/dev/null Posted June 25, 2016 Author Share Posted June 25, 2016 Now the butt hurt losers are calling for a revote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 Now the butt hurt losers are calling for a revote And London wants to secede from England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What a Tuel Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 And London wants to secede from England. And join Scotland. They are even using the hashtag #scotlond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted June 26, 2016 Author Share Posted June 26, 2016 And join Scotland. They are even using the hashtag #scotlond. They should use #omitlondon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 I'm old enough to remember when the Democrats were the party of isolationists and populism. It wasn't but just a few years ago when I was discussing/arguing with Lybob, Birdog and Gator about the inevitability of globalization and that no trade deal was the main culprit for jobs being shipped overseas but rather technology and cheap labor abroad with the combination of overzealous demanding unions. I suspect if you ask them about BREXIT they feel conflicted on one hand that their beliefs of a "global order" being weakened seems like a win but on the other they see many of their progressive buddies now admonishing the results as a victory for "xenophobia", intolerance and isolationism. They must truly be confused. Whereas a sizable portion of the GOP are now no longer for free markets or reforming S.S/Medicare but rather this nationalistic brand of populism which is completely devoid of sound reasoning and forethought. It's a visceral reaction to this meandering economy we've had for the middle class and it's much easier to blame immigrants for taking their jobs (which is complete and utter horseshit) and jobs being shipped overseas because of trade deals being brokered by pols. These aren't abstract scapegoats, they are simple to understand and are opinions that are easy to put together. Sort of like when liberals argue many of their points, they don't require deep thinking but rather just playing on the heartstrings of voters that are easy to connect with their policy proposals. More often than not these sort of proposals that are born from these sentiments are misguided and develop through a bubble of misinformation. When pols such as Jeff Sessions are claimed to have a "pulse" of the American people from once reliable free market capitalists then I know things are going awry for the GOP. I have almost as much in common with some lefty's than I do with these righties. This isn't even the "right" that I once knew, it has redefined itself into some hodgepodge of political demagoguery. I know there are plenty of people in the center such as myself that are clamoring for a viable third party, I suppose if there is anything that may come out of this that could be positive is the clear signal that the two party system is need of more competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
....lybob Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 I'm old enough to remember when the Democrats were the party of isolationists and populism. It wasn't but just a few years ago when I was discussing/arguing with Lybob, Birdog and Gator about the inevitability of globalization and that no trade deal was the main culprit for jobs being shipped overseas but rather technology and cheap labor abroad with the combination of overzealous demanding unions. I suspect if you ask them about BREXIT they feel conflicted on one hand that their beliefs of a "global order" being weakened seems like a win but on the other they see many of their progressive buddies now admonishing the results as a victory for "xenophobia", intolerance and isolationism. They must truly be confused. Whereas a sizable portion of the GOP are now no longer for free markets or reforming S.S/Medicare but rather this nationalistic brand of populism which is completely devoid of sound reasoning and forethought. It's a visceral reaction to this meandering economy we've had for the middle class and it's much easier to blame immigrants for taking their jobs (which is complete and utter horseshit) and jobs being shipped overseas because of trade deals being brokered by pols. These aren't abstract scapegoats, they are simple to understand and are opinions that are easy to put together. Sort of like when liberals argue many of their points, they don't require deep thinking but rather just playing on the heartstrings of voters that are easy to connect with their policy proposals. More often than not these sort of proposals that are born from these sentiments are misguided and develop through a bubble of misinformation. When pols such as Jeff Sessions are claimed to have a "pulse" of the American people from once reliable free market capitalists then I know things are going awry for the GOP. I have almost as much in common with some lefty's than I do with these righties. This isn't even the "right" that I once knew, it has redefined itself into some hodgepodge of political demagoguery. I know there are plenty of people in the center such as myself that are clamoring for a viable third party, I suppose if there is anything that may come out of this that could be positive is the clear signal that the two party system is need of more competition. A rough equalization of wages between third world wages and first world wages has always been part of neo-liberal economics but not a part of globalization that has been widely proclaimed to the working class in the first world - usually our trade deals come with propaganda that says yes we will lose some low paying jobs but we will be replacing them with higher paying jobs, sadly these higher paying jobs have never materialized in numbers that can maintain our middle-class - hey Magox many people are doing worse than their parents and they are pissed about it, why do you find that surprising? btw it's not just in America it's in the UK, France, Italy - you'd probably like to tell them "yeah globalization has sucked for you but the alternative is worse" and maybe that is true but the neo-liberal economists have lied to these people for 40 years so good luck getting them to believe you now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TH3 Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 A rough equalization of wages between third world wages and first world wages has always been part of neo-liberal economics but not a part of globalization that has been widely proclaimed to the working class in the first world - usually our trade deals come with propaganda that says yes we will lose some low paying jobs but we will be replacing them with higher paying jobs, sadly these higher paying jobs have never materialized in numbers that can maintain our middle-class - hey Magox many people are doing worse than their parents and they are pissed about it, why do you find that surprising? btw it's not just in America it's in the UK, France, Italy - you'd probably like to tell them "yeah globalization has sucked for you but the alternative is worse" and maybe that is true but the neo-liberal economists have lied to these people for 40 years so good luck getting them to believe you now. I think you are more than a little quck to label the concept of free trade as "neo liberal". This board always so anxious to label and pick sides. Free trade hardly what "liberals" pushed. That being said ...ignoring those displaced by trade policies is the issue here and Pat Buchanon is correct to call out the economists who ignore this. Not everyone is going to go to college and write code....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
....lybob Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 I think you are more than a little quck to label the concept of free trade as "neo liberal". This board always so anxious to label and pick sides. Free trade hardly what "liberals" pushed. That being said ...ignoring those displaced by trade policies is the issue here and Pat Buchanon is correct to call out the economists who ignore this. Not everyone is going to go to college and write code....... neo-liberal economics has nothing to do with American political liberalism "a modern politico-economic theory favouring free trade, privatization, minimal government intervention in business, reduced public expenditure on social services, etc" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 Maybe they can compromise a new agreement to satisfy the leave vote, otherwise other countries might also leave the EU . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 (edited) NYT - Britain Rattles Postwar Order and Its Place as Pillar of Stability DEM POLLSTER: ONLY ELITES CARE... (no surprise) DON’T EXPECT THE LEADERS TO BELIEVE THIS: The Problem with Brexit is the Leaders, not the Voters: Elites have pushed policies that go against the basic sense of identity, security, common sense, and morality of many citizens. What is more significant—and more worrying about the Brexit vote—is that it demonstrates just how deep the gulf has become that separates governing elites and the people they are meant to govern. Whether in Europe or the United States, our ruling elites have pushed policies—political, economic and social—that go beyond what sits well with the basic sense of identity, security, common sense, and morality of many citizens. Failure to control immigration? Amnesty? Social benefits for non-citizens when citizens are suffering? Nation-building wars abroad instead of nation-building at home? Massive debt? Failures to confront terrorism effectively? Businesses moving jobs overseas? Recession in the countryside while the capital prospers? Rapid changes in gender politics? Bizarre contortions of politically correct speech, which shout down what many see as common sense? It has left many in the electorate angry and disenfranchised. And when those in the public who feel this way have objected or resisted, elites have doubled-down, rather than listen and adjust. The rulers of the European Union, the United Kingdom, the United States—take your pick—are so convinced that they know better than the masses, and that they are building a better world, that even in defeat, they are bemoaning how wrongly the masses have voted. And that is the looming danger for the future that the Brexit vote foreshadows: that elites will still not address the concerns of a large proportion of their own citizens. They see us as, at best, livestock to be managed. . Edited June 26, 2016 by B-Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted June 26, 2016 Author Share Posted June 26, 2016 And now the rumour is that Scotland's Parliament will block the exit. Because you know, Government knows what's best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozymandius Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 That sounds like fun, but the reality is whatever you think this alt-right gig is, and for whatever spoils you think you're getting, or going to get, with someone like Trump or something like Brexit, the reality is that the battles are ultimately fought in the middle...not the fringes, and the alt-right will go the way of the tea party and the coffee party and the progressives and the socialists, and in the end the people with the stomach to meet in the middle will continue to stand. I don't take any pleasure admitting that. And it doesn't mean you, or me, or anyone else should give up your basic principles. It just means the effort to pull people in your direction will ultimately die because you don't have any money. And the people who are making money on this right now (Coulter, Hannity, Ingraham, O'Reilly, etc.) will stop once the well dries up and they see the next revenue generator, and you'll be left alone with your Make America Great Again hat in one hand and your pud in the other. Believe...I got scammed once. Now it's your turn. Just watch your wallet. I mean, I guess we'll see what happens. I expect to be crushing birdog and gatorman under my jackboot within a decade. There are probably more members of the alt-right in this country than there are "true conservatives." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 A rough equalization of wages between third world wages and first world wages has always been part of neo-liberal economics but not a part of globalization that has been widely proclaimed to the working class in the first world - usually our trade deals come with propaganda that says yes we will lose some low paying jobs but we will be replacing them with higher paying jobs, sadly these higher paying jobs have never materialized in numbers that can maintain our middle-class - hey Magox many people are doing worse than their parents and they are pissed about it, why do you find that surprising? btw it's not just in America it's in the UK, France, Italy - you'd probably like to tell them "yeah globalization has sucked for you but the alternative is worse" and maybe that is true but the neo-liberal economists have lied to these people for 40 years so good luck getting them to believe you now. My argument is not that things are perfectly fine the way they are but rather that it was an inevitable evolutionary process of global economics. By the way, what was the alternative? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozymandius Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 I think you are more than a little quck to label the concept of free trade as "neo liberal". neo-liberal economics has nothing to do with American political liberalism LOL. this dude baskin has the highest ratio of arrogance to ignorance on this forum. that's saying something. he probably thinks Bernie is an example of neoliberal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 I'm old enough to remember when the Democrats were the party of isolationists and populism. It wasn't but just a few years ago when I was discussing/arguing with Lybob, Birdog and Gator about the inevitability of globalization and that no trade deal was the main culprit for jobs being shipped overseas but rather technology and cheap labor abroad with the combination of overzealous demanding unions. I suspect if you ask them about BREXIT they feel conflicted on one hand that their beliefs of a "global order" being weakened seems like a win but on the other they see many of their progressive buddies now admonishing the results as a victory for "xenophobia", intolerance and isolationism. They must truly be confused. Whereas a sizable portion of the GOP are now no longer for free markets or reforming S.S/Medicare but rather this nationalistic brand of populism which is completely devoid of sound reasoning and forethought. It's a visceral reaction to this meandering economy we've had for the middle class and it's much easier to blame immigrants for taking their jobs (which is complete and utter horseshit) and jobs being shipped overseas because of trade deals being brokered by pols. These aren't abstract scapegoats, they are simple to understand and are opinions that are easy to put together. Sort of like when liberals argue many of their points, they don't require deep thinking but rather just playing on the heartstrings of voters that are easy to connect with their policy proposals. More often than not these sort of proposals that are born from these sentiments are misguided and develop through a bubble of misinformation. When pols such as Jeff Sessions are claimed to have a "pulse" of the American people from once reliable free market capitalists then I know things are going awry for the GOP. I have almost as much in common with some lefty's than I do with these righties. This isn't even the "right" that I once knew, it has redefined itself into some hodgepodge of political demagoguery. I know there are plenty of people in the center such as myself that are clamoring for a viable third party, I suppose if there is anything that may come out of this that could be positive is the clear signal that the two party system is need of more competition. Good points all around. I find the age discrepancy on Brexit interesting. The young voted REMAIN. I'm watching how this uncoils with great interest. You don't switch off a treaty, which makes me wonder if the current MPs will take action or force the electorate to vote them out and let their replacements do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starrymessenger Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 There is an incredible theory that a Brexit won't actually happen even if the public votes for it A really crucial detail about the upcoming EU referendum has gone virtually unmentioned and it is probably the most crucial detail:Parliament doesn't actually have to bring Britain out of the EU if the public votes for it. That is because the result of June 23 referendum on Britain's EU membership is not legally binding. Instead, it is merely advisory, and, in theory, could be totally ignored by UK government. http://www.businessinsider.com/green-eu-referendum-not-legally-binding-brexit-2016-6?r=UK&IR=T As a technical matter that is correct, but its not going to happen. What possibly could happen is a UK general election in the fall, even though the Tories have years to go with their current mandate. The liberal leader has said that the principal platform of his party in the next campaign will be a reversal of Brexit or an application for membership in the EU, depending upon when the election takes place. A general election might give the UK a face saving opportunity for sober second thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
....lybob Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 My argument is not that things are perfectly fine the way they are but rather that it was an inevitable evolutionary process of global economics. By the way, what was the alternative? Make the right of collective bargaining, work place safety, and environmental protection as an important part of trade agreements as protection for intellectual property and in which courts disputes will be settled. not giving tax breaks to off-shoring companies in short make it somewhat less desirable to off-shore - btw maybe if these third-world workers were paid a little better we'd have better global GDP growth and wouldn't have bizarre low to negative interest rates sucking the life out pensioners and adding another layer to a disgruntled group that may soon become an angry unthinking mob that will upend many apple-carts. Some people think FDR brought socialism to America but what he really did was save capitalism, capitalism as practiced today is not working for a large swath of people and either it will get fixed by thoughtful people at the top or it will be changed by angry people from the bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbillievable Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 (edited) Good points all around. I find the age discrepancy on Brexit interesting. The young voted REMAIN. I'm watching how this uncoils with great interest. You don't switch off a treaty, which makes me wonder if the current MPs will take action or force the electorate to vote them out and let their replacements do it. Many young voters are angry that their plans to backpack through Europe and study abroad using their "free" education is in jeopardy. They're worried that the "free" benefits will be cut off, and think it's unfair that the older generation is forcing the real world onto them too soon. It's amazing how many Europeans (of all ages) feel that the young are entitled to live incredibly pampered lives (paid for by tax payers), until they enter the work force themselves. Many are shocked that teenagers in America actually try to work and attend school at the same time. Edited June 26, 2016 by unbillievable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TH3 Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 LOL. this dude baskin has the highest ratio of arrogance to ignorance on this forum. that's saying something.he probably thinks Bernie is an example of neoliberal At least you didnt call me a liberal! This board loves to label...especially when bad outcomes can somehow be tagged "liberal"... Or neo liberal for what its worth. The "NL" policy free trade etc was championed by the conservative right with the afterthought that those displaced would mythically be brought up with trickle down economics. It is now somwhat ironic that - at least here in the US - that the GOP nominee is being championed by displaced GOP voters to rectify their displacement.... will need "liberal" type policies to fix..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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