Ryan's Defense: DL-men in Coverage

[Cover 1]

I think I had trouble with most of them. Like I said the youtube video on the secondary article was great (don't remember if it was three for every article) if that's not too much of a work around. And the GIFs could just be me. Either way you earned my loyalty (and a lot of other posters it sounds like). Keep up the great work.

Sorry to hear that, but yeah sometimes depending on the amount of GIFS in one article it can slow down ur device. That is why I have done more video summaries. They take a little extra time but the feedback has been tremendous.

[Ronin]

Rex Ryan always threw DL into coverage when he was with the Jets. If a DE or NT backs into coverage and you blitz off the edge mentally it throws QB's off as there are bodies where there shouldn't be. Personally I don't like seeing it often in a defense, but as a wrinkle thrown in now and again it seems to be effective.

 

Unfortunately Ryan does it more than "now and again."

 

Could also be why his Ds in NY were below average.

[Cover 1]

 

Unfortunately Ryan does it more than "now and again."

 

Could also be why his Ds in NY were below average.

If u look at the advanced stats he doesn't drop DL in coverage any more than the other teams in the league do...Look at his stats in this article compared to some really big names....http://www.cover1.net/2015/12/20151221lackofproduction/ and our defense as a whole......http://www.cover1.net/2016/02/20161212015-bills-defensive-study-defensive-line/

Edited June 7, 2016 by TurnerE

[C.Biscuit97]

All teams do this. But here's the point. Rex needed to make our defense much more complicated than it needed to be. You shouldn't need to trick teams when you have the best defensive line in the NFL. Schwartz's system was very simple because he realized his talent could win.

 

Maybe Rex wasn't use to having elite defensive talent. But a dude off the street could have coached that defense last year and I'm not sure how much of a drop there would be.

[Ronin]

 

Team (ppg ranking)

 

Patriots 1x (3rd) (I said beside the Pats, a divisional team that Ryan has a knack for occasionally doing well against)

Giants (6th) (24 points? I guess we disagree on keeping us in games. That's greater than the league average)

Chiefs (9th) (edit: I could be swayed on this one) (30 points? D allowed over 400 yards. Be swayed. : D)

Jets 2x (11th) (I was looking at losses, but yes, then again, it was Rex's old team, he should have easily been able to do that. D allowed over 300 yards in one game too)

Eagles (13th) (The Eagles were not good offensively and had no star power on offense, everyone underachieved over there, D allowed 348 yards)

Jaguars (14th - despite Manuel's 20 point donation) (Fair enough, forgot about that one and the D scores, ... on both sides)

 

In comparison the defense failed to hold the following top 15 offenses in 2015 down enough for our offense to compete:

 

Patriots 1x (3rd)

Bengals (7th)

Redskins (10th)

 

When I said good offenses I meant top-10 minimum. Average and below are not good, they're average and bad.

[C.Biscuit97]

 

this .

 

It was Mario that was a b!tch about it, the rest of the D struggled because of last second substitutions and play calls which caught them with their pants down.

I would have had Mario run the defense over Rex last year.

[Ronin]

If u look at the advanced stats he doesn't drop DL in coverage any more than the other teams in the league do...Look at his stats in this article compared to some really big names....http://www.cover1.net/2015/12/20151221lackofproduction/ and our defense as a whole......http://www.cover1.net/2016/02/20161212015-bills-defensive-study-defensive-line/

 

Once again, you've missed the point entirely.

 

To start, he was higher than in previous years, but again, the ENTIRE point is that this was a hybrid of Schwartz & Ryan's schemes. This DID NOT come from Schwartz.

 

Since we're leaning even more Ryan this year, you can expect those numbers to go up. Hence, they will be notably greater than average easily and depending upon who you read already are.

 

Either way, stick to point, don't change the argument/discussion.

[thebandit27]

 

Once again, you've missed the point entirely.

 

To start, he was higher than in previous years, but again, the ENTIRE point is that this was a hybrid of Schwartz & Ryan's schemes. This DID NOT come from Schwartz.

 

Since we're leaning even more Ryan this year, you can expect those numbers to go up. Hence, they will be notably greater than average easily and depending upon who you read already are.

 

Either way, stick to point, don't change the argument/discussion.

Actually, he's right on point, and he provided the relevant data right there in the 2nd linked article.

 

The problem is that you either (a) didn't read the piece he linked, or (b) are refusing to acknowledge that the coverage drop numbers between his 2014 Jets defense and his 2015 Bills defense are almost identical.

 

Part of establishing a credible opinion is actually considering the opposing viewpoints.

[K-9]

Actually, he's right on point, and he provided the relevant data right there in the 2nd linked article.

The problem is that you either (a) didn't read the piece he linked, or (b) are refusing to acknowledge that the coverage drop numbers between his 2014 Jets defense and his 2015 Bills defense are almost identical.

Part of establishing a credible opinion is actually considering the opposing viewpoints.

Another aspect of establishing credibility is to understand that OLBs are required to play pass defense on a frequent basis. TG keeps insisting on lumping Mario and Hughes in with his numbers when he cites RR's use of dropping DLmen into coverage.

 

If he wants to argue that RR shouldn't have made MW and Hughes OLBs in the first place, fine, that is understandable.

 

But it is an entirely different argument.

 

To criticize a coach for using OLBs in pass coverage shows a lack of insight into the game.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[C.Biscuit97]

Another aspect of establishing credibility is to understand that OLBs are required to play pass defense on a frequent basis. TG keeps insisting on lumping Mario and Hughes in with his numbers when he cites RR's use of dropping DLmen into coverage.

 

If he wants to argue that RR shouldn't have made MW and Hughes OLBs in the first place, fine, that is understandable.

 

But it is an entirely different argument.

 

To criticize a coach for using OLBs in pass coverage shows a lack of insight into the game.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Well said. My problem with Rex is he didn't play to the strengths of his team. Hughes and Mario are edge rushers who are at their best on the line and not in space. I am so sick of coaches thinking their scheme is more important than adjusting to the roster they have. Manny Lawson did well last year because he is more of an OLB that is better in space. Given guys like Dareus and Mario's comments, you can argue that some of the defensive players were set up to fail right from the start in the new system.

[Cover 1]

Well said. My problem with Rex is he didn't play to the strengths of his team. Hughes and Mario are edge rushers who are at their best on the line and not in space. I am so sick of coaches thinking their scheme is more important than adjusting to the roster they have. Manny Lawson did well last year because he is more of an OLB that is better in space. Given guys like Dareus and Mario's comments, you can argue that some of the defensive players were set up to fail right from the start in the new system.

Def some truth to that, I am in the camp that does believe that Rex tried creating a super defense that was too complicated. The players were shell shocked and didnt pick up on it and at times rebelled. But in the end the players and coaches have to do a better job on that side of the ball, they get paid millions to execute...

Edited June 7, 2016 by TurnerE

[C.Biscuit97]

Def some truth to that, I am in the camp that does believe that Rex tried creating a super defense that was too complicated. The players were shell shocked and didnt pick up on it and at times rebelled. But in the end the players and coaches have to do a better job on that side of the ball, they get paid millions to execute...

That's far. I'm a fan of coaches that adjust to their teams. I hate the Pats* but they always do that. I hate complicating things. When I played football, the worst thing you could do is make a player think to much and not just react. It takes away aggressiveness and makes you slower in reaction.

[Big Turk]

 

That is an excellent article, it provides greater detail than any I've seen, but it also supports my point.

 

Again, can we see the defensive linemen dropping into coverage more this year given that they didn't do so much at all in 2014 under Schwartz.

 

Some people have commented on the LBs but they were not included in the original thesis. LBs can be expected to be in coverage as much as in run D or thereabouts.

 

Either way, when your sack totals, and therefore pressure on the QB given that sacks are merely a singular measure of that, although at least to a large extent a proportional one, diminish by over 60%, it's a very difficult argument to suggest that dropping linemen into coverage was effective. According to that linked article, it wasn't effective. We merely lost pass pressure and gave up more yards per play passing when the DL-men were in coverage than when they were not.

 

Like many others commenting with criticism, try reading the original post, it was limited to DL-men, not LBs who are also pass-rushers, into coverage. Only DL-men including DTs, not just DEs.

 

Either way, the aforementioned link does a nice job of breaking down the ineffectiveness of doing so.

 

And BTW, from that piece;

 

 

And once again, overlooked by several of the critical intellectual giants otherwise contributing absolutely nothing to the conversation, again, is the notion that if this was a hybrid, then we can expect more, theorhetically anyway, of Kyle, Dareus, and whoever the DEs are dropping into coverage even more, again, theorhetically at somewhere in the ballpark of twice the rate.

 

Doesn't seem to make much sense given the lack of production on D otherwise, clearly a result of the difference in Ryan's philosophy with that of Schwartz. I see further regression in the play of the D as a result, not an improvement as the Ryan Bros. are promising.

 

As well, I see very little wisdom in dropping your best pass rushers into coverage on key passing plays. All you do is give the opposing QB more time, generally speaking.

 

You saw a regression because players weren't committed to running the system properly

[C.Biscuit97]

 

You saw a regression because players weren't committed to running the system properly

Come on. You saw a regression because he forced a system onto the team. Going from leading the league in sacks (54) to 2nd last (21) in one year is terrible.

[John from Riverside]

Come on. You saw a regression because he forced a system onto the team. Going from leading the league in sacks (54) to 2nd last (21) in one year is terrible.

Im not saying that you are wrong....however I think that the answer is probably that you are both right.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Is that Von Miller dropping into coverage and intercepting Brady I see...

 

 

EDIT: In case you haven't notice, lots of teams and lots of DL do this. Even star players.

Puh-lease... its delusional to consider anything Denver did in any way applicable to Buffalo's dismal defensive performance. Dropping Dareus and Mario into zone pass defense is just the icing on the cake. The coach just simply couldn't match a scheme to the players and they paid for it by extension of the playoff rut. When your best pass penetrators/disrupters are eating space or sitting in a zone so you can "confuse" the offense by rushing Corey Graham ... That's a fail

 

Btw- Von is OLB, Mario is a DE

[K-9]

Puh-lease... its delusional to consider anything Denver did in any way applicable to Buffalo's dismal defensive performance. Dropping Dareus and Mario into zone pass defense is just the icing on the cake. The coach just simply couldn't match a scheme to the players and they paid for it by extension of the playoff rut. When your best pass penetrators/disrupters are eating space or sitting in a zone so you can "confuse" the offense by rushing Corey Graham ... That's a fail

 

Btw- Von is OLB, Mario is a DE

Mario was an OLB in Ryan's scheme. Make perfect sense he would have to play more pass coverage. And he has the athletic chops to do it, too. That said, any comparison to Von Miller is ludicrous.

 

As I've said, if you want to get on RR for using Mario as an OLB in the first place, that makes a ton of sense. But asking an OLB to drop into coverage is normal.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Wayne Cubed]

Puh-lease... its delusional to consider anything Denver did in any way applicable to Buffalo's dismal defensive performance. Dropping Dareus and Mario into zone pass defense is just the icing on the cake. The coach just simply couldn't match a scheme to the players and they paid for it by extension of the playoff rut. When your best pass penetrators/disrupters are eating space or sitting in a zone so you can "confuse" the offense by rushing Corey Graham ... That's a fail

 

Btw- Von is OLB, Mario is a DE

That's great, I'm well aware that Von Miller is an OLB. He's also Denvers best pass rusher. The discussion is about dropping good pass rushers, whether it be OLB, DE or DT into coverage and its effectiveness on passing downs.

 

"When your best passer rushers are eating space.." You mean like Miller was doing on that play?

 

If you prefer I can post a GIF of Kony Ealy, a massive DE, dropping into coverage and intercepting Peyton in the Super Bowl?

 

My point. Even star players and teams best pass rushers drop into zone coverage.

 

The discussion has changed now anyways.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Wayne Cubed

[John from Riverside]

Agreed.

 

I get on Rex for his utilization of the front four.

Completely fair in my opinion

[Bill from NYC]

Mario was an OLB in Ryan's scheme. Make perfect sense he would have to play more pass coverage. And he has the athletic chops to do it, too. That said, any comparison to Von Miller is ludicrous.

 

As I've said, if you want to get on RR for using Mario as an OLB in the first place, that makes a ton of sense. But asking an OLB to drop into coverage is normal.

 

GO BILLS!!!

I totally agree with this post. Mario is a huge defensive end, and is suited to rush quarterbacks. This is why few active players have as many sacks as he does. Marcel probably weighs 360 or more. He is not a pass defender.

 

Rex took a capable, talented defense and destroyed it.