Ryan's Defense: DL-men in Coverage

[Augie]

It is called a zone blitz.

And we all love a zone blitz that works.

[vincec]

I never thought dropping the defensive line into coverage was abused by Rex.

He just clearly had no idea how to utilize a front four like the one given to him last season.... It was odd.

That's because he's a 3-4 guy and his schemes are designed to maximize the effectiveness of his LBs, not his DL.

[Augie]

That's because he's a 3-4 guy and his schemes are designed to maximize the effectiveness of his LBs, not his DL.

That speaks volumes, and it's not very flattering.

[3rdand12]

 

One of my favorite articles of this offseason.

He is a darned good Kid, our Erik. Great takes by him.

Finish him!!

 

Sweep the leg and then hit him with the heat maps while he's down. I know you've got them prepared and ready to go. You have my guarantee that I won't interfere with this effort. Hell, I'll even go so far as to distract FireChan in the shoutbox while you administer the coup de grace. God speed.

lol

 

Hmmm...I hadn't considered heat mapping this issue...

 

[cracks knuckles]

and then continued chuckling.

 

{ i can only read this stuff at work )

nicely done fellas

[3rdand12]

That speaks volumes, and it's not very flattering.

to counter this.

 

We all have spoken to the defining ability as an incoming Head Coach, to be getting the most from your players. Coaching to what they do best.

Maybe i am in the minority here !! ha ha . But if you have a set of Coaches that have been working together for year and years using the same or similar terminology and concepts. A clear vision of what the method is. and these guys spend all year talking about the team and the game and the season upcoming.

 

Players come and go . rosters change. And players are invested in their role , not the overall School of thought.

 

I might seem vague.

So simply said, I prefer Coaches get their players and teach their methods and scheme.

 

I expect this season the Coaches and the players will be on the same page.

 

I Expect it !

I do not care if the Dareus drops, slides out, or jumps up and down in a throwing lane, as long as it works.

 

This is it. Ryan might be a nut bucket, but he knows football and he knows his competition. Has the game passed him by ?

Let the dice roll

[Ronin]

 

If your point was that Rex dropped D-Lineman into coverage way too often and that's a problem, the cover1 link does nothing to support that.

 

Unless you think 3% of Mario's snaps and and 0.6% of Marcel's are "too many."

 

Well, OK, you put it into percentages without any frame of reference, and I'll look at it as the following:

 

As DEs, Hughes & Mario went from 25 times to 86 times collectively. Dareus & Williams, neither of which should ever drop into coverage IMO, went from 0 and 9, 9 total, for to 5 and 28, 33 total, for an overall total of 34 to 119, or a 350% increase.

 

Again, assuming that this was a hybrid, as Ryan stated (or was he lying?), then clearly we should be able to expect more of Ryan's and less of Schwartz's (stay home) D, which is entirely logical. Let's assume that it was an exact 50/50 hybrid, then it seems to me that we can see those instances double, also entirely logical.

 

So, instead of 86 times for whomever the DEs are, then an additional 61 times for the starting DEs, for 147 total there, and a doubling of the number of times a 300-and-some lb. DT drops into coverage, again, only for Dareus & Kyle, forgetting the depth DTs and DEs as well, to 57, an additional 24 again, for 204 total.

 

I don't care what the percentage is, that's 13 times/game from just the DL. If that happens then everyone has excellent reason to agree with Mario this season. That figure doesn't even include the depth players, so it only goes up from there. Anyone that thinks that's normal by NFL standards, much less logical, well, perhaps Ryan is their coach after all.

 

Kyle Williams, or Dareus for that matter, has absolutely no business dropping into coverage on a regular basis. Schwartz didn't do it and the results were pronounced. Seems like people are actually defending Ryan's nonsense.

 

Looked at another way, when our D was almost tops, Dareus and Kyle dropped back only once every other game, about right, not 4 times/game which is what this season projects to on a perfect 50/50 hybrid scenario.

 

Mario and Hughes can be debated, but Williams and Dareus cannot. Neither of those players are built to drop into coverage on any regular basis.

 

It's stunning how opinions without any substantiation shape peoples thoughts.

[Augie]

I still prefer a coach who is not a one trick pony and can make the most out of the talent he has to work with. Times and schemes change. I hope Rex can keep up. He was the weak link last year as a HC (and allowing a lousy ST coach to remain) and with his defense. I'm not writing off this season, just saying hes' got some work to do and I sincerely hope he shows great improvements in all areas.

[Beef Jerky]

Just FYI Schwartz also dropped DL into coverage though it was less.

[Ronin]

You can blame Rex for the drop in sacks and overall defensive ranking. A coach has to be accountable for his results.

 

But dropping defensive linemen into coverage is not new, or unique, as many have observed. Maybe my memory is flawed, but I think I recall see Bruce Smith in coverage a couple times.

 

And Rex dropped linemen into coverage the year he lead the NFL in defense with the Jets. Dropping linemen is not new nor unique nor necessarily a recipe for failure.

 

I guess it might be interesting to measure how often Rex's defenses do it versus other defenses. Personally, I don't care very much about that. I just care about the results.

 

Rex proved with Baltimore and in his early years with the Jets that his 'multiple' defensive approach can work in the NFL with the right players. Obviously, he has to continue to evolve his defense to keep up with offensive innovations. Does he have the right players this year? Has he kept up with the offensive changes implemented by our opponents? I don't know. I do know his 'hybrid' approach didn't work last year. Let's see what he can do this year with a pure Ryan D and a roster better suited to his philosophy.

 

Once again, the point seems to have gone unnoticed.

 

Try that argument again using Schwartz's 2014 D as the baseline, then consider what I said about one of the key differences, that not only Mario complained about mind you, Dareus among others weren't happy either, just not as vocal about it.

 

If you're happy with the trend to the 15th ranked D, great, can't help you. You said that you do care about the results, so I assume that you're not satisfied. Given that Ryan's half of the "hybrid" that he said he ran, was clearly responsible for the drop from 4th to 15th in scoring D, my point is clearly the obvious, that as the vestiges of Schwartz's D are removed, do you think that that trend will continue upward from 15th, or trend back to 4th?

 

The answer should be clear, it should continue to trend upward and more in sync with Ryan's Ds over the last five seasons, 20th, 20th, 19th, 24th, and 15th last season. Why would the D improve as Ryan's changes take over entirely, as any last vestiges of Schwartz's 4th ranked D are removed, changes that had this unit plummet from 4th to 15th? There is no reason whatsoever.

 

In other words. there is absolutely no basis to argue that it should trend back down to 4th by removing any elements of the D that allowed it to be 4th, while enhancing the elements of the D that caused it to drop from 4th to 15th.

 

Another very simple data point is how Bowles in NY got the essentially the same D that Ryan had the year before to jump from that 24th back up to 9th, and frankly it wasn't even that talented to be able to be 9th, IMO. Either way, I highly doubt that Bowles/Rogers had their DTs and DEs dropping into coverage well above league averages as Ryan has and apparently will keep doing. If someone shows me that that was the case, then all of a sudden dropping DTs and DEs into coverage has become chic and effective, but then the question becomes why couldn't Ryan be effective with it. First one must prove that Bowles/Rogers did that, and I don't think that's going to be the case.

 

It might make sense to drop a DT or DE to a greater extent into coverage on occasion, but to do it regularly, meaning the frequency with which we do it, thereby taking players out of their skillset wheelhouse and placing them into roles to which they're not suited on a regular basis, makes little sense.

 

Most of the people commenting on this thread offer no contrary data, not actual factual info other than a youtube clip of Von Miller as one example, who's a LB, not even a DL to begin with as my original post addressed thereby ignoring the parameters of the debate altogether, dropping into coverage. That's hardly an argument, it's irrelevant nonsense.

Edited June 3, 2016 by TaskersGhost

[YoloinOhio]

I have always been a huge fan of Rex Ryan's defense. I still am. I don't think he's a perfect HC by any means. Lots of room for improvement there. But I don't think he's a "bad" HC. I actually think there are a ton of below average HCs in the league. But it's too hard to lure the really good college coaches to the NFL and coordinators are a crapshoot IMO.

Edited June 3, 2016 by YoloinOhio

[Ronin]

Just FYI Schwartz also dropped DL into coverage though it was less.

 

LOL

 

Is that a joke?

 

Thanks for restating my entire point. In fact, it was quite a bit less.

 

A. Now, consider, Schwartz had the 4th ranked scoring D, Ryan had the 15th.

 

B. Ryan claims, per the original post, as an excuse as I see it, that he ran a hybrid of Ds last season, his and Schwartz's.

 

C. This season he's going to remove any and all elements of game-planning that had our D performing to 4th ranked scoring standards, and replace it with elements of his own D that had our D operate at the 15th ranked scoring D standard.

 

So, A + B + C = what to you? Worse than 15th scoring D, which is in keeping with Ryan's last five seasons of coaching, or better than 15th in scoring D?

,

To me it's entirely obvious. I guess not so much for others.

 

In short, This D was highly successful in 2014. Elements of how that D was run were partially removed last season and the D was tremendously average. This year, LOL, offered as an excuse was that the methods that held us back last season were the same methods that generated our best D in a decade, and the methods that allowed us to diminish to average will be bolstered and reinforced, and that's going to propel this D back into top status??

 

LMAO

 

Only in Buffalo. Truly.

 

I realize that I'm a poster that people love to hate and go out of their way to hate, but a lot of the counter-commentary in this thread is comical.

Edited June 4, 2016 by TaskersGhost

[Maury Ballstein]

LOL

 

Is that a joke?

 

Thanks for restating my entire point. In fact, it was quite a bit less.

 

A. Now, consider, Schwartz had the 4th ranked scoring D, Ryan had the 15th.

 

B. Ryan claims, per the original post, as an excuse as I see it, that he ran a hybrid of Ds last season, his and Schwartz's.

 

C. This season he's going to remove any and all elements of game-planning that had our D performing to 4th ranked scoring standards, and replace it with elements of his own D that had our D operate at the 15th ranked scoring D standard.

 

So, A + B + C = what to you? Worse than 15th scoring D, which is in keeping with Ryan's last five seasons of coaching, or better than 15th in scoring D?

,

To me it's entirely obvious. I guess not so much for others.

 

In short, This D was highly successful in 2014. Elements of how that D was run were partially removed last season and the D was tremendously average. This year, LOL, offered as an excuse was that the methods that held us back last season were the same methods that generated our best D in a decade, and the methods that allowed us to diminish to average will be bolstered and reinforced, and that's going to propel this D back into top status??

 

LMAO

 

Only in Buffalo. Truly.

 

I realize that I'm a poster that people love to hate and go out of their way to hate, but a lot of the counter-commentary in this thread is comical.

 

You okay bud ? Tense times huh ?

[Nihilarian]

Stating that part of the reason his defense didn't work so well was because he used Schwartz's scheme some of the times last year is nothing but another excuse from the master of excuses.

 

There really is no excuse for a supposed defensive genius to take over a team with one of the best and highest paid pro bowl pass rushing defensive lines in the league and then make them look merely average attempting to run a scheme that doesn't suit what they do best...and that was rush the passer! Then ask his defensive line players to not rush the passer most of the season and thus creating animosity amongst those pro bowl D-line players.

 

Yes, the Bills ran a Schwartz like wide nine scheme at times last year. Yes, the Bills ran multiple looks and fronts going from 3-4 to 4-3. But the one constant that Rex Ryan didn't do last year and something that he was noted for in his past defenses and... that ...was... blitzing... the... QB! In 2015 the Bills ran mostly a run stopping two-gap scheme.

 

Also, the 2015 Buffalo Bills defense was a clusterfluck of problems from the many penalties (the Buffalo Defense gave the NY Giants offense 7 first downs! Yes, that's right 7 first downs!) to the late incoming play calls, late player substitutions. To the wrong play calls at the wrong time (Marcell Dareus was dropped into pass coverage on two of the Chiefs TD passes). When the Bills did decide to call a blitz it was usually ineffective and didn't work well.

 

Last year Rex Ryan only blitzed around 10% or less for most of the games and he ran a scheme that is designed more for stopping the run than it is for getting pressure on the QB. It showed, as the lack of pressure on opposing QB's most of the season was alarming.

 

 

I can only surmise that either Rex Ryan was either just too darn lazy to work a good defensive game plan against some teams. Patriots 1x, Giants, Chiefs, Eagles, Redskins, Bengals or he just didn't care to walk in Jim Schwartz's- Mike Pettine's shadows. The latter meaning that there was a real reason he didn't even attempt to call many blitzes because he didn't feel the need to compete against those two men for the sack title.

 

Now, this year if he comes out guns blazing by calling blitzes on 50% of the opposing QB dropbacks and runs his 3-4 with mostly a one gap scheme then Ryan will look like the old sack master he was supposed to be in the first place. Bills fans and his players will forget that 2015 debacle and start loving his defense again. The Bills defense will start leading the NFL in sacks again and opposing QB's will start hating to play Buffalo again.

 

We can only hope!

[vincec]

Yea. The hire didn't make a lot of sense from a football standpoint considering the personnel. From a business standpoint, absolutely. Thanks Russ.

This concern was discussed by the media and fans at the time. However, the prevailing opinion seemed to be that, as a defensive genius, Rex would adjust to his personnel and they wouldn't miss a beat. Unfortunately, it didn't turn out that way.

[Bill from NYC]

Haha. This so funny. Debating why its good to drop pass rushers in to coverage.

Yeah, and failing to take into account linemen simply standing still, protecting an area. This after claiming the team would be "Bullies."

 

Even more sickening is the abuse the OP has to take from pseudo football intellectuals for having the nerve to have an opinion that differs from their kool aid driven, color coded, boring as all hell drivel.

[BarleyNY]

to counter this.

 

We all have spoken to the defining ability as an incoming Head Coach, to be getting the most from your players. Coaching to what they do best.

Maybe i am in the minority here !! ha ha . But if you have a set of Coaches that have been working together for year and years using the same or similar terminology and concepts. A clear vision of what the method is. and these guys spend all year talking about the team and the game and the season upcoming.

 

Players come and go . rosters change. And players are invested in their role , not the overall School of thought.

 

I might seem vague.

So simply said, I prefer Coaches get their players and teach their methods and scheme.

 

I expect this season the Coaches and the players will be on the same page.

 

I Expect it !

 

I do not care if the Dareus drops, slides out, or jumps up and down in a throwing lane, as long as it works.

 

This is it. Ryan might be a nut bucket, but he knows football and he knows his competition. Has the game passed him by ?

Let the dice roll

These points are exactly correct - and the most relevant. I was excited to see Rex hired because I thought he'd keep the defense rolling. He didn't. Regardless of the reasons, those were the results and they weren't acceptable. He's lost my confidence and its in him to earn it back. He's got a plan to do that, which is a lot better than planning on doing the same thing.

 

The plan is to run "his defense" entirely this year. That's not what I'd like to hear. Visions of a lot of square pegs and round holes immediately pop into my head. What I'd liked to have heard was that he was going to tailor his defense to the talent available. The best coaches are good enough to do that.

 

But it's on him to improve the defense and to chose the path to do so. It's certainly conceivable that Ryan's defense is comprehensive enough to effectively utilize the talent on the roster. But the defense that he chose to run last season was a significant regression from prior seasons under Schwartz. That doesn't make me hopeful, but bringing up the number of zone blitzes and speculating on the number next season is pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things. It's just a tiny piece of the puzzle and it might not stand alone well. The defense's performance showed us that he didn't utilize the talent nearly as well as it had been utilized. He got his Mulligan. The honeymoon is over. His bravado is looking more and more hollow without results to back it up. He's got this season and next - at most - to do what he's told us over and over he can do. I'm definitely in "show me" mode now though.

[H2o]

As long as we aren't dropping a defensive lineman every play what is the big deal? Teams do it to create less of a window on underneath routes and confuse the QB. It probably only happens a handful of times each game.

[gatorbait]

Von Miller's dominating performance as a 3-4 OLB in the super bowl is all the proof you need it works. No matter what you NNNs think it's actually really common, find something else to B word about

[Bill from NYC]

 

 

 

 

Kyle Williams, or Dareus for that matter, has absolutely no business dropping into coverage on a regular basis. Schwartz didn't do it and the results were pronounced. Seems like people are actually defending Ryan's nonsense.

 

It's stunning how opinions without any substantiation shape peoples thoughts.

Didn't you read the previous page? Kyle Williams had an interception in game one of 2014!!!

 

Doesn't this prove that Kyle in coverage is a great idea, or do you want me to switch my screen name to one which originated as a tribute to JP Losman, and break out color coded charts to prove that Rex's defense is great?

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Fans find the dumbest things to complain about.