Is 2 Seasons Enough ?

[Nihilarian]

So I'm correct in reading that the Bills' week 17 win against NE in a meaningless game matters because of Tom Brady's 1st half stats?

 

Is it your opinion that the same team that perennially lights up Buffalo's D in the 2nd half (as they did in the first meeting that season after being held in check in the first half) would have been unable to do so had the starters stayed in the game? I see no reason to suspect that given how well they performed against Seattle's defense (a better unit) in the Super Bowl, though if love to hear your justification.

 

What we basically have here is a situation where you need to reach to make that meaningless win matter, otherwise your argument about the record getting worse falls flat (spoiler alert: it does anyway for a team that went 4-2 in the division and likely would've been 9-7 had they not played without 5 offensive starters against Jacksonville).

 

Regarding the Sabres: yes, generally when a team improves from historically bad to 0.500 in less than one season's time, adds a cup-winning coach, and has one of (if not THE) highest under-25 talent bases in the league, they're looking at competing for a playoff spot.

 

If you don't agree on the talent base, then let's hear why (I won't hold my breath).

Like the man said, you are what your record says you are and the 2014 Buffalo Bills ended their season at 9-7 and the 2015 Buffalo Bills ended their season at 8-8.

 

As much as I disliked Doug Marrone for his choice of offensive coordinators at least he didn't destroy an all pro area of the team by forcing his scheme down the players throats.

 

 

Until this new owner eventually decides he shouldn't be the one making the choice of a new head coach hire and until Russ Brandon actually maintains his influence solely on the business side of the team I doubt this franchise ever sees the playoffs.

 

 

In regards to the Buffalo Sabres, I can only hope your prognostication of the future of the team holds true because it seems like every year for the last few years I hear from Sabre fans that this should be their year. Those Sabres fans deserve better than near or at the bottom of the division. Let's hope Dan Bylsma can do for the Sabres what he did for Penguins.

[thebandit27]

I have no idea what Sabres' fans you've been exposed to; the mantra for the last 3 years has been "tank tank tank".

 

2015 was a year to show some improvement and let the young core gel--I don't know anyone that had delusions of grandeur regarding the playoffs.

 

As to Marrone and records, think about this for a second (and I'll leave it at that, because I don't want to browbeat you with my opinion): the difference between his record and Rex's is a win against a NE team that held out 4 offensive starters, removed 3 more in the 2nd half, and still managed to surrender less than 300 yards in a one-score loss.

 

I don't see a marked difference.

[Kemp]

Rex did his best when he inherited someone else's team in New York, so I'm not sure why he needs time this time. When he took control of the Jets, they fell apart.

 

When has he developed a winning team?,

[thebandit27]

Rex did his best when he inherited someone else's team in New York, so I'm not sure why he needs time this time. When he took control of the Jets, they fell apart.

 

When has he developed a winning team?,

 

Um, every coach inherits someone else's team.

 

Ryan took Mangini's team that hadn't finished in the top half of the league in total defense and immediately produced the league's #1 defense. He did that with a rookie QB and 4 new starters on defense, so it's a bit of a stretch to say he took someone else's leftovers and got out of their way.

 

Look, I'm not a Rex guy, but some folks are trying way too hard to criticize him. It's quite simple: his approach to the defense for 2015 was an abject failure, and he needs to get it corrected if this team hopes to make the playoffs.

[Kemp]

 

Um, every coach inherits someone else's team.

 

Ryan took Mangini's team that hadn't finished in the top half of the league in total defense and immediately produced the league's #1 defense. He did that with a rookie QB and 4 new starters on defense, so it's a bit of a stretch to say he took someone else's leftovers and got out of their way.

 

Look, I'm not a Rex guy, but some folks are trying way too hard to criticize him. It's quite simple: his approach to the defense for 2015 was an abject failure, and he needs to get it corrected if this team hopes to make the playoffs.

 

Um, maybe you should look at the personnel he inherited vs. the personnel he brought in. What he inherited crushed what he brought in.

 

So, this notion that we should see who he brings in before casting judgment has no history to back up this reasoning.

 

Maybe they will get better under him, but the idea that we should expect it makes no sense, today.

[mannc]

As to Marrone and records, think about this for a second (and I'll leave it at that, because I don't want to browbeat you with my opinion): the difference between his record and Rex's is a win against a NE team that held out 4 offensive starters, removed 3 more in the 2nd half, and still managed to surrender less than 300 yards in a one-score loss.

 

I don't see a marked difference.

I agree that Marrone's 9-7 record was a mirage, but the win vs. NE was certainly no less suspect than the Bills' meaningless win against the pathetic Kellen Moore-led Cowboys in Week 15 this past year. Both Bills teams racked up wins after being eliminated from playoff consideration; both teams' records were therefore somewhat misleading, so I guess I can't disagree with your overall point that there was no "marked difference" between them.

 

As for the "Rex deserves more than 2 years" argument, I can't agree. Rex was not starting from scratch with a team like Cleveland or J-ville that had bottomed out; he inherited a talented roster, especially on the defensive side of the ball. And then there is his lousy record in his last four years with the Jets to consider. Again, Rex is not some fresh-faced coordinator who is just learning the ropes as a HC. He is what he is and he arrived in Buffalo with some baggage that can't be ignored in assessing his fitness to serve. Two years is more than enough for him to demonstrate that he knows what he's doing. He's not off to a good start.

[Mr. WEO]

 

Um, every coach inherits someone else's team.

 

Ryan took Mangini's team that hadn't finished in the top half of the league in total defense and immediately produced the league's #1 defense. He did that with a rookie QB and 4 new starters on defense, so it's a bit of a stretch to say he took someone else's leftovers and got out of their way.

 

Look, I'm not a Rex guy, but some folks are trying way too hard to criticize him. It's quite simple: his approach to the defense for 2015 was an abject failure, and he needs to get it corrected if this team hopes to make the playoffs.

 

And then what happened?

[thebandit27]

 

Um, maybe you should look at the personnel he inherited vs. the personnel he brought in. What he inherited crushed what he brought in.

 

So, this notion that we should see who he brings in before casting judgment has no history to back up this reasoning.

 

Maybe they will get better under him, but the idea that we should expect it makes no sense, today.

 

I'm not sure you read what I wrote.

 

Every coach inherits someone else's players; this isn't up for debate. He did an excellent job of improving the defensive performance of the unit he inherited with the Jets; again, not up for debate.

 

I happen to know quite well who he had versus who he brought in--they acquired their 2nd leading tackler, a starting corner, their starting SS, and their starting RDE that offseason. I'd say a turnover of nearly 40% of a unit's starters makes a significant difference. As to whether or not those guys were key performers, is there any doubt that having guys like Bart Scott, Jim Leonhard, and Marques Douglas--who knew Rex's system better than any of the incumbents, was a major factor in the unit's performance? Compare that to year 1 with Buffalo, when Rex had all of zero guys that had any starting experience in his system.

 

So despite your arguing to the contrary, yes, who Rex brings in makes a big difference, considering that he now has a far greater number of players with experience in his system than he did in year 1.

 

The idea that we shouldn't expect it when 9 of 11 starters are guys with experience in this very system (compared to zero last year) is the one that doesn't makes sense IMO.

[thebandit27]

I agree that Marrone's 9-7 record was a mirage, but the win vs. NE was certainly no less suspect than the Bills' meaningless win against the pathetic Kellen Moore-led Cowboys in Week 15 this past year. Both Bills teams racked up wins after being eliminated from playoff consideration; both teams' records were therefore somewhat misleading, so I guess I can't disagree with your overall point that there was no "marked difference" between them.

 

As for the "Rex deserves more than 2 years" argument, I can't agree. Rex was not starting from scratch with a team like Cleveland or J-ville that had bottomed out; he inherited a talented roster, especially on the defensive side of the ball. And then there is his lousy record in his last four years with the Jets to consider. Again, Rex is not some fresh-faced coordinator who is just learning the ropes as a HC. He is what he is and he arrived in Buffalo with some baggage that can't be ignored in assessing his fitness to serve. Two years is more than enough for him to demonstrate that he knows what he's doing. He's not off to a good start.

 

I never said he's off to a good start. I've said repeatedly that he needs to do a better job this year with the defense.

 

As to Marrone, of course that Cowboys game was silliness; my point is that we're not talking about a major regression from the team that couldn't beat the 2-12 (at the time) Raiders when their playoff lives were on the line, but then magically beat a half-strength NE team on the road the following week.

 

 

And then what happened?

 

Aside from finishing in the top 8 in yards/game in 5 out of 6 seasons?

 

Let's see, the team finished 20th, 20th, 19th, and 24th in PPG allowed in Rex's final 4 seasons. Question: would that possibly have anything to do with an offense that never finished higher than 25th in YPG for 3 consecutive seasons, and then made a jump up to 22nd in his final year there? Come on WEO, you know there's more to points allowed than simple numbers.

 

For example, did you know that in 2011-2014, the Jets finished 5th, 7th, 9th, and 13th in yards/play allowed? Yards/play differential is a key measuring stick in determining if a team's points allowed are a symptom of a bad defense, or a defense that was left in lousy positions by their offense, and in that same time frame, the Jets' offense ranked 28th, 31st, 27th, and 30th in yards/play gained. That's a pretty fair indicator that they weren't exactly getting abused out there.

 

Remember, I'm not a huge Rex guy here; I'm merely putting things in context.

[Freddie's Dead]

Let's get specific. Here are Rex's shortcomings, and where he needs to show marked improvement in 2016:

 

1. Game management - Replay challenges need a HUGE improvement. It's not enough just to get the call reversed, it has to be the right place and time. Jets game 1st and 10 on Jets 20-something line. Fitz bounces a pass to a WR, refs miss it, 8-yard gain. Rex challenges, it is overturned, so it's 2nd and 10 instead of 2nd and 2, BFD. Nearly everyone on the board is saying "Great challenge". No, stupid challenge. If the Jets get a first down there, the challenge was for nothing. Your criteria for throwing the challenge flag can't be based solely on whether it will be overturned. When I did the zebra report last year, the number of mistakes the zebras make per game is staggering. You have to be very selective in what you want to overturn. You throw the flag on big plays and plays that might result in a change of possession (if they're not automatically reviewed). And yes, SOMETIMES YOU MUST THROW THE CHALLENGE FLAG WITHOUT SEEING A CONCLUSIVE REPLAY (yeah, I seddit). Case in point, the bomb in the KC game which was trapped by KC. They hustled to the line and scored a TD while Rex's D scrambled to get ready. THROW THE FLAG, EVEN WITHOUT THE REPLAY. Even if you don't get a call, you get a TO for your defense to recover from the big play and get set for the next play. Rex's failure to act on this play cost us the KC game.

2. Sacks and QB pressures - No explanation necessary.

3. Two-minute drill - The complete failure to install a 2-minute offense for Tyrod all year was inexcusable. Watching Tyrod gesture to his helmet that he couldn't hear the plays and watching the Bills huddle up after every play was ridiculous. They couldn't even take the simple expedient of calling two plays in the huddle. We must have a real 2-minute offense this year.

4. Lack of hustle or confusion after big plays - The Bills would often have to use a timeout or take a delay of game penalty because both offense and defense did not hustle to get the next play called. This is simply lack of focus and discipline, and falls squarely on the coach.

 

I could go on, but these are the 4 key areas where we need big improvement. If we don't see it, then 2 years was 2 years too many.

[Adam]

Not much difference between Rex and Marrone? Rex inherited one of the top defenses in the league and did nothing with it. He had a more experienced Watkins and had McCoy. He also started with a much better quarterback. Yet finished a game behind. One year was too much

[3rdand12]

Not much difference between Rex and Marrone? Rex inherited one of the top defenses in the league and did nothing with it. He had a more experienced Watkins and had McCoy. He also started with a much better quarterback. Yet finished a game behind. One year was too much

you mean the injured McCoy and Injured Watkins? The injured Taylor and the Injured Hogan and the Injured Woods and the injured Karlos Williams and the injured Clay the injured Gragg and the injured Henderson and the injured Miller The injured A Williams the injured Leo the injured Graham the injured Kyle the injured Easily the injured Bradham Powell Riddick and every other LB not named Brown, the emotionally injured #94................

Edited June 30, 2016 by 3rdand12

[Adam]

you mean the injured McCoy and Injured Watkins? The injured Taylor and the Injured Hogan and the Injured Woods and the injured Karlos Williams and the injured Clay the injured Gragg and the injured Henderson and the injured Miller The injured A Williams the injured Leo the injured Graham the injured Kyle the injured Easily the injured Bradham Powell Riddick and every other LB not named Brown, the emotionally injured #94................

yes, because injuries never happen to anyone else. Football is about injuries.

[Augie]

yes, because injuries never happen to anyone else. Football is about injuries.

Damn! I wish I'd known that before pulling a hammy today in tennis. Someone should post a sign or something..... That might have saved me. (Damn things linger.)

[3rdand12]

yes, because injuries never happen to anyone else. Football is about injuries.

Agreed 100 percent. But how was the Bills depth that Rex inherited?

 

some people think Bills had this great roster that should win.

Well sure.

Unless injuries occurred. Then there was a huge drop off.

look at RT for example.

Look at Safety Look at LB.

Imagine if Glenn or Cogs went down. How about Wood?

 

When you can get some decent play from your backups Coaching can get you through. Bills did not have that last year. and if you go back a couple years we did not even have very good starters across the board. Now we do and folks think thats the be all end all. It aint

 

You want to make it to the big game you have to have depth and health.

I am not talking about last years piss poor coaching on defense. I am saying it would not have mattered because the Bills were not a complete team.

look at the RBs

Herron off the street and that other guy, off the street. That what we were starting some games. Bills moved Graham to safety then when healthy Leodis.

thats crazy.

Edited June 30, 2016 by 3rdand12

[Adam]

Agreed 100 percent. But how was the Bills depth that Rex inherited?

 

some people think Bills had this great roster that should win.

Well sure.

Unless injuries occurred. Then there was a huge drop off.

look at RT for example.

Look at Safety Look at LB.

Imagine if Glenn or Cogs went down. How about Wood?

 

When you can get some decent play from your backups Coaching can get you through. Bills did not have that last year. and if you go back a couple years we did not even have very good starters across the board. Now we do and folks think thats the be all end all. It aint

 

You want to make it to the big game you have to have depth and health.

I am not talking about last years piss poor coaching on defense. I am saying it would not have mattered because the Bills were not a complete team.

look at the RBs

Herron off the street and that other guy, off the street. That what we were starting some games. Bills moved Graham to safety then when healthy Leodis.

thats crazy.

I still think no playoffs and Ryan is out of here. New coach comes in and the playoff wait continues.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Adam

[3rdand12]

I still think no playoffs and Ryan is out of here. New coach comes in and the playoff wait continues.

Does not sound like much fun. but if thats your thing I gotta respect it.

 

Myself? I don't know what results are coming. But i do know it will be full on to win everything. It will be the Ryans best effort.

Is that good enough?

[Nihilarian]

Not much difference between Rex and Marrone? Rex inherited one of the top defenses in the league and did nothing with it. He had a more experienced Watkins and had McCoy. He also started with a much better quarterback. Yet finished a game behind. One year was too much

Man, it is so refreshing and heart enlightening to read some of the recent responses like this one.

 

Great point there to just think about the difference in talent on the offensive last season vs the 2014 season. The O-line in 2015 with the addition of Richie Incognito who had a pro bowl season and elevated the play of the players around him. That 2014 offensive line graded last in the league almost all year and finished up 31st. Last year with the upgrade of an all pro-OG the Bills ended the season graded at #9 overall. Kind of astonishing how much impact one player can have!

 

Then add in an offensive coordinator who actually knows how to build an explosive offensive scheme. Because of the new people like Greg Roman, Tyrod Taylor, Shady McCoy, Charles Clay and Richie Incognito the 2015 Buffalo Bills led the league in "big plays". Those Big Plays are categorized by runs over 10 yards and pass plays over 25 yards. That, along with the #2 team in the league in rushing attempts and the #1 team in the league in rushing.

 

 

Now think about how screwed up the defense was last year to the point the Bills had two guys in the secondary* who played great almost all season In Darby and Gilmore and yet were hung out to dry game after game with the league's worst defense in pressuring the opposing QB because the head coach didn't know a better scheme.

 

A big reason I agree with Adam that "One year was too much. The longer the Bills keep retaining bad coaches the longer it will take to find the man who will get this team to sweep the Patriots and get the Bills to the super bowl.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Nihilarian

[CodeMonkey]

Does not sound like much fun. but if thats your thing I gotta respect it.

 

Myself? I don't know what results are coming. But i do know it will be full on to win everything. It will be the Ryans best effort.

Is that good enough?

That really is the question, isn't it. History says a resounding NO in my opinion. But my opinion matters not. One thing it will not be with the Ryan brothers, is boring!

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Hell, some 'experts' here were calling for him to be fired half way through last season.

 

if we start out poorly the howls will be unrelenting.