Is 2 Seasons Enough ?

[GunnerBill]

I know for a fact that when Schwartz was interviewed for the HC position he was asked if he would consider remaining as DC in the event someone else was hired. Schwartz said no. Again, this was BEFORE Ryan even entered the picture.

 

I don't doubt your source at all but I know equally for a fact that Hue Jackson had he got the job had intended to ask Schwartz to remain. You cannot say for certain can you that had they gone with an offensive coach like Jackson, and had that coach promised to leave Schwartz in total control of the defense with minimal interference, that Schwartz would still have insisted on going?

 

Once they went with Rex a renowned defensive expert himself with his own ideas about how to play defense then Schwartz was obviously going to insist on leaving.

[BBFO]

Don't forget special teams.......and all the other stuff.

True our ST was totally revamped we lost a lot of players on ST. Wish we could've gotten a stud PR or KR in free agency but hopefully someone will step up!!! I think our defense will improve drastically this year.

[3rdand12]

True our ST was totally revamped we lost a lot of players on ST. Wish we could've gotten a stud PR or KR in free agency but hopefully someone will step up!!! I think our defense will improve drastically this year.

I like your attitude !

[vorpma]

6-10 or worse I think he's gone.

 

7-9 50/50.

 

8-8 or 9-7 he gets another year probably.

 

And obviously 10-6 or better he definitely comes back.

[vincec]

2 years is not enough for any HC. To be fair to Rex and Roman, they need at least 3 years to build their coaching staffs and fully implement their programs. And Whaley needs at least three years to build a roster that fits their schemes.

 

Coaches often - though not always - get better when given a chance to build something.

 

Belichick coached the Browns for five years. I bet they wish they had given him more time.

 

Both the Jets and Pats fired Pete Carroll before he found success with the Seahawks.

 

Even Vince Lombardi didn't win a playoff game till his third year with the Packers.

 

Coaches know it takes time to build a winner which is why they don't want to coach for teams that pull the trigger too fast. Let's not be one of those teams.

 

This is just not true. As I mentioned in a previous post, I can't even think of a single example of a coach in the last 30 years whose team wasn't clearly on the upswing after his second season but subsequently turned that situation into a winner.

 

Even your examples show the opposite of what you want.

Vince Lombardi never had a losing season in his career. GB was 1-10 the year before he took over. His first season they were 7-5 and they only got better from there.

Seahawks were 5-11 before Carrol got there. The next season was 7-9 and by season three they were in the playoffs. They haven't had a losing season since.

Belickick made in work in NE with Brady, but he had 4 losing seasons out of 5 in Cleveland and when he left there was no sign that a turnaround was in the cards.

 

If Rex comes in to a 9-7 team and leads them to worse records in his first two seasons, then the chances of him turning it around in Buffalo are historically non-existent.

Edited June 27, 2016 by vincec

[ScrewyLouie]

Well we are in the time of year for us football & more importantly Bills fans that is the most boring time of the year, until camp opens we will all be looking for things to talk about & this is something i have pondered .

 

Rex is in his second year & there has been talk of him being on the hot seat if he doesn't take the team to the play offs, but is 2 seasons enough time ? I don't think so !!

 

The Pegula's are very smart owners & i think they should & do know better that it takes more time than 2 seasons to completely turn a team into a Patriot like team. They are looking at all options for the stadium & i think they have done their due diligence as far as coaching teenier goes.

 

Plus there is a lot to be said about stability as far as a coach staffs are concerned but in todays world instant gratification when it come to fans as far as coaching change is paramount & all other common sense is secondary !

 

There has been some comparisons between the Bills previous coach Marrone & Rex as far as records & defense but that isn't really a fair comparison. Marrone if you take into consideration that the Pats game IF Brady (and others) would have played there is a really good chance that he would have a 8 & 8 record not a 9 & 7 .

 

In Rex first year he went a legit 8 & 8 & our conference record was much better even with a complete scheme change on both sides of the ball, factor in him trying to keep some familiarity as to not completely brake a dominant defense from the year before (which was probably a mistake looking back) Add in that our now new DB coach Ed Reed has said there was a huge lack of communication & effort on that squads part.

 

Throw in the mix one highly paid cry baby that has went to Miami & it spelled disaster for that D

squad . I for one will love to see the difference this year to last on D side of the ball, i think the change will be enormous & Rex along with Rob will redeem themselves !

 

I believe even if Rex doesn't go to the play offs this year that just 2 seasons is not enough for him he needs at the very least 3 & if nothing else the Bills haven't been in the media this much since the 90's !! I like the fact that most every time i surf the web sports sites you will see at least one article about our beloved Bills or our coach.

 

But i think the drought ends this year ! Go Rex - Go Bills !!!

2 seasons is more than enough

[K-9]

 

I don't doubt your source at all but I know equally for a fact that Hue Jackson had he got the job had intended to ask Schwartz to remain. You cannot say for certain can you that had they gone with an offensive coach like Jackson, and had that coach promised to leave Schwartz in total control of the defense with minimal interference, that Schwartz would still have insisted on going?

 

Once they went with Rex a renowned defensive expert himself with his own ideas about how to play defense then Schwartz was obviously going to insist on leaving.

All I can say for certain is that during his interview for the HC position, Schwartz said no when asked if he would consider remaining as DC if someone else was hired and that one of the reasons why was because he thought any new coach should have a say in naming his staff. Again, all that was before RR was even considered for an interview, let alone being hired.

 

Perhaps he would have accepted the job from Hugh Jackson, but that's a different discussion.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[FireChan]

All I can say for certain is that during his interview for the HC position, Schwartz said no when asked if he would consider remaining as DC if someone else was hired and that one of the reasons why was because he thought any new coach should have a say in naming his staff. Again, all that was before RR was even considered for an interview, let alone being hired.

 

Perhaps he would have accepted the job from Hugh Jackson, but that's a different discussion.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Does Schwartz have any reason to say "yes" in that scenario? He was the one soon to be interviewing for the HC position, it's bad business to say "oh by the way, I'll do my job again for lesser pay/prestige too if you want another HC."

[K-9]

Does Schwartz have any reason to say "yes" in that scenario? He was the one soon to be interviewing for the HC position, it's bad business to say "oh by the way, I'll do my job again for lesser pay/prestige too if you want another HC."

Sure he had a reason to say yes. $2m per year for two more years worth of reasons. He could have locked in his entire D staff for the duration as well. Not to mention a 4th ranked defense. Another year or two of that and he's back in HC discussions.

 

Not sure what you mean by "soon to be interviewing for the HC position" as it was during his interview for the job that he was asked the question and said no.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited June 27, 2016 by K-9

[Sisyphean Bills]

Does Schwartz have any reason to say "yes" in that scenario? He was the one soon to be interviewing for the HC position, it's bad business to say "oh by the way, I'll do my job again for lesser pay/prestige too if you want another HC."

 

Seems like a moot point. Mike Tomlin was one such exception when he came in as the Steelers head coach and left the Steelers operation of defense, one that didn't match his own background, in place. And recall where the Steelers were as an organization at the time.

 

So the question is how often does an experienced head coach—one coming into a sub-par team—actually agree to "just go with the flow" and leave things the same?

 

Even if Schwartz had offered to pay the Bills to remain as the defensive coordinator, the better bet is he'd have been sacked anyway.

[FireChan]

Sure he had a reason to say yes. $2m per year for two more years worth of reasons. He could have locked in his entire D staff for the duration as well. Not to mention a 4th ranked defense. Another year or two of that and he's back in HC discussions.

 

Not sure what you mean by "soon to be interviewing for the HC position" as it was during his interview for the job that he was asked the question and said no.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Temporary insanity.

 

But you say "no" during the interview for the HC. You don't offer your services for a lesser position while trying to win the greater one. That's bargaining 101. Schwartz's leverage was his #4 defense with the Bills. You don't offer that up for free.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is even though he said no during the interview process, had an offensive HC been hired, he may have gone back on that. After failing to secure the HC position, he may have thought he could put out another great D for a year then use that to get another job, as you said.

 

Seems like a moot point. Mike Tomlin was one such exception when he came in as the Steelers head coach and left the Steelers operation of defense, one that didn't match his own background, in place. And recall where the Steelers were as an organization at the time.

 

So the question is how often does an experienced head coachone coming into a sub-par teamactually agree to "just go with the flow" and leave things the same?

 

Even if Schwartz had offered to pay the Bills to remain as the defensive coordinator, the better bet is he'd have been sacked anyway.

The better bet is that every Bills HC will be sacked, every player will suck and every season will result in missed playoffs.

 

Anyway, it doesn't happen often, no. And maybe Hue Jackson or whoever does fire Schwartz. But it was an effective guarantee that he was gone with the Rex hire. It wouldn't have been with Gase etc etc.

Edited June 27, 2016 by FireChan

[Nanker]

Is two seasons enough? Probably depends on what you're making. Eggs - all you need is 2, salt and pepper.

But when I make chili or ribs, I use a whole lot more.

[hondo in seattle]

This is just not true. As I mentioned in a previous post, I can't even think of a single example of a coach in the last 30 years whose team wasn't clearly on the upswing after his second season but subsequently turned that situation into a winner.

 

...

 

My thesis is that some good coaches need more than 2 years to build a winning program. And it is true.

 

Bill Belichick left Cleveland with a 36-44 record (5-11 in his last season). I bet Brown fans now wish they had been a little more patient.

 

Marv Levy accomplished little in nearly 5 years with KC (he was fired after a 3-6 start to the '82 season). He later turned his career around.

 

Pete Carroll was horrible with the Jets. And he delivered progressively worse W-L records during his 3 years with NE. (10-6, 9-7, 8-8).

 

Tom Landry didn't achieve a winning record until his 7th year as a head coach.

 

Chuck Noll has his first winning season in his 4th year.

 

Hand Stram, in his second go around as head coach, didn't achieve a winning season till his 4th season with KC.

 

Bill Parcels, in his second go around as head coach, finished 6-10 in this third year with the Pats (definitely not on the upswing!). The next year, he took the team to the Super Bowl.

 

Revisiting Parcells, he went 10-6 his first year with Dallas and then 6-10 his next year. He finished with winning records the next two years.

 

Mike McCarthy went 8-8 his first season, and 6-8 his third season. He later turned it around.

 

Sean Payton when 10-6 his first season and 7-9 his second season. He later turned it around.

 

All these great head coaches needed more than 2 years. I bet their fans are happy their owners didn't put these guys on 2 year leashes. And, no, I'm not claiming Rex is as a good a coach as these guys. But most of these guys didn't prove themselves as good coaches until after their second year. Sometimes, not until their second team.

 

It takes a while for a coach to implement their schemes with the players and really get execution and buy-in where they want. And it takes a couple years, typically, for a head coach to build his staff. Virtually no head coach has the staff he wants in his first year. Most of the coaches he respects are already employed so his first year he makes do with what's available.

[Marv's Neighbor]

2 seasons is not enough BUT Rex ran his mouth sooo much already that he has painted himself into a coach's corner. He now needs to back it up!

[8-8 Forever?]

I'm sure you have a ton of insight into a mryiad of subjects. I don't question that. With regard to the Schwartz issue, you are missing the mark and I only seek to edify you on that score. I know for a fact that when Schwartz was interviewed for the HC position he was asked if he would consider remaining as DC in the event someone else was hired. Schwartz said no. Again, this was BEFORE Ryan even entered the picture. If you wish to keep insisting that the Bills could have forced him to stay contractually, feel free. But that isn't germane to what transpired and it just isn't the way head coaching transitions are conducted.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Correct. When Ralph died (or when ownership changes in general) , that was it for the entire coaching staff. It gets blown up and you start over. Just the way it goes. As regards, DCs and OCs who are former HC, Its up or out. Schwartz was denied and that was it. The guy doesn't want to be a DC. He wants another HC gig and is prepared to wait for it. At this level, OCs and DCs have plenty of dough, they can't be forced to do anything.

Edited June 27, 2016 by 8and8-->NoMore

[billykaykay]

 

My thesis is that some good coaches need more than 2 years to build a winning program. And it is true.

 

Bill Belichick left Cleveland with a 36-44 record (5-11 in his last season). I bet Brown fans now wish they had been a little more patient.

 

Marv Levy accomplished little in nearly 5 years with KC (he was fired after a 3-6 start to the '82 season). He later turned his career around.

 

Pete Carroll was horrible with the Jets. And he delivered progressively worse W-L records during his 3 years with NE. (10-6, 9-7, 8-8).

 

Tom Landry didn't achieve a winning record until his 7th year as a head coach.

 

Chuck Noll has his first winning season in his 4th year.

 

Hand Stram, in his second go around as head coach, didn't achieve a winning season till his 4th season with KC.

 

Bill Parcels, in his second go around as head coach, finished 6-10 in this third year with the Pats (definitely not on the upswing!). The next year, he took the team to the Super Bowl.

 

Revisiting Parcells, he went 10-6 his first year with Dallas and then 6-10 his next year. He finished with winning records the next two years.

 

Mike McCarthy went 8-8 his first season, and 6-8 his third season. He later turned it around.

 

Sean Payton when 10-6 his first season and 7-9 his second season. He later turned it around.

 

All these great head coaches needed more than 2 years. I bet their fans are happy their owners didn't put these guys on 2 year leashes. And, no, I'm not claiming Rex is as a good a coach as these guys. But most of these guys didn't prove themselves as good coaches until after their second year. Sometimes, not until their second team.

 

It takes a while for a coach to implement their schemes with the players and really get execution and buy-in where they want. And it takes a couple years, typically, for a head coach to build his staff. Virtually no head coach has the staff he wants in his first year. Most of the coaches he respects are already employed so his first year he makes do with what's available.

Anyone notice how great QB's coincide with these coachs' winning records?

[Ronin]

This team is talented enough to make the playoffs. Let's hope Rex can coach 'em up real good.

 

We were more talented on D last year and our D was below average.

 

Unless Watkins hits the field at 100% in September our offense is going to regress regardless of any strides that Taylor makes. We have no bona fide starting WRs after Watkins. If he isn't there or is there hobbled then teams will stack the line and force us to win an uphill battle running the ball.

 

If Watkins isn't there in September or significantly injured despite starting, and that doesn't change all season, I think we'll be hard pressed to win 4 games.

 

I'd have drafted Treadwell in round one and Cody Whitehair in round 2, we've have been a whole helluva lot better off now.

 

Lawson's going to be useless this season and Ragland, given 'Bama's LB pedigree, has an uphill battle to be an above average LB. Talk of any other draft picks being relevant is way way way to premature, particularly given Whaley's 3rd and later round draft history.

 

The bottom line is that I disgree on how talented we are. IMO we're below average in talent. We're tight in some spots: LT, LG, C, DTs, but that's about it. OLBs can used upgrades, DEs are questionable after Hughes who's out of his element, historically, in Ryan's current scheme, we have a huge coverage hole in the middle of our back-7 with the ILBS and Ss.

 

Offensively Shady's dicey too health wise with the hammy. No one proven after him. Our rookie hasn't played in two years, Karlos besides being grossly overweight can play vs. Miami but no other teams. We don't have a WR worthy of note after Watkins and Woods and the latter's hardly a starting caliber WR.

 

QB, we'll see, but if we can get above average play there we'll be fortunate.

Edited June 27, 2016 by TaskersGhost

[Nihilarian]

 

My thesis is that some good coaches need more than 2 years to build a winning program. And it is true.

 

Bill Belichick left Cleveland with a 36-44 record (5-11 in his last season). I bet Brown fans now wish they had been a little more patient.

 

Marv Levy accomplished little in nearly 5 years with KC (he was fired after a 3-6 start to the '82 season). He later turned his career around.

 

Pete Carroll was horrible with the Jets. And he delivered progressively worse W-L records during his 3 years with NE. (10-6, 9-7, 8-8).

 

Tom Landry didn't achieve a winning record until his 7th year as a head coach.

 

Chuck Noll has his first winning season in his 4th year.

 

Hand Stram, in his second go around as head coach, didn't achieve a winning season till his 4th season with KC.

 

Bill Parcels, in his second go around as head coach, finished 6-10 in this third year with the Pats (definitely not on the upswing!). The next year, he took the team to the Super Bowl.

 

Revisiting Parcells, he went 10-6 his first year with Dallas and then 6-10 his next year. He finished with winning records the next two years.

 

Mike McCarthy went 8-8 his first season, and 6-8 his third season. He later turned it around.

 

Sean Payton when 10-6 his first season and 7-9 his second season. He later turned it around.

 

All these great head coaches needed more than 2 years. I bet their fans are happy their owners didn't put these guys on 2 year leashes. And, no, I'm not claiming Rex is as a good a coach as these guys. But most of these guys didn't prove themselves as good coaches until after their second year. Sometimes, not until their second team.

 

It takes a while for a coach to implement their schemes with the players and really get execution and buy-in where they want. And it takes a couple years, typically, for a head coach to build his staff. Virtually no head coach has the staff he wants in his first year. Most of the coaches he respects are already employed so his first year he makes do with what's available.

That might be the case when a new head coach takes over a trainwreck of a team that just went 4-12 or something worse with very little talent on the roster. That didn't happen in Buffalo last year.

 

The 2014 Buffalo Bills were 9-7 and had the #4 overall defense loaded with, not just top talent, but elite talent! The GM insisted that the team was ready to "win now" and went all out to bring in offensive players like Shady McCoy and Clay to make that happen. Last year's team had the talent on the roster to make the players and almost all Bills fans agree with this.

 

 

Not only did Rex Ryan make the team worse by a game in going 8-8... he made that area of his expertise worse by a huge margin! Going from the number one team in the NFL in sacks, QB pressures to dead last in the NFL in QB pressures and 31st in sacks was beyond ridiculous! It was so bad last year that the only team worse in sacks in the 50+ year history of the franchise that had fewer sacks was during a strike season! This happened on a team with the best defensive line talent in the entire league! Not to mention that having the two best cornerbacks in the league saved his bloviating arse.

 

Like someone else stated that great coaches like Mike Tomlin get hired and they see that the defensive scheme is already good enough... so they leave it alone to focus on other areas.

 

It wasn't just screwing with and destroying a great defense. It was the lack of preparation for some games out of the division. It looked like very lazy efforts in defensive preparation and the offense looked prepared each week. The lack of team discipline on both sides of the ball and not just in being the second worst team in the NFL in penalties Bad game management and in one game asked why he didn't throw a flag his response was he didn't see it on the big screen! Then there was the coaching stunk with defensive plays being called late and late player substitutions.

 

Rex Ryan didn't look like a head coach in his second stint. He looked like a bad rookie head coach that needed more time to learn his job. I can only think that the sole reason Mr. "we will Build a bully" who promised the playoffs and a #1 defense is still the Bills head coach is because Russ Brandon begged Terry Pegula for another season. I can only hope Rex is on a very short leash and should the Bills lose their first 4 or 5 games that he gets replaced by someone who will instill some discipline and good coaching into the players.

[thebandit27]

 

 

 

Not only did Rex Ryan make the team worse by a game in going 8-8... he made that area of his expertise worse by a huge margin! Going from the number one team in the NFL in sacks, QB pressures to dead last in the NFL in QB pressures and 31st in sacks was beyond ridiculous! It was so bad last year that the only team worse in sacks in the 50+ year history of the franchise that had fewer sacks was during a strike season! This happened on a team with the best defensive line talent in the entire league! Not to mention that having the two best cornerbacks in the league saved his bloviating arse.

 

 

The 9-7 record from 2014 included a win in week 17 against a NE team that rested their starters, so it's hardly a major regression from a record stantpoint--it's basically a wash.

 

 

 

 

Rex Ryan didn't look like a head coach in his second stint. He looked like a bad rookie head coach that needed more time to learn his job. I can only think that the sole reason Mr. "we will Build a bully" who promised the playoffs and a #1 defense is still the Bills head coach is because Russ Brandon begged Terry Pegula for another season. I can only hope Rex is on a very short leash and should the Bills lose their first 4 or 5 games that he gets replaced by someone who will instill some discipline and good coaching into the players.

 

Rex is still the coach because Terry Pegula doesn't have knee-jerk reactions; he hires people and lets them do their job(s). He isn't going to fire Rex after one season, and he's probably not going to fire him after two seasons unless there's a collapse of epic proportion. When he acquired the Sabres, he did everything but crown Darcy Regier and Lindy Ruff the greatest duo since Batman and Robin, and when it became clear they weren't getting results, he gave them a full season-and-a-half to right the ship before he finally had to let them go.

[Nihilarian]

 

The 9-7 record from 2014 included a win in week 17 against a NE team that rested their starters, so it's hardly a major regression from a record stantpoint--it's basically a wash.

 

Rex is still the coach because Terry Pegula doesn't have knee-jerk reactions; he hires people and lets them do their job(s). He isn't going to fire Rex after one season, and he's probably not going to fire him after two seasons unless there's a collapse of epic proportion. When he acquired the Sabres, he did everything but crown Darcy Regier and Lindy Ruff the greatest duo since Batman and Robin, and when it became clear they weren't getting results, he gave them a full season-and-a-half to right the ship before he finally had to let them go.

Yea well, the Patriots didn't rest the starters until after the second half. Tom Brady started that game and played a full half while going 8 of 16 for only 80 yards and this game was played in New England!! Then this backup in Jimmy Garoppolo only went 10 of 17 for 90 yards in the second half.

 

The Bills defense held that super bowl winning Patriots team to only 144 passing yards all game and to only three field goals in scoring all game. That year the Patriots were the #4 scoring offense in the league. I get a kick out of Bills fans who cite this only win in New England against the Patriots since 2000 as a nothing game.

 

 

 

Please don't equate anything this new Bills owner does with his other sports team to the Buffalo Bills football team as I'm already depressed with the situation as it is. I keep hearing from Bills fans that the Buffalo Sabres have the best young roster in the league and how eventually they will start winning. When exactly?

 

Pegula took over that team in 2011 after he bought in from Tom Golisano who owned the team from 2003. Golisano actually inherited a real trainwreck of a team both on the ice and off and in four years were withing in one game of the Stanley cup. Under Golisano, the Sabres were in the playoffs more often than not.