Ronin Posted June 1, 2016 Posted June 1, 2016 Best roster in May I can remember since 2004. The OL on paper much better, TE much better. I think this is the best roster in May since 1999. How is the OL much better, it's the same as last season? How is TE much better, it's the same as last season and isn't even very good to begin with. Clay was overhyped. There's nothing after him. I see the weakest set of WRs since before the Kelly era. Strong on RBs. Questionable at QB with Taylor, absolutely no reliable depth at all. Manuel's proven useless and Jones is an enormous project that's nowhere near ready to play QB in the NFL and IMO never will be. OL is strong on the left non-existent on the right. Defense has Dareus, Hughes, an aging Kyle Williams who may be injury prone now as impact players. Then a few starters, by default, but nothing of note in the F7, and rookies and roster fodder. Solid CBs but weak interior coverage/S's. TE: OK, but hardly the best we've ever had. If Watkins or Taylor goes out we're screwed offensively. If Glenn goes down it'll cost us games. Defensively I have no idea how this team improves from last season, particularly now with Lawson out and assuming that he would have played to the expectations placed on him, which is a 50/50 proposition for draft picks as it is. Ragland is a 2-down ILB, nothing more. So is Brown, so who's going to play the passing downs on 3rd's? Well, they will, but neither is good in coverage. Neither are our safeties. That's a lot of key green area to leave open to poor coverage in the modern NFL, wouldn't you say? Brady, Mr. OTM, should have a field day against us this season.
Buffalo_Stampede Posted June 1, 2016 Posted June 1, 2016 How is the OL much better, it's the same as last season? How is TE much better, it's the same as last season and isn't even very good to begin with. Clay was overhyped. There's nothing after him. I see the weakest set of WRs since before the Kelly era. Strong on RBs. Questionable at QB with Taylor, absolutely no reliable depth at all. Manuel's proven useless and Jones is an enormous project that's nowhere near ready to play QB in the NFL and IMO never will be. OL is strong on the left non-existent on the right. Defense has Dareus, Hughes, an aging Kyle Williams who may be injury prone now as impact players. Then a few starters, by default, but nothing of note in the F7, and rookies and roster fodder. Solid CBs but weak interior coverage/S's. TE: OK, but hardly the best we've ever had. If Watkins or Taylor goes out we're screwed offensively. If Glenn goes down it'll cost us games. Defensively I have no idea how this team improves from last season, particularly now with Lawson out and assuming that he would have played to the expectations placed on him, which is a 50/50 proposition for draft picks as it is. Ragland is a 2-down ILB, nothing more. So is Brown, so who's going to play the passing downs on 3rd's? Well, they will, but neither is good in coverage. Neither are our safeties. That's a lot of key green area to leave open to poor coverage in the modern NFL, wouldn't you say? Brady, Mr. OTM, should have a field day against us this season. OL better than 2004 TE better than 2004 Offense better than 2004. The big advantage for the 2004 team is at LB. The Bills weakest position by far needs someone to take lead. Its the best roster the Bills have put on the field since 2004. Having stability at QB is very important.
Ronin Posted June 1, 2016 Posted June 1, 2016 I just watched the Whaley video. Manuel has the it factor, is 6 feet 4, is 240 pounds and can run a 4.6. HEY WHALEY, EJ is a QB....CAN HE PHOCKING THROW? That should be your first question before worrying about his 4.6. ( GO SEE BRADY ) Yes, Im shouting. I never realized Whaley was such a BSer. His whole take is laughable. You'd have thought that we were getting the modern version of Randall Cunningham or something. Thanks for taking the few minutes to watch it, many here still argue Whaley's own words. Apparently three minutes is a bit too much in their crowded schedules to part with in order to hear from Whaley's own mouth the truth on the matter. Im sad to think that Brady is good for another 4 years. I don't think that this is going to be the case. I suspect you'll see some diminishment of his play starting this season. We already saw it last season towards the end of the season, barring some news that he had an injury or something. After starting 10-0 the Pats went 2-4 in their last 6 and Brady's performance in the last five, essentially the last third of the season, was on average a fraction of his play in the first two-thirds. They went 2-3 during that stretch needing any win they could get to get homefield advantage over the Broncos. 3 of Brady's 7 INTs were in his last five games. In the first 12 games he averaged 2.6 TDs/game. In his last four games he averaged 1.25 TDs/game, less than half of that. His completion percentage dropped by nearly 3 points from his first-11 to his last-5. His yards-per-game dropped from 330 to 234 from his first-11 to his last-5. His rating dropped by over 16 points too, So did his YPA by 1.22. His TD/INT went from 2.54/.36 to 1.6/.6. if he were to play like he played in his last-five games all season this year we could expect to see him post approximately 3,700 yards, 25 TDs, and 10 INTs. I know that he thinks that he's going to be playing well into his 40's but Father Time may have different plans. He wouldn't be the first QB to think that, but no one's done it. I don't think he will either. The Pats are a .500 team without him.
Buffalo_Stampede Posted June 1, 2016 Posted June 1, 2016 His whole take is laughable. You'd have thought that we were getting the modern version of Randall Cunningham or something. Thanks for taking the few minutes to watch it, many here still argue Whaley's own words. Apparently three minutes is a bit too much in their crowded schedules to part with in order to hear from Whaley's own mouth the truth on the matter. I don't think that this is going to be the case. I suspect you'll see some diminishment of his play starting this season. We already saw it last season towards the end of the season, barring some news that he had an injury or something. After starting 10-0 the Pats went 2-4 in their last 6 and Brady's performance in the last five, essentially the last third of the season, was on average a fraction of his play in the first two-thirds. They went 2-3 during that stretch needing any win they could get to get homefield advantage over the Broncos. 3 of Brady's 7 INTs were in his last five games. In the first 12 games he averaged 2.6 TDs/game. In his last four games he averaged 1.25 TDs/game, less than half of that. His completion percentage dropped by nearly 3 points from his first-11 to his last-5. His yards-per-game dropped from 330 to 234 from his first-11 to his last-5. His rating dropped by over 16 points too, So did his YPA by 1.22. His TD/INT went from 2.54/.36 to 1.6/.6. if he were to play like he played in his last-five games all season this year we could expect to see him post approximately 3,700 yards, 25 TDs, and 10 INTs. I know that he thinks that he's going to be playing well into his 40's but Father Time may have different plans. He wouldn't be the first QB to think that, but no one's done it. I don't think he will either. The Pats are a .500 team without him. Bills fans need to look at Peyton Manning at 38 vs Peyton Manning at 39. Brady was 38 last year. The drop in play will happen fast when it happens.
Ronin Posted June 1, 2016 Posted June 1, 2016 Bills Walsh said Trent Edwards had the "IT" factor. QB is nearly impossible to scout. Jamarcus Russell was the unanimous #1 overall pick. "Medical staff cleared him, said he can play. Now, if something happens, it’s going to happen, but it’s nothing that we’re real worried about or we wouldn’t have taken him. We got complete faith in our medical staff and they signed off on him, so we’re excited to have him." Bill Walsh wasn't a sitting GM at the time however, he was a washed up has-been. Edwards also wasn't a 1st-round reach pick, he was a 3rd rounder. People say all kinds of things, but reaching for a QB that no other teams, except for Philly per rumor only, and likely a fool one to get some GM like Whaley to bite, is an entirely different matter. Either way, that's an excuse for Whaley. The fact is that the pick was a huge reach and never should have been made. Two FSU student sports writers that had watched every game of Manuel's laid out very nicely exactly what all of his issues were prior to the draft. Those issues have played out perfectly here in Buffalo. Whaley would have been well advised to have read that and frankly, that's his job, which either he failed to do or which turned into advice that he in his "smarter by half" ways completey ignored and which more seems to be his mantra now. This is also why he didn't challenge the medical staff. He knew, or should have known without excuse, that many others out there, most in fact if not the vast majority, knew that Lawson would in fact require surgery. Having known that if he was insistent on pulling the trigger on Lawson, he should have made it clear that someone in the medical staff's job was on the line should their advice be wrong. I have a hunch that he's still not telling the truth, that maybe the medical staff gave odds/chances of his not-needing/needing surgery, etc., and that because it was at least 51-percent that Whaley considers that "cleared." Either way, Whaley's such a liar that he really shouldn't even be believed anymore. The Ryans may not be liars, they may simply be egotistical fools that think that just because they say something it's going to happen. Either way, it's a circus here. Carruci, regardless of whether or not you care for his opinions, summed it up succinctly in his recent piece; First, there was the Shaq Lawson no-surgery-yes-surgery fiasco. Then, there was the Doug Whaley humans-weren't-meant-to-play-football remark, followed by a retraction. Then, there was the silly you-can't-tweet-about-dropped-passes-and-interceptions-in-practice media policy (wait, sorry, we didn't mean to include training camp). Then, there was the Ryan Brothers' we'll-beat-Bill-Belichick/not-sure-we-have-100-percent-buy-in-in-the-building Q&A with MMQB. Then there's the Henderson thing with Ryan never even having bothered to reach out to Seantrel, then he'll scratch his demented noodle as to why Henderson might not want to stay here if he happens to have a great couple of seasons. I mean a team can only appear to be so foolish and idiotic without sacrificing respect around the league. We've passed that point. Bills fans need to look at Peyton Manning at 38 vs Peyton Manning at 39. Brady was 38 last year. The drop in play will happen fast when it happens. That's exactly right! Few QBs saw it coming, most don't even make it to 39. Many greats did not. A few, like Favre, tried, and had one successful season wedged in there, but only a desperate team would be willing to try that. If Brady has one good season in the next four in NE like Favre had at the end of his career, I'll be very happy if they keep him and don't move on. Having said that, IMO it's going to take either a really horrid season, ala Manning, or two mediocre ones to get NE to do something going forward.
Big Hurt Posted June 1, 2016 Posted June 1, 2016 I don't know if we are in "win now mode", but I am pretty damn sure Rex is always in "TALK NOW MODE".
Ronin Posted June 1, 2016 Posted June 1, 2016 OL better than 2004 TE better than 2004 Offense better than 2004. The big advantage for the 2004 team is at LB. The Bills weakest position by far needs someone to take lead. Its the best roster the Bills have put on the field since 2004. Having stability at QB is very important. Well, OK, then they were better than '04 last season too then, right? Why are we comparing to 2004 anyway? That season was predicated upon wins over weak teams that were decimated by injuries leading to false hope for the following season. Also, I would argue that our OL is better now, the left side is notably superior, but as of now we have no idea who the starters are even going to be on the right side and the roster of choices is hardly encouraging. The '04 line didn't have that drop in talent from left to right. It probably is better today, but not because it's solid, only because Glenn, Incognito, and Wood are so good. That won't help against pressure coming from the right side or the rushing lanes being shut down over there. And when Clay's "better than" anyone it should be cause for concern. Agree with you on LB, and we have no ILB that can cover. That's going to be a huge issue as the season progresses. We in essence have a pair of 2-down ILBs and nothing else. No one that can cover there and play middle. Glitch in Whaley's draft process or just plain idiocy? Same for our Safeties, none are good cover safeties. That's going to be an issue all season. But hey, maybe Dareus can cover deep and Graham can rush the passer from the NT position. Ryan's so clever. I don't know if we are in "win now mode", but I am pretty damn sure Rex is always in "TALK NOW MODE". Ain't that the truth! And now there's two of 'em blathering. They can make a Doublemint gum commercial. This season is either going to be really exciting or tank much faster than usual. We could be out of it by mid-October.
Buffalo_Stampede Posted June 1, 2016 Posted June 1, 2016 Well, OK, then they were better than '04 last season too then, right? Why are we comparing to 2004 anyway? That season was predicated upon wins over weak teams that were decimated by injuries leading to false hope for the following season. Also, I would argue that our OL is better now, the left side is notably superior, but as of now we have no idea who the starters are even going to be on the right side and the roster of choices is hardly encouraging. The '04 line didn't have that drop in talent from left to right. It probably is better today, but not because it's solid, only because Glenn, Incognito, and Wood are so good. That won't help against pressure coming from the right side or the rushing lanes being shut down over there. And when Clay's "better than" anyone it should be cause for concern. Agree with you on LB, and we have no ILB that can cover. That's going to be a huge issue as the season progresses. We in essence have a pair of 2-down ILBs and nothing else. No one that can cover there and play middle. Glitch in Whaley's draft process or just plain idiocy? Same for our Safeties, none are good cover safeties. That's going to be an issue all season. But hey, maybe Dareus can cover deep and Graham can rush the passer from the NT position. Ryan's so clever. Ain't that the truth! And now there's two of 'em blathering. They can make a Doublemint gum commercial. This season is either going to be really exciting or tank much faster than usual. We could be out of it by mid-October. Preston Brown was graded very well in coverage as a rookie. He never left the field. Last season he was mostly slow to react because he simply didn't know his assignments well enough. Zach Brown has been a good coverage LB in the league. So I don't agree we have no one that can cover. Manny Lawson also does a decent job if asked. The biggest thing for Rex Ryan and the Bills defense, especially the front 7 is just getting on the same page. This defense is still incredibly talented. When you have 2 shutdown CB's and 2 DTs that require doubles calling the defense should not be difficult. They should be good. No excuses.
Best Player Available Posted June 1, 2016 Posted June 1, 2016 OL better than 2004 TE better than 2004 Offense better than 2004. The big advantage for the 2004 team is at LB. The Bills weakest position by far needs someone to take lead. Its the best roster the Bills have put on the field since 2004. Having stability at QB is very important. 2004?????? Historically speaking some might say the 1966 offense would crush this cast. What does the year 2004 have to do with the price of Yak in China?
Formerly Allan in MD Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 2017-18 season. Salary cap will be of incredible help for next season. And Taylor will have another year of experience. And it will be like having two first round picks with Lawson back (he'll be of little help this season, especially after missing camp).
Ronin Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 Preston Brown was graded very well in coverage as a rookie. He never left the field. Last season he was mostly slow to react because he simply didn't know his assignments well enough. Well, nothing says he'll know them any better this season. But passing assignments are different than blocking assignments. He may have graded well as a rookie in coverage, which I'd like to see, but he sucked last year and wasn't really great at anything. Blame it on what you will, but coming out in the draft coverage was hardly average much less his strong suit. Everyone overachieved that season due to Schwartz's coaching, but that's long gone now. I don't think anyone else could have gotten what Schwartz got from that group of guys. Ryan should have gotten a lot more than he did, but even him. Zach Brown has been a good coverage LB in the league. So I don't agree we have no one that can cover. Manny Lawson also does a decent job if asked. Hi standards there, wouldn't you say. Neither of those two guys has even proven to be an average starter. That's a stretch with Lawson, besides, he'll be needed to play outside, particularly now that the other Lawson won't be available. Zach Brown? You serious? That's our big solution on 3rd-downs and obvious passing downs? Also, why take Ragland so high given all of this? Don't you think that it was shortsighted, which is right up Ryan's alley, to draft an ILB that can't cover when that's what we already had? The biggest thing for Rex Ryan and the Bills defense, especially the front 7 is just getting on the same page. This defense is still incredibly talented. When you have 2 shutdown CB's and 2 DTs that require doubles calling the defense should not be difficult. They should be good. No excuses. Who knows why players didn't know their assignments last year, but the onus is on the team to prove that it won't repeat, not us as fans to trust that liars aren't going to continue to lie. It's a massive assumption that they're all going to be on the same page this season. Ryan says that he made a mistake bout trying to run a hybrid of his and Schwartz's system and that he's going to run only his own this year. So since it wasn't Schwartz's, it must have been his that had DL-men dropping into coverage. I don't think that's going to put everyone on the same page, particularly if the winning doesn't come fast and furiously. We do have two shut-down corners and 2 DTs, when healthy (Kyle at 33), but our middle is wide open, and that's where most NFL passes go. That's hardly odds-on for us. Either way, you appear to be contradicting yourself and throwing up as much mud as possible hoping to get something to stick while adcknowledging the issue.
Buffalo Barbarian Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 Does Manuel have that big a cap hit in year four of his original four-year deal? I can't imagine given the rookie wage scale. Certainly not worth typing up a QB spot anyway. You have to remember that consuming one spot is an opportunity cost as it is. Manuel has no ability to win games, he's essentially useless as a backup QB. As to Whaley's 1st's, are you sure? For four 1st-round picks now, and an additional 4th-rounder, here's what Whaley has netted; Manuel, a BUST. Watkins, a ridiculous trade-up and another player that's one significant injury away from being all but a bust. And now Shaq Lawson, whom Whaley ignored known issues with to select a player that we'll be fortunate to see on the field for the second half of the season and even then not at 100% following shoulder surgery, and that's if things work out swimmingly. There's also no guarantee that he's as good as everyone thinks either, as with most draft picks. You still think that's OK and not horrible or bad? If you ask me, if he were the GM of any other team the same people supporting him here would be laughing at him in mockery. I don't see how anyone can possibly view that as anything other than highly questionable at best, which is not even "OK." Put another way, if his 1st-round performance continues like that, assuming he stays on as GM which I say he will regardless of what happens, will you be happy? based on his overall draft, not just first round he has done ok.
thebandit27 Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 Does Manuel have that big a cap hit in year four of his original four-year deal? I can't imagine given the rookie wage scale. Certainly not worth typing up a QB spot anyway. You have to remember that consuming one spot is an opportunity cost as it is. Manuel has no ability to win games, he's essentially useless as a backup QB. As to Whaley's 1st's, are you sure? For four 1st-round picks now, and an additional 4th-rounder, here's what Whaley has netted; Manuel, a BUST. Watkins, a ridiculous trade-up and another player that's one significant injury away from being all but a bust. And now Shaq Lawson, whom Whaley ignored known issues with to select a player that we'll be fortunate to see on the field for the second half of the season and even then not at 100% following shoulder surgery, and that's if things work out swimmingly. There's also no guarantee that he's as good as everyone thinks either, as with most draft picks. You still think that's OK and not horrible or bad? If you ask me, if he were the GM of any other team the same people supporting him here would be laughing at him in mockery. I don't see how anyone can possibly view that as anything other than highly questionable at best, which is not even "OK." Put another way, if his 1st-round performance continues like that, assuming he stays on as GM which I say he will regardless of what happens, will you be happy? The problem I have is that you're using hyperbole to make your point. Watkins is not one significant injury away from being a bust, unless that's also true of every other player in the league. The guy has missed 3 games in two seasons. I also saw you mention that he's not even the best WR from his class; that's debatable actually. It's not a coincidence that once he started to receive similar targets to Beckham, he started out-producing him (seriously--check the final 8 games of 2015). It's also not prudent to ignore Whaley's use of the 8th pick in the 2013 draft. it's fine to blast the Manuel pick, but let's remember that the 8th pick in the draft was used to acquire the 16th and 45th picks, which turned into EJ and Kiko Alonso, which turned into EJ and LeSean McCoy. Yes, that matters when evaluating the use of draft picks. As far as Shaq goes, you've been consistent in over-stating the injury. It's a 5-6 month recovery time before he'll be back to 100%. With surgery in late April, that puts him at 100% around mid-October; they won't be lucky to have him on the field. The plan is to have him for the final 10-11 games. By all accounts, Shaq was a top-tier draft prospect, and it would be foolish to pass on a guy that they feel will be a long-term defensive stud simply because he might miss time as a rookie. If we're to analyze Whaley's first-round performance from 2013, here's the run-down of how his first-round picks were invested: 2013 - 8th overall used to acquire 16th overall and 45th overall, which eventually turned into EJ Manuel and LeSean McCoy 2014 - 9th overall plus 19th overall in 2015 plus 4th round pick used to acquire Sammy Watkins 2015 - see above 2016 - Shaq Lawson So in the 4 drafts that this discussion attributes to Whaley, he's acquired EJ (a pick with which I had zero problem even if it didn't work out)--a definite bust, our two best offensive players, and Shaq Lawson. In the very least, that's "ok", though I'd say it's "good". However, the draft goes well beyond the 1st round. Since 2013, it's been a mixed bag for Whaley, just like it has been for Ozzie Newsome, Kevin Colbert, and several other high-end GMs. John Schnedier, who was lauded as the architect of Seattle's superbowl team, hasn't drafted a starter with any pick since 2012. Drafts are always a mixed bag. Whaley's been right around the average of drafting 2-3 starters per year. Since 2013, the guys that he's drafted that are current starters are: Woods Watkins Brown Henderson (assuming he's healthy) Darby Miller Understand, however, that personnel acquisition goes beyond the drat too. The current crop of starters from Whaley's FA acquisitions and trades includes: Taylor McCoy Incognito Clay Hughes Ragland (assuming he starts) Bryant/Washington Graham I think it's a reach to say how bad he's been.
Ronin Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 based on his overall draft, not just first round he has done ok. Name the players that you think have been good, by round. We've gotten hardly anything from the 3rd round on out.
Ronin Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 The problem I have is that you're using hyperbole to make your point. Watkins is not one significant injury away from being a bust, unless that's also true of every other player in the league. The guy has missed 3 games in two seasons. I also saw you mention that he's not even the best WR from his class; that's debatable actually. It's not a coincidence that once he started to receive similar targets to Beckham, he started out-producing him (seriously--check the final 8 games of 2015). It's also not prudent to ignore Whaley's use of the 8th pick in the 2013 draft. it's fine to blast the Manuel pick, but let's remember that the 8th pick in the draft was used to acquire the 16th and 45th picks, which turned into EJ and Kiko Alonso, which turned into EJ and LeSean McCoy. Yes, that matters when evaluating the use of draft picks. As far as Shaq goes, you've been consistent in over-stating the injury. It's a 5-6 month recovery time before he'll be back to 100%. With surgery in late April, that puts him at 100% around mid-October; they won't be lucky to have him on the field. The plan is to have him for the final 10-11 games. By all accounts, Shaq was a top-tier draft prospect, and it would be foolish to pass on a guy that they feel will be a long-term defensive stud simply because he might miss time as a rookie. If we're to analyze Whaley's first-round performance from 2013, here's the run-down of how his first-round picks were invested: 2013 - 8th overall used to acquire 16th overall and 45th overall, which eventually turned into EJ Manuel and LeSean McCoy 2014 - 9th overall plus 19th overall in 2015 plus 4th round pick used to acquire Sammy Watkins 2015 - see above 2016 - Shaq Lawson So in the 4 drafts that this discussion attributes to Whaley, he's acquired EJ (a pick with which I had zero problem even if it didn't work out)--a definite bust, our two best offensive players, and Shaq Lawson. In the very least, that's "ok", though I'd say it's "good". However, the draft goes well beyond the 1st round. Since 2013, it's been a mixed bag for Whaley, just like it has been for Ozzie Newsome, Kevin Colbert, and several other high-end GMs. John Schnedier, who was lauded as the architect of Seattle's superbowl team, hasn't drafted a starter with any pick since 2012. Drafts are always a mixed bag. Whaley's been right around the average of drafting 2-3 starters per year. Since 2013, the guys that he's drafted that are current starters are: Woods Watkins Brown Henderson (assuming he's healthy) Darby Miller Understand, however, that personnel acquisition goes beyond the drat too. The current crop of starters from Whaley's FA acquisitions and trades includes: Taylor McCoy Incognito Clay Hughes Ragland (assuming he starts) Bryant/Washington Graham I think it's a reach to say how bad he's been. Talk about hyperbole. Most of your arguments, if we can even call them that, are excuses. Watkins was supposed to be special. He can't even finish among the top-20 WRs every year and he's the only thing we have going since he's been here. He couldn't even hit 1,000 yards in his rookie season and he barely did so last season. That's hardly superb, in fact, it's really not all that impressive at all, particularly not for a WR that cost two 1st-round picks and a 4th. He's only missed 3 games, but how blatantly you sidestep the number of games that he's been far from 100% in. There's another, at least, half a season, at least. If all he does is barely put up 1,000 yards, with half of those games resulting in losses anyway, we have to start considering how much he's really worth if he gets hurt again. Oh wait, he is hurt again. How much money would you put down on the notion that he'll make it through the season injury-free? Only a fool would do that. As to Shaq, by all accounts almost every player in round 1 is a top tier player, but seriously, do you really need me to tell you that that's not how it typically works out? I know I know, all of our players will work out. Got it, just like they always do. The bottom line, your excuses aside, is that Shaq is not going to be anywhere close to ready in September and it's a foolish proposition to suggest that after having missed all the conditioning, all the camp stuff, all the playing time, that he's all of a sudden going to step onto the field and be all that. That's the problem here, you look at everything through rose-colored lenses. Sorry, but it's not going to work out that way all the way around. I love your starters list. The only people in the world that think that Miller's anything but a project at this point are a subset of Bills fans. Everyone else sees the truth, that his play, at absolute best, was inconsistent, below average on the whole otherwise, and that he too has already shown signs of being injury prone. Henderson? LOL Why not throw all the other 3th thu 6th round picks in there too. It's a longshot that Henderson amounts to becoming an above average starter, which is what you should be looking for, not mediocre starters and starter/backup tweeners since those aren't the types of players that are going to help us end our playoff drought. Brown? Again, you serious? Another low-end starter with limited skills. Sure, great against the run, ... in a passing league, and with no pass defense skills to speak of. Ragland's a carbon copy, I'm surprised that you haven't mentioned his future Pro Bowl status. Then you say "assuming he starts." LOL he dam well better. What we have behind him is crap and if we drafted a non-starting player when we could have drafted starters at other deeper positions in the draft, like WR among them, then that's just one more reason why Whaley should have been gone by now. BTW, have you looked at the Alabama pedigree for LBs in the NFL? Here's a clue, they haven't fared well despite being highly graded coming in. All we have is hope that Ragland isn't the next in that disappointing string. Taylor was Ryan's choice as any true Bills fan that's paying any attention should know. Again, talk about hyperbole. If Whaley had had his way Manuel would be starting. Clay's been an extreme waste of money so far. Graham? Seriously, again, not a great cover safety at all and a marginal starter at best. Bryant/Washington? LOL, again, hyperbole. Washington hasn't taken a snap and I'm still not sure where he's playing as there is not starting spot for him, yet, apparently we needed another backup, because Ryan, Mr. Integrity said so. So he'll be a depth player out of the gate. Again, we're not going anywhere led by players like Bryant. So reduce your list of pats-on-the-back for Whaley by that list of marginal starters and players for which "assumptions" are needed, unfounded ones at that, and then rethink your position.
Ronin Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 (edited) The problem I have is that you're using hyperbole to make your point. Watkins is not one significant injury away from being a bust, unless that's also true of every other player in the league. The guy has missed 3 games in two seasons. I also saw you mention that he's not even the best WR from his class; that's debatable actually. It's not a coincidence that once he started to receive similar targets to Beckham, he started out-producing him (seriously--check the final 8 games of 2015). BTW, I don't think that it's debatable at all. Forget the fact that in terms of evaluation of GMs all of his draft class WRs cost only one draft pick, not three including a pair of 1st-rounders. Otherwise, Beckum has not only performed better but on on four fewer games and worlds better. You're on an island, outside of Buffalo that is, in suggesting that there's even a comparison. Mike Evans has posted better numbers with comparable QB play. Brandon Cooks has posted comparable and he's started only about two-thirds the games that Sammy has and isn't even a #1 WR. Benjamin outplayed Watkins in their rookie season. Jordan Matthews and Jarvis Landry have also both posted comparable numbers considering that they haven't started as many games as Watkins either. Neither of them have had QB play any better than Watkins has. John Brown down in Arizona has also played comparably but on half the starts and as with most of the rest of the above, he's not the #1 WR like Sammy is. So I think you should probably familiarize yourself with Sammy's draft class before sticking to that argument. And if he can't manage to remain healthy for all 16 games this season, not to mention step up his play some, then he'll be unreliable at best going forward and the team would be stupid to sign him to his option year if he gets hurt every season. Right now he has this seemingly significant hurdle to leap over in order to justify his value to this team this season. All signs point to his injury being a Jones Fracture, despite the opinion of posters here that seem to think that silence from our boneheaded medical staff indicates that it isn't. If it is, then it will be interesting to be sure. But to talk about him as if he's already licked this and is on his way to a superstar season is way, way, way too premature at this point, on both counts. Love to see it, but caution suggests that it may not be the case. Edited June 2, 2016 by TaskersGhost
thebandit27 Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 Wait, so characterizing Sammy as being one injury from being a bust is rational, but calling starters starters is hyperbole? This is no longer a reasonable discussion. I'll rethink my position as soon as you're willing to acknowledge rational points, even if they conflict with your own. Until then, I see no reason to carry on with this while you ascribe points to me that I never made (such as "everyone will work out" and "Ragland is a pro bowler") and make BS generalizations (as though I'm anpollyanna--Folks with even half a clue about me know better). Drop the extreme statements, straw-man arguments, and general attack-based numbskullery and I'll reengage.
thebandit27 Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 (edited) BTW, I don't think that it's debatable at all. Forget the fact that in terms of evaluation of GMs all of his draft class WRs cost only one draft pick, not three including a pair of 1st-rounders. Otherwise, Beckum has not only performed better but on on four fewer games and worlds better. You're on an island, outside of Buffalo that is, in suggesting that there's even a comparison. Mike Evans has posted better numbers with comparable QB play. Brandon Cooks has posted comparable and he's started only about two-thirds the games that Sammy has and isn't even a #1 WR. Benjamin outplayed Watkins in their rookie season. Jordan Matthews and Jarvis Landry have also both posted comparable numbers considering that they haven't started as many games as Watkins either. Neither of them have had QB play any better than Watkins has. John Brown down in Arizona has also played comparably but on half the starts and as with most of the rest of the above, he's not the #1 WR like Sammy is. So I think you should probably familiarize yourself with Sammy's draft class before sticking to that argument. And if he can't manage to remain healthy for all 16 games this season, not to mention step up his play some, then he'll be unreliable at best going forward and the team would be stupid to sign him to his option year if he gets hurt every season. Right now he has this seemingly significant hurdle to leap over in order to justify his value to this team this season. All signs point to his injury being a Jones Fracture, despite the opinion of posters here that seem to think that silence from our boneheaded medical staff indicates that it isn't. If it is, then it will be interesting to be sure. But to talk about him as if he's already licked this and is on his way to a superstar season is way, way, way too premature at this point, on both counts. Love to see it, but caution suggests that it may not be the case. I get it, so we should just look at box scores and make our determination based on those? Nice analysis. How about we look at yards/target, or maybe try to give some context to the discussion before you go espousing the merits of guys like Jarvis Landry, who catches a bevy of 4-yard passes and gets pro bowl votes because he piles up useless numbers (a real robust 10.5 yards/reception and 4 TDs in 16 games with a mere 3 catches of 40 yards or more; those are Charles Clay numbers on about 100 more targets in 3 more games for the uninitiated). Meanwhile, Sammy gets 70 fewer targets on the season, and piles up more than twice as many TDs, a 70% higher yards/reception, and more than twice as many catches of over 40 yards in 3 fewer games. What we have here is a post that reeks of pulling up a stat sheet and firing off an opinion haphazardly (at least I hope that's the case, because if you really considered what you wrote and still hit the "post" button, well, I'm worried). As I said before, once the team made it a priority to get Sammy more targets, he out-produced every WR in the NFL not named Antonio Brown. The numbers are clear: http://nysportsbiz.com/2016/01/04/sammy-watkins-arguably-nfls-top-wr-2nd-half-season/ Feel free to look, consider, think, and then respond. A quick response attempting to marginalize it would be tantamount to admitting ignorance. EDIT: and here's an article about just how insane Sammy's performance was over the final 8 games of 2015... http://www.footballperspective.com/guest-post-adam-harstad-on-sammy-watkins/ Edited June 2, 2016 by thebandit27
CommonCents Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 Sammy has to remain healthy for 16 games before we can say what he is or isn't. He finished strong last year hopefully this foot injury heals up and he comes back rested and 100 percent. If your going to argue about the 2014 WR draft class I would suggest you include Allen Robinson, he is as good as any and leaps and bounds above the Jarvis Landry, Jordan Matthews, Cooks etc.
thebandit27 Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 Sammy has to remain healthy for 16 games before we can say what he is or isn't. He finished strong last year hopefully this foot injury heals up and he comes back rested and 100 percent. If your going to argue about the 2014 WR draft class I would suggest you include Allen Robinson, he is as good as any and leaps and bounds above the Jarvis Landry, Jordan Matthews, Cooks etc. Why? Most of the football world was calling Julio Jones elite after his sophomore season, and at that point he had missed the same number of games as Sammy and put up similar numbers; he then went out in year 3 and missed 11 games. We know for a fact that he's elite, don't we? Antonio Brown didn't come close to Sammy's numbers in a year 1 that saw him miss 7 games, had a solid-but-unspectacular season in year 2, and a down year in a year 3 that saw him miss 3 more games. We know for a fact that he's elite, don't we? Dez Bryant missed 5 games over his first 2 seasons, and never had numbers that approached Sammy's rookie numbers (let alone what he did last year). We know for a fact that he's elite, don't we? Sorry, I'm not trying to sound adversarial. My point is that he doesn't have to stay healthy for 16 games to show what he is; he was very clearly the focal point of the team's passing game last season, and defensive coordinators were very clearly game-planning for him, yet he still produced at an historic rate over the final 9 games (i.e. once they started throwing him the ball on a somewhat consistent basis). All he has to do is continue to produce the way he has when given opportunities, and everything else will work itself out.
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