly twice as likely to be incarcerated as Whites: Social science research has time and again come to the robust conclusion that exposure to the criminal justice system has profound and intergenerational negative effects on communities that experience disproportionate incarceration rates. http://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/rates.html Why is this? Because a lot of black offenders generally can't afford a high priced private attorney. They are forced to rely upon basic public defense attorneys. How do incarceration rates with people represented by public defenders versus private defense attorneys vary? Edited July 14, 2016 by Sig1Hunter
Deranged Rhino Posted July 14, 2016 Posted July 14, 2016 Why is this? Because a lot of black offenders generally can't afford a high priced private attorney. They are forced to rely upon basic public defense attorneys. How do incarceration rates with people represented by public defenders versus private defense attorneys vary? That certainly plays a part, but only reinforces my arguments as to the ramifications of systemically oppressing an entire segment of the population for well over 200 years. Did you read the WSJ article and the criticism of the commission's findings? Gee, social science has concluded that generational exposure to the criminal justice system has an adverse affect on a community? Shocked, I tell you. Maybe they can round up a few pennies for another study that examines the effect that unbroken families have on members of the communities avoiding exposure to the criminal justice system in the first place? Yup. I did. This isn't an invented issue, it's real and based in fact and history with hard data supporting it. You asked for numbers, I gave you numbers. There are plenty more out there to be had and they all say the same thing. I'm not arguing these problems are insurmountable or attempting to justify victim mentality. I'm merely pointing out that they exist in a very real way to an entire segment of our population. Pretending there isn't a problem, when there clearly is, is just as disingenuous if not more so than the people who use that same problem to exonerate themselves from any culpability in their situation or actions.
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