GG Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 Libertarian Gary Johnson: "Religious freedom, as a category" is "a black hole" http://washex.am/2aliPaj Funny, that's where my chance of voting for Johnson went, with this ridiculous BS Cooper asked him about the black hole comment, and then Johnson stammered a bit about people using religion to discriminate, which he doesn't support, and then recovered sufficiently to expand that his view under the existing laws is that a baker can refuse to decorate a cake on religious grounds, but can't refuse to sell the cake to someone on religious grounds if it's for sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 Cooper asked him about the black hole comment, and then Johnson stammered a bit about people using religion to discriminate, which he doesn't support, and then recovered sufficiently to expand that his view under the existing laws is that a baker can refuse to decorate a cake on religious grounds, but can't refuse to sell the cake to someone on religious grounds if it's for sale. Oh...okay. Is it even possible to split that hair any finer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 (edited) You mean like freedom of religion? Yeah but more so how Gary applied a nonsensical argument that someone could murder someone else and claim they did it for their religion to get protection. An absurd quote, to say the least. Edited August 4, 2016 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 Hhhmmm and I liked the black hole comment, so there you go. Funny, every pres election year they show polls that most people would not vote for an atheist. I always think the atheist is the only one that isn't nuts, so that's the one I would vote for. Religious freedom has become a black hole. When people argue that somehow baking a cake or photographing an event ( things they do for a living) are somehow practicing a religion, it could be broadened to include almost anything. Religion has zero place in politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grinreaper Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 Hhhmmm and I liked the black hole comment, so there you go. Funny, every pres election year they show polls that most people would not vote for an atheist. I always think the atheist is the only one that isn't nuts, so that's the one I would vote for. Religious freedom has become a black hole. When people argue that somehow baking a cake or photographing an event ( things they do for a living) are somehow practicing a religion, it could be broadened to include almost anything. Religion has zero place in politics. Forcing someone to join in or support something that is against their religion is what's wrong. It's a slippery slope that can only lead to disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 Forcing someone to join in or support something that is against their religion is what's wrong. It's a slippery slope that can only lead to disaster. Does that include the religion of global warming belief or homo-orthodoxy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grinreaper Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 Does that include the religion of global warming belief or homo-orthodoxy? Yes it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbillievable Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Oh...okay. Is it even possible to split that hair any finer? It reminds me of the school policy of having free condoms in a jar being fine, but handing them out to students is against the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Forcing someone to join in or support something that is against their religion is what's wrong. It's a slippery slope that can only lead to disaster. Allowing discrimination against anyone in the name of religion or saying that religion somehow makes it ok is the disaster. Photographing an event or baking a cake to be eaten at one is not participating in the event or even supporting it. That is a major stretch and just an excuse to discriminate. If you are in business you must serve all customers , that is the society we live in. Religion , more than the love of money, is the root of most of societies ills. There is no slippery slope. Don't discriminate and you'll be fine. I couldn't not serve, say a Muslim customer because I don't like how they treat women. I deeply hold that belief that it is wrong, just as deep as any " religious " belief and just as valid. But if I am in business I would still have to serve them . It's not a difficult concept and and it doesn't mean I'm supporting mistreatment of women. Just providing a service to a customer that I probably have little in common with and would agree with them on almost nothing. That is business however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 (edited) Allowing discrimination against anyone in the name of religion or saying that religion somehow makes it ok is the disaster. Photographing an event or baking a cake to be eaten at one is not participating in the event or even supporting it. That is a major stretch and just an excuse to discriminate. If you are in business you must serve all customers , that is the society we live in. Religion , more than the love of money, is the root of most of societies ills. There is no slippery slope. Don't discriminate and you'll be fine. I couldn't not serve, say a Muslim customer because I don't like how they treat women. I deeply hold that belief that it is wrong, just as deep as any " religious " belief and just as valid. But if I am in business I would still have to serve them . It's not a difficult concept and and it doesn't mean I'm supporting mistreatment of women. Just providing a service to a customer that I probably have little in common with and would agree with them on almost nothing. That is business however. You are truly deranged... Forcing someone to violate their religious beliefs is the antithesis of what our nation was founded on. But carry on. Edited August 5, 2016 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Religion , more than the love of money, is the root of most of societies ills. Unless that religion is progressivism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
....lybob Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 You are truly deranged... Forcing someone to violate their religious beliefs is the antithesis of what our nation was founded on. But carry on. There are all kinds of religious beliefs we make illegal and punishable - We don't let Christian scientists withhold medical treatment from their children, Polygamy is illegal regardless of your religious beliefs, Being Rastafarian does not allow you to smoke weed legally, you can't stone your children no matter how disrespectful they are and no matter how much my God Cthulhu needs human sacrifices they remain a legal no no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 (edited) There are all kinds of religious beliefs we make illegal and punishable - We don't let Christian scientists withhold medical treatment from their children, Polygamy is illegal regardless of your religious beliefs, Being Rastafarian does not allow you to smoke weed legally, you can't stone your children no matter how disrespectful they are and no matter how much my God Cthulhu needs human sacrifices they remain a legal no no. And some of those things on your list shouldn't be illegal and the rest are that Latin absurd phrase. Edited August 5, 2016 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 And some of those things on your list shouldn't be illegal and the rest are that Latin absurd phrase. Reductio ad absurdum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Reductio ad absurdum That one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grinreaper Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 There are all kinds of religious beliefs we make illegal and punishable - We don't let Christian scientists withhold medical treatment from their children, Polygamy is illegal regardless of your religious beliefs, Being Rastafarian does not allow you to smoke weed legally, you can't stone your children no matter how disrespectful they are and no matter how much my God Cthulhu needs human sacrifices they remain a legal no no. Methinks you just don't understand the issue. Should the government be able to force me to stone my children or smoke weed? Obviously not, so why should they force me to take pictures at a gay wedding or bake them a cake? I personally wouldn't want someone commemorating my wedding or preparing food for me and my guests that really, really didn't want to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Methinks you just don't understand the issue. Should the government be able to force me to stone my children or smoke weed? Obviously not, so why should they force me to take pictures at a gay wedding or bake them a cake? I personally wouldn't want someone commemorating my wedding or preparing food for me and my guests that really, really didn't want to do it. The issue is if a business should have to serve all customers or be allowed to discriminate . If you are performing the service as a hobby, that is different. Do as you please. It's quite possible that the people that commemorated your wedding or prepared the food really really didn't want to do it. They may have preferred to be playing golf, going to the beach, etc. However they performed the services to make money, as a business or an employee of a business. You could stone your children or smoke weed if you want, but I doubt anyone would pay you to do it as a business entity. It's no different than say, refusing to photograph a persons second wedding because you don't believe in divorce or refusing because the couple were overweight, and you just really didn't want to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Oh...okay. Is it even possible to split that hair any finer? Probably not, but that's exactly why these things are debated forever. That's why you have the famous phrase of "I can't define it, but I know when I see it" I tend to separate it along a crude line of manufacturing and service. So to extend Johnson's line of thinking - If you bake the cakes and put them on a display, you can't deny selling them to anybody who gives you the proper payment. But if someone comes in to request a special cake and decoration, to which you disagree with on religious grounds, then you can deny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Unless that religion is progressivism. Lol ... And just to clarify, I am not a progressive or liberal or whatever. Politically I am a "none" . I would align with a party that was strong on defense, was for low taxes, supported abortion rights and recognized the right to marry whomever you choose as marriage is strictly a legal union with no connection to any religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 You are truly deranged... Forcing someone to violate their religious beliefs is the antithesis of what our nation was founded on. But carry on. No , the religious folk are the ones who are deranged. That , however is not PC to say. I personally do not care if someone wants to believe in fairy tales, they are free to do so. I'm not aware of any religious text that says one should not photograph a particular type of ceremony or that one should not provide food to any non heterosexuals in exchange for a cash retainer. But hey, I'm no expert on fairy tales either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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