The equally annoying "Obnoxiously Obtuse Optimists"

[FireChan]

Well yeah but.....jesus Chan

I didn't split hairs. I just said Pettine had a top ten D in the last 4 years and Rex didn't. TBH, I didn't even know he was 11.

[BADOLBILZ]

 

Yeah, the biggest difference between the two, IMO, is that what Suggs lacked athletically he made up for with a really solid, consistent get-off.

 

Shaq, on the other hand, is a bit better athlete, and probably a bit stronger at the POA when 100% healthy, but he doesn't have the same initial jump. I think that's one of the reasons he'll play as a 2-point a bit more than he would in other schemes--it'll give him a bit more space to execute. He's also got a really nice, well-developed inside move that I don't see from a lot of college EDGE guys (though it's nowhere near the type of inside move JJ Watt had coming out of Wisconsin).

 

I do think they share the relentless trait as Simon mentioned.

 

That said, there are many ways to skin the cat as a pass rusher, as we've seen with the vast differences between the way guys like Hughes and Mario create their pressure. Assuming Shaq's shoulder comes through (which I do), I think he'll be a consistent factor in the pass rush moving forward.

 

 

Yeah his get-off is not good.........he was more often than not the LAST guy off the ball for Clemson.

 

That initial get-off is the foundation of a highly productive pass rusher.

 

Obviously you still gotta put a couple floors and a roof on it to be special.....Aaron Maybin could not get off the ground despite a quick first step......but becoming a great pass rusher with a slow get-off is a monumental task.

 

The effectiveness of pass rush technique is time sensitive.......not allowing the tackle to get set up before he has to start making decisions is very important.

[John from Riverside]

 

 

Yeah his get-off is not good.........he was more often than not the LAST guy off the ball for Clemson.

 

That initial get-off is the foundation of a highly productive pass rusher.

 

Obviously you still gotta put a couple floors and a roof on it to be special.....Aaron Maybin could not get off the ground despite a quick first step......but becoming a great pass rusher with a slow get-off is a monumental task.

 

The effectiveness of pass rush technique is time sensitive.......not allowing the tackle to get set up before he has to start making decisions is very important.

I see a player that relies on his power more then his initial first step when rushing the passer.

 

It could also be the way Clemson is asking him to play.....he is setting the edge and making sure he also plays the run.....notice the way he lowers his shoulder to force things inside and gain leverage so as not to allow a runner to gain his outside edge.

 

I am not saying you are wrong that he will need to be faster off the snap in the NFL....just that he did not need to be to be good at the college level.

[Bill from NYC]

It was a waste of around 250 million dollars last season!! Because that entire D-line was forced to play in a scheme that didn't fit their talents. It's kinda why Dareus bitched about it since training camp and then later Mario went public with his dislike of how he was being used in Ryan's scheme. Mario didn't complain as much about the scheme as he disliked dropping into pass coverage so often. Talk about a colossal waste of talent! The Bills could have had four 330lb inept slugs on that D-line instead of such highly skilled pro bowl pass rushers and still done as well.

 

Think about running a version of Dick Lebeau's zone blitz with the players that Buffalo had at linebacker last year. What makes more sense, to rush with the front four or send a D-linemen into pass coverage so a LBer could rush? The 2015 Bills coaches were happy about Mario dropping into pass coverage and his disrupting the pass route so Manny Lawson could get the lone hit on Kellen Moore all game. Talk about a ridiculous waste of player talent.

 

 

The biggest difference between Mike Pettine in 2013 and Rex Ryan in 2014 that I noticed was that Pettine called a whole lot more blitzes and his blitzes were effective. Then the next biggest area of difference was that Ryan was determined to mostly run a run-stopping two-gap 3-4 scheme and although both men utilized multiple looks, fronts, schemes. Petting ran a lot of a one-gap 3-4 that was very similar to what Wade Phillips ran in Denver last year.

 

The other differences were that Ryan had Jerry Hughes at DE and Pettine had Alan Branch. Pettine also had Kiko Alonso at MLB with Moats and Manny Lawson. Then McKelvin, Gilmore, Williams and Byrd in the secondary.

 

Now think about that 2013 being #2 in sacks with 57 but also actually obtaining more sacks than Schwartz did in 2014 who had 54 sacks. That 2013 Bills defense did give up a bunch of rush yards for the season and were 10th in total defense. They were 28th against the run while being #4 against the pass and the #2 team in INT's. But while being 28th against the run that Bills D was 8th in giving up rushing TD's.

 

Considering the difference in defensive talent on both those teams I'd take that Pettine 2013 defense over last year's Ryan's defense. If nothing else that 2013 defense under Pettine was so darn exciting to watch and created so much havoc for opposing QB's. To me, Pettine did more with less talent and got the most out of the player talent on the roster.

 

 

Sure, Ryan could change things up for 2016 and start running more of a one-gap 4-3 scheme while calling more blitzes. Dareus could still be used as the nose tackle and still play the O tech while going full bore on one side of the center while the linebacker crashes the other in a one-gap scheme. He might even enjoy that a whole bunch more than playing in Ryan's two-gap in which he is to control the center and a draw double team from an OG. Yes, the latter would be a waste of a 100 million dollar pro bowl pass rusher.

 

 

If anyone thinks that Mario or Dareus were wrong to complain about last year's scheme. Stop and think about what Bruce Smith would have said or done had he been asked to not rush the passer, but to stay put over the OT, to control both the "B'' and "C" gaps he is responsible for...

 

 

Thank you for this wonderful post.

[eball]

Good post.

 

I never bought into the whole "Mario is a cancer" Schtick.

 

Only because you're blind to the facts.

 

When an employee disagrees with what his boss has asked him to do, he has options:

 

1 -- realize he's being paid to do a job and do it to the best of his ability

2 -- go to the boss and express his dissatisfaction, and try to come to an agreement before going back to #1 (i.e., giving best effort)

3 -- act like a spoiled brat and give half-assed effort because he knows better

 

If you believe Mario did either #1 or #2, you're a fool.

[FireChan]

 

Only because you're blind to the facts.

 

When an employee disagrees with what his boss has asked him to do, he has options:

 

1 -- realize he's being paid to do a job and do it to the best of his ability

2 -- go to the boss and express his dissatisfaction, and try to come to an agreement before going back to #1 (i.e., giving best effort)

3 -- act like a spoiled brat and give half-assed effort because he knows better

 

If you believe Mario did either #1 or #2, you're a fool.

Pro sports players are not regular employees.

[eball]

Pro sports players are not regular employees.

 

Cop out.

[FireChan]

 

Cop out.

Perhaps. All I know is that it's a reality that professional players have much different relationship than a standard employee under their "boss." For example, Mario Williams has seen 3 regime changes alone since signing in Buffalo. 3 different bosses. He's the one making $100M. Not Gailey, or Marrone or Rex. He's the talent.

 

It's a reality that in the climate today, coaches are responsible in part for getting their players to buy in. It happens in the NBA to a much higher degree than the NFL, but it's common in the NFL. Ask Philbin. That team sucked on purpose to get him fired, or they didn't care enough to save him. Either way.

 

It's my opinion that Rex did not put forth enough effort into getting the players to buy in when he started. He was too cocky. I think he underestimated how players would feel and how reticent they would be to change things. One silver lining is that I think he's learned his lesson.

[hondo in seattle]

 

Only because you're blind to the facts.

 

When an employee disagrees with what his boss has asked him to do, he has options:

 

1 -- realize he's being paid to do a job and do it to the best of his ability

2 -- go to the boss and express his dissatisfaction, and try to come to an agreement before going back to #1 (i.e., giving best effort)

3 -- act like a spoiled brat and give half-assed effort because he knows better

 

If you believe Mario did either #1 or #2, you're a fool.

 

I don't agree with the ad hominen attack (there's no reason to call fellow Bills fans fools). But you are right with Mario's choices. And this is why his fellow players complained about Mario - he made the worst possible choice.

 

Rex talks in his MMQB article about other players who have played for him that did their non-glamorous assignments without complaint and it's a fair point.

 

I do believe that the coaching staff should find ways to bring out the best in each player. Rex and Dennis failed with Mario last year and deserve some of the blame. But that doesn't excuse Mario. His behavior was immature and not good for the team. He needed to be cut.

[Fan in Chicago]

Perhaps. All I know is that it's a reality that professional players have much different relationship than a standard employee under their "boss." For example, Mario Williams has seen 3 regime changes alone since signing in Buffalo. 3 different bosses. He's the one making $100M. Not Gailey, or Marrone or Rex. He's the talent.

 

It's a reality that in the climate today, coaches are responsible in part for getting their players to buy in. It happens in the NBA to a much higher degree than the NFL, but it's common in the NFL. Ask Philbin. That team sucked on purpose to get him fired, or they didn't care enough to save him. Either way.

 

It's my opinion that Rex did not put forth enough effort into getting the players to buy in when he started. He was too cocky. I think he underestimated how players would feel and how reticent they would be to change things. One silver lining is that I think he's learned his lesson.

 

Actually, much as I dislike Ryan's first year (regressed D, too many penalties, late play calls, poor timeout management), I am with eball on this one. I loved Mario as a player and a person prior to last year but the former surely took a hit this past season. This is also not the first time this has happened and Houston fans had complained about a similar attitude issue (if the D is not to his preferences). You can try to fault Ryan's motivational skills, but there is no way for us to know that. Again, for all of Ryan's faults, motivational problems havent surfaced in the past so based on history also, I am apt to put more of the blame on MarioW than on Ryan.

 

Having said that, I still am extremely skeptical about the upcoming season because chronic issues with Ryan's coaching (as above), the lack of receiving threats on O, inattention to the right side of the OL are highly likely to doom the upcoming season.

[The Big Cat]

 

I don't agree with the ad hominen attack (there's no reason to call fellow Bills fans fools). But you are right with Mario's choices. And this is why his fellow players complained about Mario - he made the worst possible choice.

 

Rex talks in his MMQB article about other players who have played for him that did their non-glamorous assignments without complaint and it's a fair point.

 

I do believe that the coaching staff should find ways to bring out the best in each player. Rex and Dennis failed with Mario last year and deserve some of the blame. But that doesn't excuse Mario. His behavior was immature and not good for the team. He needed to be cut.

 

I think Rex's other MMQ points surrounding this issue were well made. Specifically that players in his system have won DPOY's, been to Pro-Bowls, been named All-Pro's, etc. And at every level of the defense. So exactly what is it about Rex's defense that doesn't allow for individuals to excel?

[FireChan]

 

Actually, much as I dislike Ryan's first year (regressed D, too many penalties, late play calls, poor timeout management), I am with eball on this one. I loved Mario as a player and a person prior to last year but the former surely took a hit this past season. This is also not the first time this has happened and Houston fans had complained about a similar attitude issue (if the D is not to his preferences). You can try to fault Ryan's motivational skills, but there is no way for us to know that. Again, for all of Ryan's faults, motivational problems havent surfaced in the past so based on history also, I am apt to put more of the blame on MarioW than on Ryan.

 

Having said that, I still am extremely skeptical about the upcoming season because chronic issues with Ryan's coaching (as above), the lack of receiving threats on O, inattention to the right side of the OL are highly likely to doom the upcoming season.

The players share blame, for sure. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. But Mario was far from the only player grumbling or slacking. He was the worst of them and the ring leader.

 

It is very easy for me to see a personality like Rex thinking he could walk in and the men would be willing to die for him like certain members of the Jets. But without the 6 year history, that doesn't happen. But you're right, it's just a theory.

Edited May 27, 2016 by FireChan

[The Big Cat]

The players share blame, for sure. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. But Mario was far from the only player grumbling or slacking. He was the worst of them and the ring leader.

 

It is very easy for me to see a personality like Rex thinking he could walk in and the men would be willing to die for him like certain members of the Jets. But without the 6 year history, that doesn't happen. But you're right, it's just a theory.

 

It's human nature. I work for a global consumer company and we just hired a new CEO. Not everyone's on board with her way of doing things, people at the highest echelons of the company. Guess what? They probably won't make it through the year. And she'll probably bring in her Justin Leonhards and her Bart Scott's to replace them. It's not a Rex Ryan way of doing things.

[Wayne Cubed]

The players share blame, for sure. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. But Mario was far from the only player grumbling or slacking. He was the worst of them and the ring leader.

 

It is very easy for me to see a personality like Rex thinking he could walk in and the men would be willing to die for him like certain members of the Jets. But without the 6 year history, that doesn't happen. But you're right, it's just a theory.

 

To that point, the reason it worked for him in the past, with the Jets, was because he brought players with him. Bart Scott. Jim Leonard. It seems from the interviews on MMQB, he understands by not bringing in guys that have played for him before, some players won't buy into it. Like you say, silver lining, he seems to have learned that.

[GunnerBill]

 

I think Rex's other MMQ points surrounding this issue were well made. Specifically that players in his system have won DPOY's, been to Pro-Bowls, been named All-Pro's, etc. And at every level of the defense. So exactly what is it about Rex's defense that doesn't allow for individuals to excel?

 

My question with Rex's scheme has never been is it capable of being great - the answer is obviously yes. It is whether it is capable of being great the way that more and more NFL offense are now playing with more spread option concepts and quick release offenses. I have my doubts but maybe with the personnel they selected this year they will prove that it can.

[The Big Cat]

 

My question with Rex's scheme has never been is it capable of being great - the answer is obviously yes. It is whether it is capable of being great the way that more and more NFL offense are now playing with more spread option concepts and quick release offenses. I have my doubts but maybe with the personnel they selected this year they will prove that it can.

 

I've heard that Rex's scheme is weak against power football and weak against the spread. Can't possibly be both.

[GunnerBill]

 

I've heard that Rex's scheme is weak against power football and weak against the spread. Can't possibly be both.

 

I think it's issue is against the spread and the quick release offenses. I don't have any doubt about its ability to stand up to teams who want to try and run it down your throat.

[mannc]

 

I've heard that Rex's scheme is weak against power football and weak against the spread. Can't possibly be both.

Why not?

[26CornerBlitz]

 

My question with Rex's scheme has never been is it capable of being great - the answer is obviously yes. It is whether it is capable of being great the way that more and more NFL offense are now playing with more spread option concepts and quick release offenses. I have my doubts but maybe with the personnel they selected this year they will prove that it can.

 

It comes down to communication, execution, and commitment in addition to talent. We'll see.

[The Big Cat]

Why not?

 

Because I don't believe it's suddenly a scheme that's ineffectual against whatever an offense throws its way. Do you believe that?