Are the Bills really in "Win Now" mode?

[PromoTheRobot]

Brandon's BS and selling tickets > winning

It would be so much better if RWS were empty, no?

[Gugny]

It would be so much better if RWS were empty, no?

 

I think the point being made (which is an excellent one) is that the definition of success is much different to ownership than it is to fans.

[thebandit27]

 

 

TPegs didn't spend the money he has for them to be in anything but win-now mode.

 

The two are completely unrelated.

 

He bought the team because he wanted to own the team. Obviously he wants them to win, and I'm 100% certain that he'd like to start winning now.

 

However, I'm also 100% sure that he's not sitting in his office thinking "well, if I knew we'd only be 1 game over 0.500 two years into ownership, I never would've bought this team".

[PromoTheRobot]

 

I think the point being made (which is an excellent one) is that the definition of success is much different to ownership than it is to fans.

I did miss that. Sorry.

[Rico]

 

They've made history. No franchise since 1991 (when playoff rules were changed) has missed the playoffs for more seasons consecutively. Only Cincinnati and Detroit have longer streaks without winning a playoff game.

 

I know...negative nabob.

 

TPegs didn't spend the money he has for them to be in anything but win-now mode.

Yep, 16 and counting. An argument could've been made that they are only 0-1 under Pegs if he would've cleaned house, but the lifers and the failures they hired are still running the team.

[Toledo Bill]

It would be so much better if RWS were empty, no?

Well, winning just might sell tickets..........

[Gugny]

Well, winning just might sell tickets..........

 

Well, they're selling record numbers of season tickets without winning ............

[BillsVet]

The two are completely unrelated.

 

He bought the team because he wanted to own the team. Obviously he wants them to win, and I'm 100% certain that he'd like to start winning now.

 

However, I'm also 100% sure that he's not sitting in his office thinking "well, if I knew we'd only be 1 game over 0.500 two years into ownership, I never would've bought this team".

 

The Pegulas purchased the team because they wanted to and wanted to win. He spent more in guaranteed money last off-season than any other team and has discussed with Polian the concept of a czar overseeing football ops.

 

I think we can agree that these moves illustrate that while he's not as concerned with the bottom line like the first owner, he does have some issues with management.

 

I suspect there's going to be movement in the front office after 2016 if they're not in the playoffs.

[Deranged Rhino]

 

The Pegulas purchased the team because they wanted to and wanted to win. He spent more in guaranteed money last off-season than any other team and has discussed with Polian the concept of a czar overseeing football ops.

 

I think we can agree that these moves illustrate that while he's not as concerned with the bottom line like the first owner, he does have some issues with management.

 

 

I'm not sure you can be sure he "has issues with management". Simply discussing the idea of bringing in a Czar isn't the same thing as having issues with management. The smartest people are always open to new ideas, especially when they're still getting their feet wet as Pegs is in terms of being an NFL owner.

 

Exploring all options isn't the same as being disgruntled with the status quo.

 

 

 

I suspect there's going to be movement in the front office after 2016 if they're not in the playoffs.

 

I wouldn't bet against that. Though, I think it will depend on a lot of factors we simply cannot predict at the moment.

[thebandit27]

 

The Pegulas purchased the team because they wanted to and wanted to win. He spent more in guaranteed money last off-season than any other team and has discussed with Polian the concept of a czar overseeing football ops.

 

I think we can agree that these moves illustrate that while he's not as concerned with the bottom line like the first owner, he does have some issues with management.

 

I suspect there's going to be movement in the front office after 2016 if they're not in the playoffs.

Indeed.

[Gugny]

 

The Pegulas purchased the team because they wanted to and wanted to win. He spent more in guaranteed money last off-season than any other team and has discussed with Polian the concept of a czar overseeing football ops.

 

I think we can agree that these moves illustrate that while he's not as concerned with the bottom line like the first owner, he does have some issues with management.

 

I suspect there's going to be movement in the front office after 2016 if they're not in the playoffs.

 

I don't doubt that there will be movement in the front office if the Bills miss out again.

 

But is that right? Whaley built the team to win (had a lot to do with it, anyway). Then a head coach was brought in whose defensive philosophy didn't jibe with the defense that Whaley built.

 

How, exactly, is that Whaley's fault?

 

Since the Pegulas bought this team they have improved in one area: Excitement.

 

Excitement sells tickets. Excitement sells merchandise. Excitement doesn't win games.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Gugny

[bananathumb]

The Bills win now? What a straight line.

 

The Bills will win when ____________. Enter your own particular absurdity.

[Luxy312]

Threads like these are funny. They didn't used to be funny prior to the signing of the new collective bargaining agreement in 2014, because teams could be in "win now" mode versus rebuilding. In this era, EVERY team in the NFL is in "win now" mode, or whatever you want to call it. Here's my breakdown of why this is a fact and not really even open for discussion. First, this isn't the 1980's. During that time, immediately prior to the expired CBA, there wasn't a cap. Teams could literally spend as little or as much as they wanted to win and boy did teams to this. The Cowboys and the 49ers had the highest payroll of any team in the NFL at that time. They were spending some $30-$40 million more than the lowest spenders in the NFL because they could. Teams that struggled didn't spend. After that first salary cap, that changed a bit. There were less "big spenders" and the level of competition leveled a little bit. BUT, there still was the ability to not spend if a team felt like they couldn't compete. Remember the Bills "cash to cap" nonsense? This was basically saying that they weren't going to spend because they knew they didn't have the team to complete.

Now dial it forward to the agreement in 2014. Two things happened. First, the cap number jumped through the roof because of the definition of what was included in shared revenue. Second, a salary floor was added. Teams basically would be penalized if they don't spend to the salary floor. There's some subtle complexities that I won't get into, but the floor was phased in. Year 1 teams had to spend 85% of the cap. Year 2, that grew to 89%. This year it's 95% and will go up again next year. Small amounts may be carried forward to spend in future years (if you don't spend it), but it's certainly not on the level of being able to tank a year to gain a meaningful advantage. This is unless of course you're assuming that would be taking for a draft that is a complete wild card the next season.

The concept of being "win now" versus something else is dead for the NFL. It's alive and kicking for the NBA, NHL, and most certainly for MLB. While it was a historical truth, it's now just history for the NFL.

[Fadingpain]

Brandon's BS and selling tickets > winning

For much of this franchise's existence under past ownership: yes.

 

Under Pegs? No longer.

The Bills win now? What a straight line.

 

The Bills will win when ____________. Enter your own particular absurdity.

The Bills will win when we have a Jim Kelly-esque level QB again on this roster, and/or Tom Brady has retired.

 

They've only had 2 winning seasons in that time. Both 9-7. Both by coaches that only lasted 2 years and quit.

You nattering nabob of negativity you!

 

[Dopey]

Last season was must win season. This year, not so much. This seems like yr. 1 of a defensive rebuild. Three potential new starters on d(rookies), doesn't sound like win now to me.

[Ronin]

They've made history. No franchise since 1991 (when playoff rules were changed) has missed the playoffs for more seasons consecutively. Only Cincinnati and Detroit have longer streaks without winning a playoff game.

 

I know...negative nabob.

 

TPegs didn't spend the money he has for them to be in anything but win-now mode.

 

We've already passed Cincy and we pass Detroit this season if we fail to make the playoffs. So we'll have the dubious honor of having both the historical longest as well as the longest current playoff drought, and there's not much reason why it will end after this season either.

 

 

Brandon's BS and selling tickets > winning

 

That is correct. As long as there are fannies in the seats the organization as a business is successful. The team can be awful, there are two standards in play here. The losers are the fans that hold winning a championship as a standard. Many here seem to merely be content with "having a team in Buffalo" although they'll tell you differently.

 

 

He bought the team because he wanted to own the team. Obviously he wants them to win, and I'm 100% certain that he'd like to start winning now.

 

IMO he bought the team as a piece of his collection to "renovate" downtown Buffalo ala One Buffalo. Of course he wants to win, but per Toledo Bill's comment above, he'll be just fine as long as the tix get sold even if this streak extends from 16 games to 50.

 

 

 

The Pegulas purchased the team because they wanted to and wanted to win. He spent more in guaranteed money last off-season than any other team and has discussed with Polian the concept of a czar overseeing football ops.

 

I think we can agree that these moves illustrate that while he's not as concerned with the bottom line like the first owner, he does have some issues with management.

 

I suspect there's going to be movement in the front office after 2016 if they're not in the playoffs.

 

Everyone wants to win. Snyder wanted to win when he bought the Redskins and snidely told the world that running and NFL team was just like running any business. He bought the team in '99 and in the 17 seasons since they've made the playoffs 5 times and are 0-5 in playoff games, 0-3 in WC games, 0-2 in Division Games as the division winners.

 

He's been notorious for spending more than any other owner. Look what it's gotten them.

 

Why he purchased the team, what he wants, how much money he spent/spends, whether he wants a 'czar' or not, or whether he's as concerned about the bottom-line as much as Wilson was, really don't matter in terms of the actual product on the field, do they? Seriously, think about that, none of that matters in terms of outcome. Seriously, if it did, then Snyder's Redskins would have had 5 rings on his watch given his talk, the same idiotic trade-ups, and the money they've spent on free-agents.

 

Everyone talks about how he's doing the right things with the Sabres, but they were barely .500 this year. That's good? There's no guarantee of improvement with them either.

 

It's not just spending, it's brains, which brings us to Rico's comment ...

 

 

Yep, 16 and counting. An argument could've been made that they are only 0-1 under Pegs if he would've cleaned house, but the lifers and the failures they hired are still running the team.

 

Right there, THAT says it all! This is the Wilson-II era, nothing more right now. Pegula talks a big game but hasn't delivered.

 

Pegula claims to be a fan and was prior to buying the team. Even the most casual average yet attentive fan knew damn well what the problem with this team is, and Rico just summed it up. Yet, Pegula didn't do anything to resolve that except dig in on it.

 

Intelligent? Brilliant? ... or something else?

 

This team keeps doing the same things over and over while expecting different results.

 

Moreover, all of the new stuff, "analytics" for example, need to run by competent people that don't just do what everyone else is doing but by people that know how to truly analyze and tailor the resulting info to the team. We have yet to see evidence that there is anyone there with that capability.

 

It really isn't complicated, which should tell us exactly how intellectually bereft this team's braintrust truly is. I mean missing the playoffs for what now appears to be heading for two solid decades, assuming that this stuff about Whaley & Ryan being fired if they don't make the playoffs this season is to be believed, is a very difficult thing to do based on simple odds. Per above, if we don't make the playoffs this season, then we'll hold both the historical as well as current playoff futility record, with no end in sight as we keep beating our own record.

 

I guess in the end it all comes down to who's willing to go pay to see this and who isn't. I'm not. I'll be a fan, I'll watch the games when I have time, but I'm not going to pay money and waste my precious time for such grandiose incompetence. Pegula can build his downtown empire, I don't care about that, I care about the Bills making the playoffs and playing like we did on Polian's watch. Right now we're nowhere near that.

 

Is this a business with a product that needs to be sold? Or is it a charity that needs contributions from people under minor threat of not being called a "true fan" if they don't pony-up financial assistance so that incompetent people can be paid money that most of us only dream of in jobs where there is all but zero accountability?

 

Last season was must win season. This year, not so much. This seems like yr. 1 of a defensive rebuild. Three potential new starters on d(rookies), doesn't sound like win now to me.

 

Whaley must have 9 lives. On any other team he isn't even there anymore and we're talking about him as if he's a buffoon. He'll never get another GM job after this one by any team that's going anywhere or that has recently.

Edited May 23, 2016 by TaskersGhost

[Ronin]

Last season was must win season. This year, not so much. This seems like yr. 1 of a defensive rebuild. Three potential new starters on d(rookies), doesn't sound like win now to me.

 

That's an interesting take, but it disagrees with the popular notion that both Whaley & Ryan are gone after the season if they don't make the playoffs. I don't know what to believe on that since nothing has officially/formally been announced as such, and frankly, if Pegula couldn't see the problems coming in as the fan that he said he was, I have zero confidence that he'll see it at all any other time. It's been obviously for 15 years what the core problems are and all he did was dig in on them. I'll predict 5-11 again and that both Whaley & Ryan will both still be here next season.

 

Let's assume that this was not a win-now year then, would that alter the take on the Draft then? Not necessarily by you, generally speaking.

Edited May 23, 2016 by TaskersGhost

[Ronin]

For much of this franchise's existence under past ownership: yes.

 

Under Pegs? No longer.

 

I have to ask, why does this perception exist? What is the concrete reason for it? I see no difference. The difference is what a new owner does to change "business as usual," and Pegula hasn't done a damn thing to change it. He's reinforced it and solidified the nepotistic relationships that do exist. He hasn't distanced himself from any of the problem in the least. We'll truly see how serious he is at the end of this season. The way things are shaping up it's going to be a monumental miracle if we can even match last season's record.

 

Also, what does it say when we only have a chance when another player from a team in the division retires?

 

There isn't an owner out there that has said, "I don't really care whether we win or lose as long as the seats get filled." They all "want to win" and "aren't satisfied with losing."

 

Remember, talk is cheap and it's cheapest from people that have two goals, one for the media and one for their wallets. In our case I believe it's clearly the latter in the interests of Pegula's "One Buffalo," not "Go Bills!" concept.

[26CornerBlitz]

 

I have to ask, why does this perception exist? What is the concrete reason for it? I see no difference. The difference is what a new owner does to change "business as usual," and Pegula hasn't done a damn thing to change it. He's reinforced it and solidified the nepotistic relationships that do exist. He hasn't distanced himself from any of the problem in the least. We'll truly see how serious he is at the end of this season. The way things are shaping up it's going to be a monumental miracle if we can even match last season's record.

 

Also, what does it say when we only have a chance when another player from a team in the division retires?

 

There isn't an owner out there that has said, "I don't really care whether we win or lose as long as the seats get filled." They all "want to win" and "aren't satisfied with losing."

 

Remember, talk is cheap and it's cheapest from people that have two goals, one for the media and one for their wallets. In our case I believe it's clearly the latter in the interests of Pegula's "One Buffalo," not "Go Bills!" concept.

 

Do you think Hughes, Dareus, Glenn, and possibly Gilmore/Taylor all get signed under the ownership of Ralph? If you don't see any tangible difference, it's simply because your eyes are closed.

[Jauronimo]

This thread is embarrassing for many reasons. Its a typical TBD, semantics based, circle jerk with a side of Mongolian cluster f@#$ as the topic has been framed so poorly.

 

The organization is not in win now mode. No matter what a coach or the players may say in an interview, teams with question marks at QB are not in win now mode. If you want to see win now mode, look at Denver since acquiring Manning. They were all over free agency, loading up for a 2 or 3 year run. Talib, Dumervil, Welker, Vernon Davis, Sanders, Ward. Some of those moves were flops, but they went for it with big money short term deals to win while Manning could still play.

 

http://www.milehighreport.com/2014/4/9/5596570/broncos-free-agency-grades-2014

 

Basically sitting out free agency and extending your own drafted and developed talent is not win now. Replacing your free agents with draft picks is not win now. Its a thoughtful and sustainable approach to managing a franchise.

 

Every coach and player will talk about win now since that's their only goal. Theirs is a short term view regardless of circumstance. Win now is reflected in the actions of decision makers. Unless your coach is GM, its really not up to them. Rex, Rob, and a dozen guy named Williams can talk about winning now, or all in, or any other catch phrase but you only need to pay attention to what the front office is doing to answer that question.