thebug Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 John, in a perfect world you keep Kane...but the Sabres and that D lineup far from perfect. And ya ain't trading Larsson or Nicky D for a top 4 DMan/prospect. Have to give to get, and he is the only guy that the Sabres can dangle that I can see. Might have to give prospects and picks to get a solid D man/prospect if they want to keep Kane.
JohnC Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 John, in a perfect world you keep Kane...but the Sabres and that D lineup far from perfect. And ya ain't trading Larsson or Nicky D for a top 4 DMan/prospect. Have to give to get, and he is the only guy that the Sabres can dangle that I can see. So what you are suggesting is that you should dig a hole to fill another hole. You still have a hole and the one you created by letting a scorer go is more difficult to fill. The mistake you and others are making is that you are being shortsighted and viewing our situation as it stands. Let's put things in perspective. We are starting to emerge from the gut wrenching pain of an actual full rebuild to building a well-rounded roster that can seriously compete. You and I very well know that we are not there yet but we are unquestionably moving in the right direction. Immediate help is not coming this year. So what---what did you expect? What we do know about our team is that as the roster is currently constructed it doesn't have many natural scorers. What you are recommending is accentuating a weakness and make it even weaker for a quick fix that isn't really a quick fix. Do you really believe that another team is willing to give up a genuine top two pairing defenseman for a player that has a history of being a rogue when he is on his own time? Next year the Sabres will be able to cleanse some players from the roster and open up some cap space. That is the time to buy, We may not be able to get some premier players but we should be able to add some solid defensemen who can turn a source of liability to a level of stability. Next year Guhle will be a better prepared player to add to the blue line. The Kulivov for Pysyk deal still irritates me. However, even if we don't keep Kulikov we still have his valued cap space. Adding some quality (not top shelf) next year will stabilize the precarious situation we now find ourselves on the blue line. Don't panic. Don't rush to action. Be patient. Adding a building block a little later is better than taking away a building block and then going back again to address the problem that you created in order to address another issue. Don't take a step backward when by by being patient you can continue moving forward. I respectfully and sternly recommend patience. Kane is a legitimate 30 goal scorer on a team that has a paucity of scorers. Let's stop being caviller in trading a talent that isn't readily available when reasonable options for buttressing the defense will open up next year.
JohnC Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 Might have to give prospects and picks to get a solid D man/prospect if they want to keep Kane. Refer to my post#2404 to Plenzmed1. It would be wrong to give up more prospects and picks to get a solid defenseman or ready prospect because of our situation this season. Be patient and engage in the market when more cap space is available. It would be a mistake to mortgage more of our future for a good defenseman when opportunities will be created when all teams have to address their cap situations. It's not about this season. With a wider perspective you should be more receptive to my thoughts in this issue. Exhibiting patience while under duress is also an exhibition of courage and intelligence. Most often being impetuous is being foolish. Don't panic! Trust the process because it is working.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 Refer to my post#2404 to Plenzmed1. It would be wrong to give up more prospects and picks to get a solid defenseman or ready prospect because of our situation this season. Be patient and engage in the market when more cap space is available. It would be a mistake to mortgage more of our future for a good defenseman when opportunities will be created when all teams have to address their cap situations. It's not about this season. With a wider perspective you should be more receptive to my thoughts in this issue. Exhibiting patience while under duress is also an exhibition of courage and intelligence. Most often being impetuous is being foolish. Don't panic! Trust the process because it is working. With all due respect, it's always about some ambiguous future season in buffalo.
JohnC Posted January 22, 2017 Posted January 22, 2017 With all due respect, it's always about some ambiguous future season in buffalo. If you can't deal with the reality of the present then go ahead and drink yourself into a stupor. Things might not change for the better but in your condition you can create an illusion that makes you more content, at least until you sober up.
ricojes Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) Refer to my post#2404 to Plenzmed1. It would be wrong to give up more prospects and picks to get a solid defenseman or ready prospect because of our situation this season. Be patient and engage in the market when more cap space is available. It would be a mistake to mortgage more of our future for a good defenseman when opportunities will be created when all teams have to address their cap situations. It's not about this season. With a wider perspective you should be more receptive to my thoughts in this issue. Exhibiting patience while under duress is also an exhibition of courage and intelligence. Most often being impetuous is being foolish. Don't panic! Trust the process because it is working. Correct, plus you'll get better trade value in the off season as opposed to during the season. Be patient and stay the course. Trading prospects to maybe make a run at the playoffs this season is foolish. Even is they make the playoffs, they don't have the team to do any damage. Hopefully the Sabres can stock up on some picks this trade deadline for added ammunition this summer.... Edited January 23, 2017 by ricojes
snafu Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 Correct, plus you'll get better trade value in the off season as opposed to during the season. Be patient and stay the course. Trading prospects to maybe make a run at the playoffs this season is foolish. Even is they make the playoffs, they don't have the team to do any damage. Hopefully the Sabres can stock up on some picks this trade deadline for added ammunition this summer.... I'm wondering whether the expansion draft this summer will affect the trade deadline during the season -- or any trades before the expansion draft for that matter. It would be tough for me (if I were a GM) to give away picks for a guy that I may need to expose and lose to Las Vegas.
JohnC Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 Correct, plus you'll get better trade value in the off season as opposed to during the season. Be patient and stay the course. Trading prospects to maybe make a run at the playoffs this season is foolish. Even is they make the playoffs, they don't have the team to do any damage. Hopefully the Sabres can stock up on some picks this trade deadline for added ammunition this summer.... Usually as the trade deadline approaches the standard hockey cycle is non-playoff team shedding veteran players to playoff teams and teams making a push for the playoffs for picks that are not too high. Toronto was able to maximize their return because they had some high salaried talented players that were good enough to make a difference for teams. Kessler fell in that category. The Kessler deal for the Penquins paid off because he was a factor in their cup run. The Sabres have a number of similar type players that maybe can be parlayed in a deal. Foligno, Carrier and Bailey are similar in that they are big, fast skaters and play hard. What is that going to get you in return? Not much because although they are contributors they are replaceable. As I said a in prior post my preference is stay the course and wait for the market to open up when teams are cap strapped. Bonanza trades usually end up filling a hole by creating another hole. Organizations that have an excess of talent down on the farm and have accumulated picks are better positioned to make the big deals. Our farm talent has been depleted so we have less to draw from.
shrader Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 I'm wondering whether the expansion draft this summer will affect the trade deadline during the season -- or any trades before the expansion draft for that matter. It would be tough for me (if I were a GM) to give away picks for a guy that I may need to expose and lose to Las Vegas. It's definitely going to play a role and it's something that's crossed my mind this weekend when it comes to the Kane stuff. I haven't been crazy about the idea of moving him, but I warmed on it a bit yesterday. If they're going to trade for a defenseman, he has to be the most likely candidate for that deal. I don't like weakening the offense, but at the same time, if our farm system is going to replenish any gaps in this lineup, it's not going to be the blue line. There's absolutely nothing there. So if you can find the right defenseman (something I'm very skeptical about), you pull that trigger... but you don't do it until the offseason. Since we only have two blue liners worth protecting, you protect the maximum number of forwards. Without a trade, I don't know where that improved blue line is going to come from. You've got Guhle coming, but they need far more than that. I'm fine with expecting him to fill a 3rd pair role, but what this team still really needs is a 2 or 3 guy back there and good luck finding that. Shattenkirk is the only serious option in free agency and that's not going to happen at the kind of money he's going to command. We're left shopping in the bargain bins again and it's a miracle if you get something better than a 3rd pairing guy there.
plenzmd1 Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 Usually as the trade deadline approaches the standard hockey cycle is non-playoff team shedding veteran players to playoff teams and teams making a push for the playoffs for picks that are not too high. Toronto was able to maximize their return because they had some high salaried talented players that were good enough to make a difference for teams. Kessler fell in that category. The Kessler deal for the Penquins paid off because he was a factor in their cup run. The Sabres have a number of similar type players that maybe can be parlayed in a deal. Foligno, Carrier and Bailey are similar in that they are big, fast skaters and play hard. What is that going to get you in return? Not much because although they are contributors they are replaceable. As I said a in prior post my preference is stay the course and wait for the market to open up when teams are cap strapped. Bonanza trades usually end up filling a hole by creating another hole. Organizations that have an excess of talent down on the farm and have accumulated picks are better positioned to make the big deals. Our farm talent has been depleted so we have less to draw from. Kessell was a July 1 deal, not trade deadline. And right in your post is why Kane needs to be the guy included in a trade.No one else on the team will get you quality back. If you want to stay the course with this current makeup on D, god bless ya. I will take my chances one of the many forward prospects in Rochester can replace Kane more than i am that any Dman in the system can be a top 4 . Let's also not forget Sam and Jack are up after next year. between ROR, Jack, Sam...really not room for another $6-$7M contract there.
shrader Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 Let's also not forget Sam and Jack are up after next year. between ROR, Jack, Sam...really not room for another $6-$7M contract there. I can't see any world where Sam and Jack aren't both extended this summer. Maybe Reinhart looks for some sort of bridge deal, but Eichel is going to get a 7-8 year one immediately.
plenzmd1 Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 I can't see any world where Sam and Jack aren't both extended this summer. Maybe Reinhart looks for some sort of bridge deal, but Eichel is going to get a 7-8 year one immediately. agree...and Kane is up at the same time...that's why I am saying fitting him in as well will be tough..unless we still have a JV D
shrader Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 agree...and Kane is up at the same time...that's why I am saying fitting him in as well will be tough..unless we still have a JV D That's the exact point where young guys on entry level deals need to start filling out the depth roles in the lineup. Just look at the revolving door of guys you've never heard out who have been filling out the Penguin roster for years while they remain a perennial contender.
JohnC Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 Kessell was a July 1 deal, not trade deadline. And right in your post is why Kane needs to be the guy included in a trade.No one else on the team will get you quality back. If you want to stay the course with this current makeup on D, god bless ya. I will take my chances one of the many forward prospects in Rochester can replace Kane more than i am that any Dman in the system can be a top 4 . Let's also not forget Sam and Jack are up after next year. between ROR, Jack, Sam...really not room for another $6-$7M contract there. Let's look at what our options are on the blue line . Guhle will definitely be a good addition. I'm certainly not a devotee of Kulikov but either he is not re-signed and money is save with his departure or he stabilizes as a player when healthy and plays reasonably well. Murray had to have seen something in his game to make a deal for him. A number of players' contracts will be shed affording us the ability to pick up some good (not top tier) defensemen who could shore up that unit. Is Bogo a lost cause? Not necessarily. When he is paired with a good player his play is elevated. And let's not forget McCabe who is emerging as a good player. There is this mistaken notion that unless your backline is staffed by all-star caliber of players the unit can't capably function. That isn't how I see it. The Sabres can add another couple of good to solid d-men and make that unit change from being a major liability to being a good unit. As you indirectly alluded to we have some young emerging players who in the not too distant future will need to be compensated with rich contracts. Instead of adding a cap busting elite defenseman it would be better to spread the resources for a couple of good defensemen. It's about balancing out the contracts as much as the talent. My recommendation is the same as before. Don't panic. Ride it out and then be judicious when the market has players to offer.
snafu Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 It's definitely going to play a role and it's something that's crossed my mind this weekend when it comes to the Kane stuff. I haven't been crazy about the idea of moving him, but I warmed on it a bit yesterday. If they're going to trade for a defenseman, he has to be the most likely candidate for that deal. I don't like weakening the offense, but at the same time, if our farm system is going to replenish any gaps in this lineup, it's not going to be the blue line. There's absolutely nothing there. So if you can find the right defenseman (something I'm very skeptical about), you pull that trigger... but you don't do it until the offseason. Since we only have two blue liners worth protecting, you protect the maximum number of forwards. Without a trade, I don't know where that improved blue line is going to come from. You've got Guhle coming, but they need far more than that. I'm fine with expecting him to fill a 3rd pair role, but what this team still really needs is a 2 or 3 guy back there and good luck finding that. Shattenkirk is the only serious option in free agency and that's not going to happen at the kind of money he's going to command. We're left shopping in the bargain bins again and it's a miracle if you get something better than a 3rd pairing guy there. It is way too early to figure out who's going to be protected, but If I understand it right, it is 7 forwards plus 3 defensemen and 1 goalie OR 8 of any combination and 1 goalie. If it were today, and it were me making this decision, I'd go 7+3+1 and protect Risto, McCabe and Bogosian and pair Bogo with Guhle next year. Then focus on acquiring speed, size and skill on the frontline to upgrade what we've got now, and get a #5 and #6 defenseman who can eat as many minutes as possible (I think this is the way that the NYR and Toronto are presently built). That's one way that Kane can actually be retained for the future. Because it seems that the only way to succeed with 4 defensemen is by outscoring the other team and keeping the pressure on their blueliners. I also think this way the Sabres can use Kuliov/Gionta money on either a #3D or another forward. Moulson/Gorges $$ comes off the books the following year for more upgrades -- and in the next two drafts I think there's an extra second rounder and an extra 3rd rounder to help stock up on future help. There. All fixed.
QCity Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 protect Risto, McCabe and Bogosian I think the front office would be thrilled to see Vegas take that contract off our hands (I would). His play so far isn't even close to the $5.7M AAV hit for the next 4 years. That's Shattenkirk money. I think a guy like Alzner makes more sense. His point production isn't the greatest, but he's very reliable in his own end. He's a lefty shot and fantastic on the PK (3rd in league). Justin Schultz is having a resurgence in Pitt this year, and while it may be hard to pry him out of that town, definitely should be on the radar.
26CornerBlitz Posted January 23, 2017 Author Posted January 23, 2017 @usahockey Through adversity, @BuffaloSabres forward Jack Eichel has his sights set high: http://bit.ly/2jUSXus
plenzmd1 Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 I think the front office would be thrilled to see Vegas take that contract off our hands (I would). His play so far isn't even close to the $5.7M AAV hit for the next 4 years. That's Shattenkirk money. I think a guy like Alzner makes more sense. His point production isn't the greatest, but he's very reliable in his own end. He's a lefty shot and fantastic on the PK (3rd in league). Justin Schultz is having a resurgence in Pitt this year, and while it may be hard to pry him out of that town, definitely should be on the radar. I think the Sabres might even throw in a 2nd rounder if they would take Bogo.
JohnC Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 I think the front office would be thrilled to see Vegas take that contract off our hands (I would). His play so far isn't even close to the $5.7M AAV hit for the next 4 years. That's Shattenkirk money. I think a guy like Alzner makes more sense. His point production isn't the greatest, but he's very reliable in his own end. He's a lefty shot and fantastic on the PK (3rd in league). Justin Schultz is having a resurgence in Pitt this year, and while it may be hard to pry him out of that town, definitely should be on the radar. Your point underscores the fact that good defensemen who don't rise to the level of elite can be added to the roster to make it a sound unit. What I noticed is that when Bogo is paired with a good partner it raises his game. So I'm not giving up on him. Or another way at looking at it is that there isn't going to be much of a market for the pricey player. If the Sabres get lucky with Kulikov and he returns to health and miraculously levels out his erratic game that is another block to build with. One of my primary points in these repetitive posts of mine (I apologize for the irritation) is that there isn't a need to give up a player such as Kane to reconstitute our blue line unit. With a little patience and cap clearing the unit that is currently plaguing this team can be reconstituted to being a capable unit.
inkman Posted January 24, 2017 Posted January 24, 2017 I think the front office would be thrilled to see Vegas take that contract off our hands (I would). His play so far isn't even close to the $5.7M AAV hit for the next 4 years. That's Shattenkirk money. I think a guy like Alzner makes more sense. His point production isn't the greatest, but he's very reliable in his own end. He's a lefty shot and fantastic on the PK (3rd in league). Justin Schultz is having a resurgence in Pitt this year, and while it may be hard to pry him out of that town, definitely should be on the radar. Shattenkirk is going to command $7 mill plus on the open market.
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