Is it time for OSHA to get involved?

[GaryPinC]

science has proven neither is cte linked directly to football nor is the impact of what is climate change/global warming/etc.

 

When science is incomplete it cannot be used to derive any information. Only those looking to campaign, crusade and usually seek to get a financial windfall support such gross negligent information.

No. Scientific evidence has been building for years across multiple sports that sustained concussions with subsequent repeated blows to the head may result in long term damage including CTE.

 

Despite WEO's chicken little scenarios, evidence and current standard of care is that the brain is vulnerable to long term damage if subsequent blows to the head occur before the brain has had a chance to recover from the initial concussive injury. Do we yet know susceptability, damage thresholds, etc? No but that will take 10 to 20 years of study.

 

I agree that incomplete science can be problematic but you don't just ignore it, especially when enough solid evidence has been compiled to indicate a real problem. Concussion protocols include carefully crafted questions to assess different cognitive processes looking for deficits. The science on that is pretty solid.

 

My 12 year old daughter had a mild concussion last year falling on the concrete in the cul-de-sac but it took her 2 1/2 months to fully recover back to normal. One of my biggest issues as a coach is parents who want to ignore concussions because that's how it was done when they were kids.

 

Why is it such a sin when research is incomplete to take a pro-active cautious approach?

[Augie]

Football is inherently dangerous. These guys have been playing all their lives, so no one needs to tell them that. They accept the risk when they cash those large checks. There is no longer any hidden risk here. You can't play of your own free will, knowing the risks, then claim to be unfairly damaged. Where is the line drawn? MMA? NASCAR? Soccer? Downhill skiing? Get over it... You knew and chose the money. I respect the guys who walk away early. It's a personal choice.

 

 

Oh, and to say research is behind the times is silly. The average middle schooler knows football is dangerous and can result in long term damage and a compromised future. That's not an out for people who decided to play.

[GaryPinC]

Football is inherently dangerous. These guys have been playing all their lives, so no one needs to tell them that. They accept the risk when they cash those large checks. There is no longer any hidden risk here. You can't play of your own free will, knowing the risks, then claim to be unfairly damaged. Where is the line drawn? MMA? NASCAR? Soccer? Downhill skiing? Get over it... You knew and chose the money. I respect the guys who walk away early. It's a personal choice.

 

 

Oh, and to say research is behind the times is silly. The average middle schooler knows football is dangerous and can result in long term damage and a compromised future. That's not an out for people who decided to play.

The issue at the crux of this is not that sports are dangerous and involve risk. The crux is that repeated brain injuries may be far more damaging than suspected in the past and what do we do about it?

 

If you suffer a broken bone, torn muscle, sprained ankle there are protocols of treatment. In the past almost nothing was done for brain injuries and now our scope of knowledge is changing rapidly.

 

Probably only in the last 10 years or so do players now begin to realize they may become mentally dysfunctional after they leave the sport to the point of suicide.

[Augie]

The issue at the crux of this is not that sports are dangerous and involve risk. The crux is that repeated brain injuries may be far more damaging than suspected in the past and what do we do about it?

 

If you suffer a broken bone, torn muscle, sprained ankle there are protocols of treatment. In the past almost nothing was done for brain injuries and now our scope of knowledge is changing rapidly.

 

Probably only in the last 10 years or so do players now begin to realize they may become mentally dysfunctional after they leave the sport to the point of suicide.

And now we know. If they don't retire yesterday, no right to complain. (Actually, we knew several years ago if paying attention, but I havn't seen any mass exodus.)

 

 

If we've known for 10 years or so and they object, they should have stopped playing then. They keep cashing the checks. I'm not judging, but I'm also not letting them have it both ways.

[GaryPinC]

And now we know. If they don't retire yesterday, no right to complain. (Actually, we knew several years ago if paying attention, but I havn't seen any mass exodus.)

 

 

If we've known for 10 years or so and they object, they should have stopped playing then. They keep cashing the checks. I'm not judging, but I'm also not letting them have it both ways.

I don't argue with that and in fact agree, but the issue is if the players are receiving appropriate medical treatment for their injury? In the past they largely have not.

 

On a personal note, expanded knowledge about the long term issues with concussions have absolutely changed my approach with my kids and sports. And I already knew sports were inherently dangerous!

[3rdand12]

I see your point Gary.

 

The brain injury is significantly more damaging to the overall all quality of life. It affects the whole body and being ( state of mind ).

and yet there is no clear method of rehab. fair amount of open ended questions still in regard to the affect, and the effects.

 

although it is kind of silly to think it could be government regulated , it is worthy of discussion.

 

To Augies point , if the risk is clear and one decides to embark regardless. Well that is a conscious decision.

But for the older folks, our thinking mostly was suck it up get tough and stop crying.

 

The more memorable phrase is " rub some dirt in it ".

Awareness should be nurtured and shared

Edited June 7, 2016 by 3rdand12

[Augie]

I don't argue with that and in fact agree, but the issue is if the players are receiving appropriate medical treatment for their injury? In the past they largely have not.

 

On a personal note, expanded knowledge about the long term issues with concussions have absolutely changed my approach with my kids and sports. And I already knew sports were inherently dangerous!

I completely agree on the treatment issue. I recall the Rams QB (I think?) this year being clearly out of his gord, and continued on. THAT was sinful. But they need to protect themselves too.

 

Our son could have played mid-level CFB but opted to grow up and get on with his life. There were no delusions of NFL ball, and college was paid for. He'd already had broken bones, torn ACL and MCL, etc. (The sounds coming out of the bathroom during Friday night ice baths was priceless!!!) Enjoy your time with kids sports, and be wise. I will say those were some of the best days of my life, even if I didn't completely understand that then.

[GaryPinC]

I see your point Gary.

 

The brain injury is significantly more damaging to the overall all quality of life. It affects the whole body and being ( state of mind ).

and yet there is no clear method of rehab. fair amount of open ended questions still in regard to the affect, and the effects.

 

although it is kind of silly to think it could be government regulated , it is worthy of discussion.

 

To Augies point , if the risk is clear and one decides to embark regardless. Well that is a conscious decision.

But for the older folks, our thinking mostly was suck it up get tough and stop crying.

 

The more memorable phrase is " rub some dirt in it ".

Awareness should be nurtured and shared

Hey thanks for the excellent reframing of the discussion!

 

I completely agree on the treatment issue. I recall the Rams QB (I think?) this year being clearly out of his gord, and continued on. THAT was sinful. But they need to protect themselves too.

 

Our son could have played mid-level CFB but opted to grow up and get on with his life. There were no delusions of NFL ball, and college was paid for. He'd already had broken bones, torn ACL and MCL, etc. (The sounds coming out of the bathroom during Friday night ice baths was priceless!!!) Enjoy your time with kids sports, and be wise. I will say those were some of the best days of my life, even if I didn't completely understand that then.

Nice! Thanks for sharing that, I will definitely enjoy my time! My original point was to boyst for wanting to dismiss what research had been done. Being in science, I understand and at times agree with his perspective but I feel there's enough solid evidence in this instance to warrant caution. Just don't get me started on global warming!

 

My son is 10 and just loves football. I signed him up for tackle football at age 7 cause he wouldn't have been happy otherwise, the kid's a bruiser. All his coaches put him on the offensive and defensive lines because of it. Thing is, he's got hands, a good arm and the moves to make people miss.

 

Never had a concussion, but this fall he's playing touch football. He wants to handle/make plays with the ball and isn't that fond of the punishment his body takes, so let him have a couple years to develop his ball skills, minimize concussion risk, and he can get back to it in middle school.

Edited June 7, 2016 by GaryPinC

[3rdand12]

Hey thanks for the excellent reframing of the discussion!

 

Nice! Thanks for sharing that, I will definitely enjoy my time! My original point was to boyst for wanting to dismiss what research had been done. Being in science, I understand and at times agree with his perspective but I feel there's enough solid evidence in this instance to warrant caution. Just don't get me started on global warming!

 

My son is 10 and just loves football. I signed him up for tackle football at age 7 cause he wouldn't have been happy otherwise, the kid's a bruiser. All his coaches put him on the offensive and defensive lines because of it. Thing is, he's got hands, a good arm and the moves to make people miss.

 

Never had a concussion, but this fall he's playing touch football. He wants to handle/make plays with the ball and isn't that fond of the punishment his body takes, so let him have a couple years to develop his ball skills, minimize concussion risk, and he can get back to it in middle school.

Keep in mind, your Boy is the next in the evolution in a way.

Perhaps he can play smarter, tackle healthier and learn to avoid when and what is necessary . But then to to make the tackle clean or a block stick.

Teach the kids to play smarter. The game is the same . But the player can outsmart the game

[Augie]

Gary, of the many things I learned through our kids in youth sports, I'll say this:

* no need to specialize at an early (or ANY) age. The really talented kids can just play.

* we didn't allow football until high school (sorry, but we never went without a season of something - often in multiple leagues)

* no serious weight lifting until early to mid-high school (younger son came in 5th in FL as a senior in HS, but stunted his growth).

* soccer is a great sport to make you better at every other sport. Every sport is about great feet and balance.

* soccer also carries a high concussion risk - often overlooked.

* don't be an arse and take it too seriously (I learned that the hard way)

[BarleyNY]

No they aren't. The discussion about CTE is now far beyond the NFL and any influence it may have had, and has been for several years now. Any activity by the NFL to hinder research has does nothing to slow the steady release of findings. It's not really like the cigarette companies.

 

Also, maybe you hadn't heard, but the "paying out some cash" is already happening in the form a billion dollar fund set up by the NFL. Did you mean something else perhaps?

 

The discussion about CTE and football is now moving beyond the NFL, but it's been stalled for years by the league. The NFL has been attempting to influence government research as recently as this calendar year. And they're still fighting with their own, heavily biased research. It's awfully similar to the tobacco industry in that regard.

 

And, yes, the NFL did settle some of the suits against them, but not all of them. They'll also have more exposure to further litigation from more recent players if they're found to be misrepresenting risks associated with playing football.

[Augie]

If I know, and you know, there's no excus for anyone who participates next season to have a complaint. Again, they can't have it both ways.

[BaaadThingsMan]

Be provided required safety gear, such as gloves or a harness and lifeline for falls...Helmets and pads could be considered safety gear

[Malazan]

Give the players what they want. 3 concussions and they're done. Let the NFLPA choose the medics who make the determination at the games.

 

We'll see how fast the players take that deal to protect themselves.

 

At the very least, we'd get a show watching them tie themselves into knots to make it sound like some nefarious scheme to harm them.

Edited June 7, 2016 by jeremy2020

[boyst]

No. Scientific evidence has been building for years across multiple sports that sustained concussions with subsequent repeated blows to the head may result in long term damage including CTE.

 

Despite WEO's chicken little scenarios, evidence and current standard of care is that the brain is vulnerable to long term damage if subsequent blows to the head occur before the brain has had a chance to recover from the initial concussive injury. Do we yet know susceptability, damage thresholds, etc? No but that will take 10 to 20 years of study.

 

I agree that incomplete science can be problematic but you don't just ignore it, especially when enough solid evidence has been compiled to indicate a real problem. Concussion protocols include carefully crafted questions to assess different cognitive processes looking for deficits. The science on that is pretty solid.

 

My 12 year old daughter had a mild concussion last year falling on the concrete in the cul-de-sac but it took her 2 1/2 months to fully recover back to normal. One of my biggest issues as a coach is parents who want to ignore concussions because that's how it was done when they were kids.

 

Why is it such a sin when research is incomplete to take a pro-active cautious approach?

it's not. But those looking to trump up the hysteria, especially for profit or attention are just horrible people.

[GaryPinC]

Gary, of the many things I learned through our kids in youth sports, I'll say this:

* no need to specialize at an early (or ANY) age. The really talented kids can just play.

* we didn't allow football until high school (sorry, but we never went without a season of something - often in multiple leagues)

* no serious weight lifting until early to mid-high school (younger son came in 5th in FL as a senior in HS, but stunted his growth).

* soccer is a great sport to make you better at every other sport. Every sport is about great feet and balance.

* soccer also carries a high concussion risk - often overlooked.

* don't be an arse and take it too seriously (I learned that the hard way)

Thanks for the perspective Augie. Sounds like your boys were pretty passionate about their sports, so congrats on that. I definitely don't take it too seriously but I do emphasize the importance of team commitment and trying to develop their passion in at least one sport. It's great practice for adult life. I coach soccer so I got that one covered!

 

Only bad thing about soccer is when I switched to football in high school (TE/DE), I'd do squats with the linemen and bench press with the receivers!

it's not. But those looking to trump up the hysteria, especially for profit or attention are just horrible people.

I'm with ya, just have to fight that urge to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Current concussion research has at least helped my parenting decisions, and I think it'll ultimately make football a safer sport.

[Saxum]

They'll also have more exposure to further litigation from more recent players if they're found to be misrepresenting risks associated with playing football.

 

It does not matter WHAT they do, the sharks smell blood in the water and will sue, sue. get money and continue suing.

[Mr. WEO]

No. Scientific evidence has been building for years across multiple sports that sustained concussions with subsequent repeated blows to the head may result in long term damage including CTE.

 

Despite WEO's chicken little scenarios, evidence and current standard of care is that the brain is vulnerable to long term damage if subsequent blows to the head occur before the brain has had a chance to recover from the initial concussive injury. Do we yet know susceptability, damage thresholds, etc? No but that will take 10 to 20 years of study.

 

I agree that incomplete science can be problematic but you don't just ignore it, especially when enough solid evidence has been compiled to indicate a real problem. Concussion protocols include carefully crafted questions to assess different cognitive processes looking for deficits. The science on that is pretty solid.

 

My 12 year old daughter had a mild concussion last year falling on the concrete in the cul-de-sac but it took her 2 1/2 months to fully recover back to normal. One of my biggest issues as a coach is parents who want to ignore concussions because that's how it was done when they were kids.

 

Why is it such a sin when research is incomplete to take a pro-active cautious approach?

 

Chicken little scenarios? You need to look up the definition of that phrase.

 

The issue at the crux of this is not that sports are dangerous and involve risk. The crux is that repeated brain injuries may be far more damaging than suspected in the past and what do we do about it?

 

If you suffer a broken bone, torn muscle, sprained ankle there are protocols of treatment. In the past almost nothing was done for brain injuries and now our scope of knowledge is changing rapidly.

 

Probably only in the last 10 years or so do players now begin to realize they may become mentally dysfunctional after they leave the sport to the point of suicide.

 

 

I don't argue with that and in fact agree, but the issue is if the players are receiving appropriate medical treatment for their injury? In the past they largely have not.

 

On a personal note, expanded knowledge about the long term issues with concussions have absolutely changed my approach with my kids and sports. And I already knew sports were inherently dangerous!

 

No one knows the appropriate treatment for a concussion. No on knows how long to wait to return to sport--or if ever. Until it is known, this is the system in place. And the science, based on expert comment, suggests that it is not the number of known or suspected concussion--or perhaps not even concussions at all-that lead to CTE.

 

SO you are left with warnings and disclaimers. And adults decide whether they continue to play football. The NFL cannot change or influence that at this point. OSHA certainly can do nothing to improve the safety of the game. The risks is not avoidable in the NFL workplace, as they are in other workplaces.

[GaryPinC]

 

 

Any CTE researcher will concede that it is most likely that any NFL player who suffers from CTE arrived at rookie training camp already with the disease. Why is the NCAA getting a free ride on this issue?

 

No they would most likely not, chicken little. They really don't know, and is the prevalence of CTE in ex-college football players the same as the NFL?

 

 

Most experts seem to agree it's not the number of concussions, but the innumerable hits that jar the brain and cause CTE. There is no protocol the NFL (or any other entity) can or could have enforced to prevent CTE. The NFL receives these guys as they are--already damaged.

No chicken little, they do not seem to agree on this at this time, most researchers would probably tell you they don't know for sure what causes it, current thinking and standard of care leans toward "repetitive injury superimposed on unresolved injury" ie, not allowing an injured brain to fully recover.

 

Most experts would probably agree that enough significant hits to the head in a short time would cause some mild form of post-concussion syndrome even if classic concussion behavioral/cognitive effects were not observed

 

 

No one knows the appropriate treatment for a concussion. No on knows how long to wait to return to sport--or if ever. Until it is known, this is the system in place. And the science, based on expert comment, suggests that it is not the number of known or suspected concussion--or perhaps not even concussions at all-that lead to CTE.

That's debatable. There are protocols based on sound science, questionnaires and tasks that expose cognitive deficits post-injury and measurable time limits when those deficits have returned back to normal.

 

Keep in mind a couple distinctions that you do not seem to be recognizing:

 

CTE: Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy (CTE) is a progressive degenerative disease of the brain found in athletes, military veterans, and others with a history of repetitive brain trauma. Brain trauma can cause a build-up of an abnormal type of a protein called tau, which slowly kills brain cells. Once started, these changes in the brain appear to continue to progress even after exposure to brain trauma has ended.

 

Post-concussion syndrome, also known as postconcussive syndrome or PCS, is a set of symptoms that may continue for weeks, months, or a year or more after a concussion – a minor form of traumatic brain injury (TBI).

 

There is a big difference between CTE and Post-concussion syndrome that you do not appear to be appreciating. There is no diagnostic for CTE so most of the studies are using accelerometers to study PCS.

 

Keep in mind a couple things: enough subconcussive hits do affect the brain and some areas of cognition. What that means wrt to CTE is unknown.

 

Check out this website and 5:13 slide in the video of Dr. Alice McKee from BU.

 

http://concussionfoundation.org/learning-center/what-is-cte

 

Also interesting is that 250 brains have been donated for study by NFL and military personnel, 150 have tested positive for CTE. This is a highly biased sampling of brains, I actually would have expected the number of positives to be higher.

 

Research is currently mostly studying post-concussion syndrome and repetitive (subconcussive) brain trauma. There is still a huge leap to be made to CTE. Considering CTE's lack of symptomatic prevalence in the athlete's population as a whole (ie high school and college ex-atheletes), there is a ton of work left to be done.

Edited June 9, 2016 by GaryPinC