Doc Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 Baton Rouge officer: Alton Sterling reached for a gun before he was shot http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/12/us/police-shootings-investigations/ Unless there is clear video , I can't believe he would reach for his gun with 2 armed police on top of him for a bs reason JMO Similarly, I can't believe he'd resist arrest. Oh well.
DC Tom Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 Baton Rouge officer: Alton Sterling reached for a gun before he was shot http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/12/us/police-shootings-investigations/ Unless there is clear video , I can't believe he would reach for his gun with 2 armed police on top of him for a bs reason JMO Unless it was suicide by cop. Wouldn't that be a kicker? BLM protesting the shooting by police of a black man who wanted the police to shoot him.
Sig1Hunter Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 Why is it easier for some segments of the public to believe that these two cops set out to murder a man, in broad daylight (figuratively speaking), in front of who knows how many cameras, than it is to believe that a convicted felon would reach for a gun that he wasn't supposed to have? People will do some crazy stuff when they know that they are looking at prison time.
Deranged Rhino Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 (edited) Why is it easier for some segments of the public to believe that these two cops set out to murder a man, in broad daylight (figuratively speaking), in front of who knows how many cameras, than it is to believe that a convicted felon would reach for a gun that he wasn't supposed to have? People will do some crazy stuff when they know that they are looking at prison time. Because some segments of the population have only known persecution and harassment from cops simply because of their skin color. That's a fact, and it informs that segment of the population's perspective for better or worse. I understand you're an officer, and I'm in no way trying to malign your service or your profession. But you're ignoring literally years and years of systemic persecution against minorities with statements like this. These are facts, not speculations. Their perspective is different because the reality they face on a daily basis is different. Edited July 13, 2016 by Deranged Rhino
DC Tom Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 (edited) Their perspective is different because the reality they face on a daily basis is different. I, myself, have never lived in any reality that I wasn't at least partially responsible for creating. Nor have I ever met anyone else who wasn't. Edited July 13, 2016 by DC Tom
Sig1Hunter Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 (edited) Because some segments of the population have only known persecution and harassment from cops simply because of their skin color. That's a fact, and it informs that segment of the population's perspective for better or worse. I understand you're an officer, and I'm in no way trying to malign your service or your profession. But you're ignoring literally years and years of systemic persecution against minorities with statements like this. These are facts, not speculations. Their perspective is different because the reality they face on a daily basis is different. Can you point to any objective evidence of this "years and years of systemic persecution"? Perceived persecution and harassment, right? Just because I pull you over and you are black doesn't mean that you have been persecuted or harassed. Though, people will still make that accusation. Fact and perception are sometimes completely different things. Edited July 13, 2016 by Sig1Hunter
ALF Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 Since 2002, law enforcement in Minnesota had pulled over the school cafeteria supervisor at least 52 times for misdemeanors such as driving without proof of insurance, according to state court records. Many of the cases against him were dismissed. http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/13/us/police-shootings-investigations/index.html He knows the drill being pulled over , why a mistake now
DC Tom Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 Since 2002, law enforcement in Minnesota had pulled over the school cafeteria supervisor at least 52 times for misdemeanors such as driving without proof of insurance, according to state court records. Many of the cases against him were dismissed. http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/13/us/police-shootings-investigations/index.html He knows the drill being pulled over , why a mistake now That's why they're called "mistakes."
FireChan Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 Since 2002, law enforcement in Minnesota had pulled over the school cafeteria supervisor at least 52 times for misdemeanors such as driving without proof of insurance, according to state court records. Many of the cases against him were dismissed. http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/13/us/police-shootings-investigations/index.html He knows the drill being pulled over , why a mistake now You've driven to work every day for years, does that mean you won't get in an accident ever?
Deranged Rhino Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 Can you point to any objective evidence of this "years and years of systemic persecution"? Perceived persecution and harassment, right? Just because I pull you over and you are black doesn't mean that you have been persecuted or harassed. Though, people will still make that accusation. Fact and perception are sometimes completely different things. The list is long and infamous.
LeviF Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 The list is long and infamous. Perhaps, but none of those images provide evidence of a "systemic" issue. Of course, in fairness to you, proving that it's a "systemic" issue is next to impossible, even if it is system-wide. On the other hand, police misconduct is a complex issue with many facets, and pushing "rayciiiissssss" is like putting a round peg in the middle of a much larger star-shaped hole. Sure, it might be a part of it, conceivably, but claiming that it's what makes up the whole thing is stupid.
Deranged Rhino Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 Perhaps, but none of those images provide evidence of a "systemic" issue. I would argue the use of police force to thwart protests during the Civil Rights era is ample evidence of systemic abuse of power to keep minorities in check.
LeviF Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 I would argue the use of police force to thwart protests during the Civil Rights era is ample evidence of systemic abuse of power to keep minorities in check. So this "segment of the population" you were talking about is black septuagenarians?
Deranged Rhino Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 (edited) So this "segment of the population" you were talking about is black septuagenarians? It didn't stop, nor start, in the 60's. Even if it had, those people raised their kids with a different outlook on the police than the rest of the country. The original question posed by Sig was: "Why is it easier for some segments of the public to believe that these two cops set out to murder a man" Why is it easier for some to believe this? Because some have faced it first hand. It's not a difficult question to answer when you realize people's perspectives are impacted by what they experience. Black america has had a vastly different experience with the police than white america. Right or wrong, that's why some are more prone to believing cops would set out to kill a man. Ignoring this reality, however small a subset of officers it encompasses, is to miss the point. Edited July 13, 2016 by Deranged Rhino
keepthefaith Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 (edited) Because some segments of the population have only known persecution and harassment from cops simply because of their skin color. That's a fact, and it informs that segment of the population's perspective for better or worse. I understand you're an officer, and I'm in no way trying to malign your service or your profession. But you're ignoring literally years and years of systemic persecution against minorities with statements like this. These are facts, not speculations. Their perspective is different because the reality they face on a daily basis is different. Let me say this. I can tell you for sure that a lot of small beefs with the law go completely ignored by police in inner city Chicago neighborhoods. Petty thefts, hit and runs with autos, trespassing and even alcohol and drug related crimes. To an extent, the police pick their battles differently in different jurisdictions. Where I live, all of these petty beefs are more aggressively pursued by Police. Point is that if the law were truly equally applied in every neighborhood, you'd have even more people in the inner cities in court and in jail than we have now. On another note, we had a dark skinned fellow that worked here that was jailed for 3 days due to a bench warrant for skipping court on a small matter. When he returned to work he told me the whole story as to how it happened. He complained that he was pulled over in a nearby affluent town in his words for no reason other than he dark skinned. He went on to say that the officer then arrested him due to this outstanding warrant. I pointed out to him that the police turned out to be right and that it was probably no accident that they pulled him over. He continued to say that he was profiled. He is by far not alone in this kind of thinking. I could fill the page with similar stories. Edited July 13, 2016 by keepthefaith
Sig1Hunter Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 It didn't stop, nor start, in the 60's. Even if it had, those people raised their kids with a different outlook on the police than the rest of the country. The original question posed by Sig was: "Why is it easier for some segments of the public to believe that these two cops set out to murder a man" Why is it easier for some to believe this? Because some have faced it first hand. It's not a difficult question to answer when you realize people's perspectives are impacted by what they experience. Black america has had a vastly different experience with the police than white america. Right or wrong, that's why some are more prone to believing cops would set out to kill a man. Ignoring this reality, however small a subset of officers it encompasses, is to miss the point. Right, but we are right back to the whole perception versus reality debate. If someone perceives that they are being harassed, and they respond out of this perception without any basis in fact - then we are royally screwed. That's the point that we are at in this country right now. So much is based on how someone "feels", not on the objective truth of this situation. The truth, or the closest that we can get to it, is rooted in our criminal justice system. When people riot, attack innocent people, destroy property, and otherwise act the fool without any basis in fact or truth, they shoot themselves and their "movement" in the foot. And, bolstering your argument of an ongoing systemic persecution of the black community by showing photos from 25, 35, 45 years ago does absolutely nothing.
boyst Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 Unless it was suicide by cop. Wouldn't that be a kicker? BLM protesting the shooting by police of a black man who wanted the police to shoot him. we are going to have thisI promise People flocking to peer groups for acceptance, especially with such negative and harshness are drawn in for a reason. They're weak minded. There is no true greater good in joining the BLM or the KKK. Because some segments of the population have only known persecution and harassment from cops simply because of their skin color. That's a fact, and it informs that segment of the population's perspective for better or worse. I understand you're an officer, and I'm in no way trying to malign your service or your profession. But you're ignoring literally years and years of systemic persecution against minorities with statements like this. These are facts, not speculations. Their perspective is different because the reality they face on a daily basis is different. what a horrible cop out. That you cannot create your own destiny or change the way in which you are a part of any culture due to a perceived belief of inadequacy after systematic segregation occurs is weak. Yea, segregation and injustices happened. But how many black men are being pulled over today because they're black? How many white men? I'd think its less to do with skin then where, what, where and how they are driving. But feed that false narrative of persecution. Go Hillary! The list is long and infamous. you need an iphone or something that is in color. Jesus man. Actually, I've seen a lot of the recent BLM photos shown in black and white trying to broach the historical aspect of what they believe they're doing. Still... how long ago was that? And when did the Germans ever get out of line after we locked them in camps after they bombed Pearl Harbor?
LeviF Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 (edited) It didn't stop, nor start, in the 60's. Even if it had, those people raised their kids with a different outlook on the police than the rest of the country. The original question posed by Sig was: "Why is it easier for some segments of the public to believe that these two cops set out to murder a man" Why is it easier for some to believe this? Because some have faced it first hand. It's not a difficult question to answer when you realize people's perspectives are impacted by what they experience. Black america has had a vastly different experience with the police than white america. Right or wrong, that's why some are more prone to believing cops would set out to kill a man. Ignoring this reality, however small a subset of officers it encompasses, is to miss the point. His question was far more limited in scope than your answer was. You claimed that there are years and years (including currently) of systemic persecution. "Outlook" is often very different from reality. I have no doubt that the children and grandchildren of folks who participated in the civil rights movement received a different lesson on the police than I got as a kid. Whether or not that was appropriate is another matter entirely, and you say it is. I know you have no issue with conspiracy theories, but think of how far up it would have to go in order for there to be a current, systemic attempt at "keeping minorities in check." The laws of the 1950s and 60s were what they were. It was systemic then. The laws of today are what they are. It's a high bar to jump over to get to "systemic" today. I know a lot of that sounds like petty semantics, but I think it's incredibly important to define what we're talking about. Saying that "racism" is the issue driving police misconduct is, I think, highly unproductive and probably even counterproductive. Edited July 13, 2016 by LeviF91
What a Tuel Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 Because some segments of the population have only known persecution and harassment from cops simply because of their skin color. That's a fact, and it informs that segment of the population's perspective for better or worse. I understand you're an officer, and I'm in no way trying to malign your service or your profession. But you're ignoring literally years and years of systemic persecution against minorities with statements like this. These are facts, not speculations. Their perspective is different because the reality they face on a daily basis is different. What exactly do you mean by this? Do you agree that their perspective is wrong then? Do you think that they are justified in thinking the police "want" to kill them?
Deranged Rhino Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 Right, but we are right back to the whole perception versus reality debate. But we're not. Not really. The reality is the criminal justice system has been skewed along racial lines since this country was founded. The War on Drugs was a war on black folk and minorities and designed to bloat federal agencies at their expense. The US criminal justice system turned a blind eye while cartels ran (and continue to run) drugs into the inner cities while crafting legislation to designed to unfairly punish the poorest and brownest segments of the population. The sentencing disparity proves this beyond any reasonable doubt. The privatization of prisons only accelerated this. African Americans make up less than 13% of the population, yet comprise 37% of the 2.2 million male prisoners in jails right now. This didn't happen because there's a perception of an unequal playing field. It happened because there has been a systemic use of police and the judicial system to target and detain minorities. Your perception, as a white cop, is vastly different. But it's not representative of the reality for everyone. The reality is we have a system that disproportionately targets and incarcerates minorities... and we've had it since the beginning. That people are aware of this and upset by it shouldn't be surprising to anyone who knows their history. The truth, or the closest that we can get to it, is rooted in our criminal justice system. When people riot, attack innocent people, destroy property, and otherwise act the fool without any basis in fact or truth, they shoot themselves and their "movement" in the foot. Agreed. But that's not what we're discussing, or at least not what I'm discussing. I'm addressing your original question which was how could some believe cops would be out to kill a person. The answer is because it's happened before. You can deny that all you wish, but it's as true as the statement you made above. And, bolstering your argument of an ongoing systemic persecution of the black community by showing photos from 25, 35, 45 years ago does absolutely nothing. Disagree. It's visual evidence of the issue. It's an ongoing issue, not an isolated historical incident. You asked for a reason why some would believe cops would kill. Those pictures are part of that answer. we are going to have this I promise People flocking to peer groups for acceptance, especially with such negative and harshness are drawn in for a reason. They're weak minded. There is no true greater good in joining the BLM or the KKK. what a horrible cop out. That you cannot create your own destiny or change the way in which you are a part of any culture due to a perceived belief of inadequacy after systematic segregation occurs is weak. Yea, segregation and injustices happened. But how many black men are being pulled over today because they're black? How many white men? I'd think its less to do with skin then where, what, where and how they are driving. But feed that false narrative of persecution. Go Hillary! you need an iphone or something that is in color. Jesus man. Actually, I've seen a lot of the recent BLM photos shown in black and white trying to broach the historical aspect of what they believe they're doing. Still... how long ago was that? And when did the Germans ever get out of line after we locked them in camps after they bombed Pearl Harbor? With all due respect, the amount of ignorant garbage you post around here discredits you from pretty much any discussion involving these issues. Your ignorance is unmatched. And while you claim to be above racism, your insensitivity about these issues can be easily misrepresented as evidence to the contrary. His question was far more limited in scope than your answer was. You claimed that there are years and years (including currently) of systemic persecution. I didn't claim that there was. I said there was. And there's literally 239 years of evidence of this. The scale of these offenses can be debated all you wish. But that doesn't mean they aren't real or didn't happen. And of course these issues shape people's perceptions of police within their community, which was the point. Saying "I don't understand how people could think cops would be out to kill a man" speaks more to the bubble that person is operating in than it does the reality of the world. "Outlook" is often very different from reality. I have no doubt that the children and grandchildren of folks who participated in the civil rights movement received a different lesson on the police than I got as a kid. Whether or not that was appropriate is another matter entirely, and you say it is. I know you have no issue with conspiracy theories, but think of how far up it would have to go in order for there to be a current, systemic attempt at "keeping minorities in check." The laws of the 1950s and 60s were what they were. It was systemic then. The laws of today are what they are. It's a high bar to jump over to get to "systemic" today. I know a lot of that sounds like petty semantics, but I think it's incredibly important to define what we're talking about. Saying that "racism" is the issue driving police misconduct is, I think, highly unproductive and probably even counterproductive. The data is there for you to see. It's clear and unambiguous.
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