HT02 Posted June 13, 2016 Posted June 13, 2016 My gut reaction is similar to FC's somewhere between 18 and 20. But I thought I'd test that by actually looking at who that compares him to. If we start from the premise that Lynch and Wentz both start as the backups (if they don't Bradford is a top tier backup and Sanchez is around the EJ mark for me) then 9 of 32 franchises will start 2016 with a backup that has never started an NFL game. Therefore they all start as unranked for me and we are actually ranking among 23. Of the 23 who remain here, in no particular order, is who I think is definitely better: - Matt Moore (Dolphins) - Josh McCown (Browns) - AJ McCarron (Bengals) - Zach Mettenberger (Chargers) - Colin Kaepernick (49ers) - Drew Stanton (Cardinals) - Derek Anderson (Panthers) - Brian Hoyer (Bears) - Shaun Hill (Vikings) Here, in no particular order are those I think are in the same general area and up for debate: - Bruce Gradowski (Steelers) - Chad Henne (Jaguars) - Colt McCoy (Redskins) - Luke McCown (Saints) - Case Keenum (Rams) - Geno Smith (Jets) - Mike Glennon (Buccs) - I know I will take heat for this but he really is not as good as a lot of people on here think. Here, in no particular order, are the guys I would definitely take EJ before: - Ryan Mallett (Ravens) - Scott Tolzien (Colts) - Matt Cassell (Titans) - Brandon Weeden (Texans) - Matt Schaub (Falcons) - Dan Orlovsky (Lions) I should also clarify in the case of the two Matts in that last list it is just that the arms have totally gone. both looked like they struggled to throw it more than 5 yards when they got on the field last season. At their best both were starters, Schaub a top 15 QB, but at this point they are basically worthless if called upon to play. The conclusion is if you put EJ at the very top of the 2nd group (which I probably wouldn't) then you could argue he is 10th best of the 23 who have started. That is his ceiling in the list for me. If you put him at the bottom of that 2nd list (which again I probably wouldn't) he would be about 17th out of 23. The truth for me is he is probably about 12th or 13th of that 23, but then there are probably a handful of the guys who haven't yet played who are better backup options than him - it is just hard to rank that at this stage. This is a nice summary, as you anticipated I disagree about Glennon I would put him in group . As for the remaining group 2 list I would take Henne, McCown and McCoy ahead of him and I still think that Mallett has arguable a slightly bigger upside. So that would put him about for me. Bottom line I think he is part of a group of QB's who have virtually no chance of winning on a regular basis and certainly an interchangeable cog.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted June 13, 2016 Posted June 13, 2016 Hasselback is retired. He didn't come back to Indy. Regarding EJ after this year... As Captain Quint said to Richard Dreyfus and Roy Scheider in Jaws. You go in the water, shark's in the water, "Farewell and adieu to your fair Spanish ladies, farewell and adieu to your ladies of Spain, because we've received orders to sail back to Boston, and never more will we see you again" Does that make my feelings clear on EJ? Top 5 back up? Back ups are supposed to be at the worst to get you to .500 when you're out. Does anyone remember the Bengals and Jax game? I've said for a couple of years we should have picked up Hasselback as our #2, but he hung the, up now. He was excellent for Indy last year until he started breaking down. He would have won that Jags game for us. Hasselbeck would have won the jags game? The same hasselbeck that led the colts UNDER the jags 51-16. That guy? 18/35 for a whopping 51%, with more accomplished wrs btw, 0 tds lost fumble.. 3 sacks. Yeah the 74.9 passer rating looks like a lock to get the W, given its within range of EJs 75.3 passer rating. Hey better is better no matter what the numbers say.
Saxum Posted June 13, 2016 Posted June 13, 2016 Ranking EJ Manuel when he should have been released a long time ago is pointless! The longer he stays on this team the more of a reminder the wasted pick remains. Can we PLEASE take out the garbage already? We'll mark you down as 4th quartile. You are putting BmoreBills in trash in 4th quartile? I am confused. Not saying I disagree. More or less by definition, .500 is what an average starter goes. Please do confuse ranters with facts especially math facts; fans get irrational when the rug is pulled out from underneath them even if that rug was misplaced. EJ will be a free agent and it is best that he get position elsewhere since he will never be able to get an evaluation in Buffalo other than 1st round bust.
Captain Hindsight Posted June 13, 2016 Posted June 13, 2016 Backups I would take over EJ in no particular order AJ McCarron Landry Jones Colt McCoy Daniel/Wentz Drew Stanton Derek Anderson Luke McCown Garrappolo So he is (In my estimate) a top ten backup. He is still young and has great talent, although he is inconsistent.
Beerball Posted June 13, 2016 Author Posted June 13, 2016 Sorry, very busy today. We'll let this ride another day.
GunnerBill Posted June 13, 2016 Posted June 13, 2016 This is a nice summary, as you anticipated I disagree about Glennon I would put him in group. I will stick to my guns on Glennon. I think eventually he will get a shot to start again somewhere and I will be proved right, but I accept at least on this board I am in the minority. As for the remaining group 2 list I would take Henne, McCown and McCoy ahead of him and I still think that Mallett has arguable a slightly bigger upside. I am not sure I think Mallett has a bigger upside... I think it is about the same to tell the truth not unlike EJ he has a decent arm and some physical tools but is wildly inaccurate and can't avoid the killer mistake. What put him in the third group rather than the second is lack of professionalism and attitude. I am not signing the guy who the first time he was benched "sleeps" through his alarm and the second time fails to show up for the plane.
machine gun kelly Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 You need to let this go eventually. He is still a good backup, better than the list available right now. Two games don't define a career. Were you good at what you do (whatever you do for llving) without working on your crafts for a while? If Rex and Roman cannot fix him then they will cut him. They have not done that yet. Why are you getting all worked up about it? BH- not worked up at all. I understand it was a sound business decision with a sunk cost for him making the team this year especially due to a tight cap, but no, I do not believe in him at all. You mentioned people have to develop their craft. I agree. He's had 18 regular season games, 6 pre-season games, and he is not improving even with multiple training camps. It was not two bad games, it was three years of inaccurate play, and to his defense I believe the previous coaching staff managed him poorly. I still though watched him throughout his FSU career, and he was making the same mistakes. I see the same player he was 5 years ago. Living in FL, FSU is on every week along with the Gators, and UM. The topic was on EJ, and I offered my opinion. If you like him, great. It is my opinion there is zero chance he is on this team in February. Again, a good business decision as we already paid for him, we can't afford more money into another back up, and he will be off to prove himself somewhere else next off season. As to the personal comments, I don't respond to those posts. There is no point. We don't know each other and a fools errand.
HT02 Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 I will stick to my guns on Glennon. I think eventually he will get a shot to start again somewhere and I will be proved right, but I accept at least on this board I am in the minority. I am not sure I think Mallett has a bigger upside... I think it is about the same to tell the truth not unlike EJ he has a decent arm and some physical tools but is wildly inaccurate and can't avoid the killer mistake. What put him in the third group rather than the second is lack of professionalism and attitude. I am not signing the guy who the first time he was benched "sleeps" through his alarm and the second time fails to show up for the plane. I get both of your points, on Glennon (and other back-up) the experience has typically been that there is a reason they remain back-ups. I based my opinion on what I've seen of him when he has played (which is an admittedly small sample) but I liked some of what I've seen. I've seen more than enough of EJ to know he will NEVER be even a reliable back-up in this league. I think the same applies to Mallett, he is a stupid meat-head at times but in my assessment there is still a glimmer of hope with EJ there is none. Now if fairness I think there is no question that EJ is a much more likable guy than Mallett I just don't think he has the leadership or instincts to be a leader.
qwksilver Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 Thanks BeerBall! I was 1/2 joking as there hadn't been an EJ thread in a while. Likeable guy, decent backup. There are about 10-12 better backups, but many aren't and won't be available.
Hanoverbills Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 Nah. We took the lead with a pick six. Defense was the only reason we stayed in it. EJ doesn't have to throw 40+ times if he doesn't give up 21 points on his own. your right defense scored the go ahead TD but also gave up the last score of the game. And the runningback that fumble at the one yard line. That would've gave us a two TD lead. EJ did have a bad first half , but he didn't let it get him down. He played better the second half. I remember the NE game when a QB played bad, but brought us back to almost to beat NE if he only didn't throw an interception at the end of game. First year starting so thats OK.
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 I get both of your points, on Glennon (and other back-up) the experience has typically been that there is a reason they remain back-ups. I based my opinion on what I've seen of him when he has played (which is an admittedly small sample) but I liked some of what I've seen. I've seen more than enough of EJ to know he will NEVER be even a reliable back-up in this league. I think the same applies to Mallett, he is a stupid meat-head at times but in my assessment there is still a glimmer of hope with EJ there is none. Now if fairness I think there is no question that EJ is a much more likable guy than Mallett I just don't think he has the leadership or instincts to be a leader. Yeah, Mallett with his 66.2 passer rating, career 7 tds to 9 ints, and being a giant idiot is far superior to EJ. My gut reaction is similar to FC's somewhere between 18 and 20. But I thought I'd test that by actually looking at who that compares him to. If we start from the premise that Lynch and Wentz both start as the backups (if they don't Bradford is a top tier backup and Sanchez is around the EJ mark for me) then 9 of 32 franchises will start 2016 with a backup that has never started an NFL game. Therefore they all start as unranked for me and we are actually ranking among 23. Of the 23 who remain here, in no particular order, is who I think is definitely better: - Matt Moore (Dolphins) - Josh McCown (Browns) - AJ McCarron (Bengals) - Zach Mettenberger (Chargers) - Colin Kaepernick (49ers) - Drew Stanton (Cardinals) - Derek Anderson (Panthers) - Brian Hoyer (Bears) - Shaun Hill (Vikings) Here, in no particular order are those I think are in the same general area and up for debate: - Bruce Gradowski (Steelers) - Chad Henne (Jaguars) - Colt McCoy (Redskins) - Luke McCown (Saints) - Case Keenum (Rams) - Geno Smith (Jets) - Mike Glennon (Buccs) - I know I will take heat for this but he really is not as good as a lot of people on here think. Here, in no particular order, are the guys I would definitely take EJ before: - Ryan Mallett (Ravens) - Scott Tolzien (Colts) - Matt Cassell (Titans) - Brandon Weeden (Texans) - Matt Schaub (Falcons) - Dan Orlovsky (Lions) I should also clarify in the case of the two Matts in that last list it is just that the arms have totally gone. both looked like they struggled to throw it more than 5 yards when they got on the field last season. At their best both were starters, Schaub a top 15 QB, but at this point they are basically worthless if called upon to play. The conclusion is if you put EJ at the very top of the 2nd group (which I probably wouldn't) then you could argue he is 10th best of the 23 who have started. That is his ceiling in the list for me. If you put him at the bottom of that 2nd list (which again I probably wouldn't) he would be about 17th out of 23. The truth for me is he is probably about 12th or 13th of that 23, but then there are probably a handful of the guys who haven't yet played who are better backup options than him - it is just hard to rank that at this stage. I have small issues with your list but overall, I think it is pretty fair. I will say the love for Mettenberger by some on this board absolutely blows my mind. There's no question in my mind EJ is better than him. He wasn't even that great in college and he had a NFL receiving core. But overall, a very fair list. your right defense scored the go ahead TD but also gave up the last score of the game. And the runningback that fumble at the one yard line. That would've gave us a two TD lead. EJ did have a bad first half , but he didn't let it get him down. He played better the second half. I remember the NE game when a QB played bad, but brought us back to almost to beat NE if he only didn't throw an interception at the end of game. First year starting so thats OK. You don't get it. EJ is the only QB who turns the ball over. Tony Romo didn't have a 5 int game against us (oh he did and his team won). Tom Brady hasn't had multiple 4 int games (oh wait). How many 3+ int games has Farve and both Mannings had? It happens. That 5 minute stretch was completely awful. But it's kinda pathetic he gets no credit for bringing us back. How many guys would even have the heart to battle through that 5 minute stretch with top flight superstar receivers like Woods, Hogan, Gragg, and Easley. He is an above average backup QB.
GaryPinC Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 BH- not worked up at all. I understand it was a sound business decision with a sunk cost for him making the team this year especially due to a tight cap, but no, I do not believe in him at all. You mentioned people have to develop their craft. I agree. He's had 18 regular season games, 6 pre-season games, and he is not improving even with multiple training camps. It was not two bad games, it was three years of inaccurate play, and to his defense I believe the previous coaching staff managed him poorly. I still though watched him throughout his FSU career, and he was making the same mistakes. I see the same player he was 5 years ago. Living in FL, FSU is on every week along with the Gators, and UM. The topic was on EJ, and I offered my opinion. If you like him, great. It is my opinion there is zero chance he is on this team in February. Again, a good business decision as we already paid for him, we can't afford more money into another back up, and he will be off to prove himself somewhere else next off season. As to the personal comments, I don't respond to those posts. There is no point. We don't know each other and a fools errand. +1 Great perspective. For me, most of the people here can't see the forest through the trees. Accuracy issues aside, EJ cannot handle the mental aspects and quick decision making necessary to be an NFL quarterback. He's not the first, he won't be the last. He's had long enough and enough game time to show improvement. He hasn't. He has no feel for the game because of it. Let him go somewhere else to try and prove otherwise.
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 +1 Great perspective. For me, most of the people here can't see the forest through the trees. Accuracy issues aside, EJ cannot handle the mental aspects and quick decision making necessary to be an NFL quarterback. He's not the first, he won't be the last. He's had long enough and enough game time to show improvement. He hasn't. He has no feel for the game because of it. Let him go somewhere else to try and prove otherwise. You may be right but you can't argue that his development sucked. I don't think he has ever played more than 4 games consecutive. For a young QB, that is awful. Blake Bortles was worse than EJ as a rookie but the Jags never pulled him or messed with his head. And I think he is overthinks things. He has a great arm but he aims too much (JP had the same problem). Sometimes, you need to just rip it as a QB. But he is our backup QB and will be gone next year. I still blame Marrone for his development. IT was about as awful as you can get.
FireChan Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 You may be right but you can't argue that his development sucked. I don't think he has ever played more than 4 games consecutive. For a young QB, that is awful. Blake Bortles was worse than EJ as a rookie but the Jags never pulled him or messed with his head. And I think he is overthinks things. He has a great arm but he aims too much (JP had the same problem). Sometimes, you need to just rip it as a QB. But he is our backup QB and will be gone next year. I still blame Marrone for his development. IT was about as awful as you can get. You actually can argue that his development was fine. He just sucked. Yeah, Mallett with his 66.2 passer rating, career 7 tds to 9 ints, and being a giant idiot is far superior to EJ. I have small issues with your list but overall, I think it is pretty fair. I will say the love for Mettenberger by some on this board absolutely blows my mind. There's no question in my mind EJ is better than him. He wasn't even that great in college and he had a NFL receiving core. But overall, a very fair list. You don't get it. EJ is the only QB who turns the ball over. Tony Romo didn't have a 5 int game against us (oh he did and his team won). Tom Brady hasn't had multiple 4 int games (oh wait). How many 3+ int games has Farve and both Mannings had? It happens. That 5 minute stretch was completely awful. But it's kinda pathetic he gets no credit for bringing us back. How many guys would even have the heart to battle through that 5 minute stretch with top flight superstar receivers like Woods, Hogan, Gragg, and Easley. He is an above average backup QB. You know what also "happens" for Brady and Romo and Favre? They also "happen" to throw for 400 yards or 4 TD's or complete 30 passes or lead comebacks or game winning drives. The EJster not so much.
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 You actually can argue that his development was fine. He just sucked. You know what also "happens" for Brady and Romo and Favre? They also "happen" to throw for 400 yards or 4 TD's or complete 30 passes or lead comebacks or game winning drives. The EJster not so much. 1) You're right. Most rookie QBs have a guy who's only experience was 2 years as an OC at Syracuse as their rookie year OC and QB coach. Oh wait, the best QB prospect in 20 years, Andrew Luck, had Bruce Arians. EJ had Nate Hackett. Hackett>>> Arians, amirite? 2) He had 2 game winning drives as a rookie in 10 games. In 2 starts last year, he had 2 of the top 5 passing yard games with no Clay and Sammy playing a half.
FireChan Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 1) You're right. Most rookie QBs have a guy who's only experience was 2 years as an OC at Syracuse as their rookie year OC and QB coach. Oh wait, the best QB prospect in 20 years, Andrew Luck, had Bruce Arians. EJ had Nate Hackett. Hackett>>> Arians, amirite? 2) He had 2 game winning drives as a rookie in 10 games. In 2 starts last year, he had 2 of the top 5 passing yard games with no Clay and Sammy playing a half. Andrew Luck was a better QB in every way to EJ with or without coaches. Through his entire career. Luck was better at Stanford. Luck was probably better at high school and pee wee football. Two of the top 5 passing yard games of what? The Bills season? Who cares? Your point was that the "greats" have had bad games, but they also have had just as many if not more incredible games, not just for their team but compared to the rest of the league. EJ has not. EJ has never won a game with his arm. Ever. The strange crusade must end. The dude sucks. He was supposed to "turn it around" with "finally a real OC" and he's just as bad as ever, singlehandedly losing games to bad teams. It's over.
Wayne Cubed Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 That 5 minute stretch was completely awful. But it's kinda pathetic he gets no credit for bringing us back. He doesn't get credit because he didn't "bring us back". He never scored points to put the Bills ahead, the defense did. And he got the ball, with 2:16 left, after Jacksonville retook the lead and made 3 short passes and threw an incomplete pass on 4th down. Game over. So no, it's not pathetic. He literally did not lead the Bills back.
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 Andrew Luck was a better QB in every way to EJ with or without coaches. Through his entire career. Luck was better at Stanford. Luck was probably better at high school and pee wee football. Two of the top 5 passing yard games of what? The Bills season? Who cares? Your point was that the "greats" have had bad games, but they also have had just as many if not more incredible games, not just for their team but compared to the rest of the league. EJ has not. EJ has never won a game with his arm. Ever. The strange crusade must end. The dude sucks. He was supposed to "turn it around" with "finally a real OC" and he's just as bad as ever, singlehandedly losing games to bad teams. It's over. So a better QB prospect got one of the best offensive minds in the NFL as his rookie OC? Manuel got a dude who broken down films and was an OC not a mid major program. Shouldn't the be opposite? Anyways, I'm done with you. Tell Manziel I said hi.
FireChan Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 So a better QB prospect got one of the best offensive minds in the NFL as his rookie OC? Manuel got a dude who broken down films and was an OC not a mid major program. Shouldn't the be opposite? Anyways, I'm done with you. Tell Manziel I said hi. EJ got Roman and still sucked. You thought it would be otherwise. What happened bro? Wasn't it "we'll see what EJ can do with REAL NFL coaches before we say he stinks?" Well, we saw. He still stinks. Bortles has Hackett as his QB coach and he had a much better second year than EJ. Explain that. He didn't have Bruce Arians. Shouldn't he have sucked terribly. All young QB's need some of the best minds in football to succeed, except when they don't, I guess.
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 He doesn't get credit because he didn't "bring us back". He never scored points to put the Bills ahead, the defense did. And he got the ball, with 2:16 left, after Jacksonville retook the lead and made 3 short passes and threw an incomplete pass on 4th down. Game over. So no, it's not pathetic. He literally did not lead the Bills back. Yes, it is pathetic. Again, there was no Watkins or Clay, our top receivers. McCoy fumbled inside the 5. No one mentions that. He threw a td to tie the game. And as good as I think Roman is, that 4th down playcall was awful. He rolled out a right handed qb to the left side. He overcame one of the worst stretches in NFL history to help us tie the game. That took some guts.
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