The equally annoying "Obnoxiously Obtuse Optimists"

[FireChan]

Your mincing words Chan...you just pointed to rankings to try to prove Pettine is better then Rex

With the Bills? Absolutely.

[thebandit27]

Curious how you - and Gunner - compare Shaq with Bosa. I'll hang up and listen. Just curious, as i don't "watch film" and just "watch games."

I had Bosa as a top-6 guy. To me, he's a classic down lineman. More explosive than Shaq, but has the same powerful hands and generally quicker at the POA.

 

I don't love the idea that SD is going to play him as a Sam or a LEO. I think he's a 9-tech that offers the flexibility to rush anywhere along the DL, and I definitely want him up front against the run as much as possible.

 

EDIT: I'll also say that I don't watch film either--almost all of my work comes via draftbreakdown.com

Edited May 26, 2016 by thebandit27

[BADOLBILZ]

 

 

 

I'm with Gunner on Shaq--I had him as a top-15 talent.

 

He's not a quick-twitch guy, but I actually think he'll be a very good pass rusher/EDGE guy in the NFL. I think he compares well with Terrell Suggs actually. Both were 20+ TFL guys as Seniors, both are in the 270-lb range, both played up/down/in/out, etc. They also had very similar combine numbers: both had 33" vertical and 120-inch broad. Suggs pressed 19 reps; Shaq didn't press because of the shoulder, but it would shock me if he weren't in the same realm. Suggs had a slower 40, but that's useless when evaluating front-7 guys (just ask Clowney).

 

I like the comparison and respect your take and I will be thrilled if you are right but I just don't feel it.

 

I was a big Suggs fan coming out of college.........he was a pure, relentless pass rusher.........I didn't see Shaq the same way and his production was inflated by extra games and playing with huge leads.......critical in the college game because often the only way to make plays against quick hitting college offenses is to force them to play from behind.

 

Much was made of Suggs' awful testing results after being considered a top 2 overall pick thru much of the process........but Baltimore wisely didn't let him fall far.

 

It's telling that similar athletic numbers aren't considered so awful for Shaq.

 

Now maybe the repaired shoulder will open up his game and he will improve his get-off......improvement can happen and he seems like the kind of player that wants to be great.......but I trust my eyes and I don't love what I've seen from him.

[Simon]

I think the Suggs comparison is wishful thinking; Lawson is just not carrying that kind of obscene natural ability. I guess neither is anybody else for that matter.

I think the Bills view him sort of as a more versatile and athletic Aaron Smith. And if they can get Aaron Smith quality play out of him for the next 8-9 years, I'd call it a pick very well spent.

[Maury Ballstein]

 

I like the comparison and respect your take and I will be thrilled if you are right but I just don't feel it.

 

I was a big Suggs fan coming out of college.........he was a pure, relentless pass rusher.........I didn't see Shaq the same way and his production was inflated by extra games and playing with huge leads.......critical in the college game because often the only way to make plays against quick hitting college offenses is to force them to play from behind.

 

Much was made of Suggs' awful testing results after being considered a top 2 overall pick thru much of the process........but Baltimore wisely didn't let him fall far.

 

It's telling that similar athletic numbers aren't considered so awful for Shaq.

 

Now maybe the repaired shoulder will open up his game and he will improve his get-off......improvement can happen and he seems like the kind of player that wants to be great.......but I trust my eyes and I don't love what I've seen from him.

Who did you want at 19 ? Which BPA were you wishing for ?

[BADOLBILZ]

I think the Suggs comparison is wishful thinking; Lawson is just not carrying that kind of obscene natural ability. I guess neither is anybody else for that matter.

I think the Bills view him sort of as a more versatile and athletic Aaron Smith. And if they can get Aaron Smith quality play out of him for the next 8-9 years, I'd call it a pick very well spent.

 

Yeah I think that is probably a more apt comparison as well.........but if Aaron Smith was playing for an organization that didn't have an established identity or a franchise QB would he have been versatile enough to play the same key role thru regime and scheme changes?

 

This is a concern with me with Shaq.

[John from Riverside]

 

Yeah I think that is probably a more apt comparison as well.........but if Aaron Smith was playing for an organization that didn't have an established identity or a franchise QB would he have been versatile enough to play the same key role thru regime and scheme changes?

 

This is a concern with me with Shaq.

I would totally take Aaron Smith production from Shaq Lawson

 

I think he does have the versatility to continue to be very effective if there was a scheme change.

[Simon]

 

Yeah I think that is probably a more apt comparison as well.........but if Aaron Smith was playing for an organization that didn't have an established identity or a franchise QB would he have been versatile enough to play the same key role thru regime and scheme changes?

 

This is a concern with me with Shaq.

 

As much as I loved the guy's game, he probably wasn't all that scheme diverse. He was a perfect fit for what Lebeau wanted to do on the edge, but he would have been pretty pedestrian as a 4-3 end. He would probably been effective as a DT in some 4-3 Unders and that's about it. But he wouldn't likely have been the same kind of impact guy he turned out to be.

I see Lawson as the same kind of great fit for Rex, but with some added potential to be used in other roles. If Rex pukes on his shirt and is out of here in the next year or two, Lawson could probably still be effective in 3 different roles of virtually any 4-3 you want to run. He's strong enough at the POA to play outside or inside at anywhere but the Nose and he's going to be a handful for one guy in most passpro situations. He's not likely an athletic enough closer to put up big sack numbers but I think he'll be a factor in moving QB's off their spot and forcing them into more difficult throws; which could be a boon for a dangerous Bills secondary. Setting edges upfield is likely to be his forte, but if it came down to it, kicking him inside next to Dareus could still be a great tandem to build out from.

Aside from the physical fit, I think you should give more credence to the fact that guy has great motor and really seems to take pride in winning physical battles. He's exactly the kind of ballplayer Whaley wants to stock this roster with and if he stays healthy he could spend years dominating matchups at a few different positions.

[BADOLBILZ]

I would totally take Aaron Smith production from Shaq Lawson

 

I think he does have the versatility to continue to be very effective if there was a scheme change.

 

Aaron Smith was a 4th round pick playing a 2-gap DE for Pittsburgh.

 

He was a 4-5 sack guy and made one pro bowl in ten seasons.........that's solid work but not what you hope for from your 1st round pick.

 

Smith was really good at what he did but his job was mainly to create opportunities for others to make plays.........and your first round picks are for those others.

 

One of the advantages of playing a 3-4 is that DE's who can't rush the passer are pretty easy to find......because the two most important things in the game are QB play and pass rush......so using a first round pick on one is an overcommitment of resources.

[Simon]

 

He was a 4-5 sack guy and made one pro bowl in ten seasons.........that's solid work but not what you hope for from your 1st round pick.

 

 

If guys were making Pro Bowl votes based on 34 criteria, I know you know he would have made a whole lot more of them.

I'd take a consistently Pro Bowl quality DLineman around the #20 spot every single time.

[John from Riverside]

 

Aaron Smith was a 4th round pick playing a 2-gap DE for Pittsburgh.

 

He was a 4-5 sack guy and made one pro bowl in ten seasons.........that's solid work but not what you hope for from your 1st round pick.

 

Smith was really good at what he did but his job was mainly to create opportunities for others to make plays.........and your first round picks are for those others.

 

One of the advantages of playing a 3-4 is that DE's who can't rush the passer are pretty easy to find......because the two most important things in the game are QB play and pass rush......so using a first round pick on one is an overcommitment of resources.

Or maybe Aaron Smith just did his job....

[Nihilarian]

That would be a waste of a 100 million dollar player

 

i have no doubt that Marcel will play "some" nose for the RR defense

 

You know...one thing that is not talked about here.....Pettine was RR's pupil......the guy that people love so much because of the huge sack year he produced 2 season's ago......schemes aside the only thing that is different between Pettine and Rex is Rex cares about stopping the run as well while Pettine could care less.

 

We are in year TWO of the RR defense......I want to see what is put on the field before I pass judgement

It was a waste of around 250 million dollars last season!! Because that entire D-line was forced to play in a scheme that didn't fit their talents. It's kinda why Dareus bitched about it since training camp and then later Mario went public with his dislike of how he was being used in Ryan's scheme. Mario didn't complain as much about the scheme as he disliked dropping into pass coverage so often. Talk about a colossal waste of talent! The Bills could have had four 330lb inept slugs on that D-line instead of such highly skilled pro bowl pass rushers and still done as well.

 

Think about running a version of Dick Lebeau's zone blitz with the players that Buffalo had at linebacker last year. What makes more sense, to rush with the front four or send a D-linemen into pass coverage so a LBer could rush? The 2015 Bills coaches were happy about Mario dropping into pass coverage and his disrupting the pass route so Manny Lawson could get the lone hit on Kellen Moore all game. Talk about a ridiculous waste of player talent.

 

 

The biggest difference between Mike Pettine in 2013 and Rex Ryan in 2014 that I noticed was that Pettine called a whole lot more blitzes and his blitzes were effective. Then the next biggest area of difference was that Ryan was determined to mostly run a run-stopping two-gap 3-4 scheme and although both men utilized multiple looks, fronts, schemes. Petting ran a lot of a one-gap 3-4 that was very similar to what Wade Phillips ran in Denver last year.

 

The other differences were that Ryan had Jerry Hughes at DE and Pettine had Alan Branch. Pettine also had Kiko Alonso at MLB with Moats and Manny Lawson. Then McKelvin, Gilmore, Williams and Byrd in the secondary.

 

Now think about that 2013 being #2 in sacks with 57 but also actually obtaining more sacks than Schwartz did in 2014 who had 54 sacks. That 2013 Bills defense did give up a bunch of rush yards for the season and were 10th in total defense. They were 28th against the run while being #4 against the pass and the #2 team in INT's. But while being 28th against the run that Bills D was 8th in giving up rushing TD's.

 

Considering the difference in defensive talent on both those teams I'd take that Pettine 2013 defense over last year's Ryan's defense. If nothing else that 2013 defense under Pettine was so darn exciting to watch and created so much havoc for opposing QB's. To me, Pettine did more with less talent and got the most out of the player talent on the roster.

 

 

Sure, Ryan could change things up for 2016 and start running more of a one-gap 4-3 scheme while calling more blitzes. Dareus could still be used as the nose tackle and still play the O tech while going full bore on one side of the center while the linebacker crashes the other in a one-gap scheme. He might even enjoy that a whole bunch more than playing in Ryan's two-gap in which he is to control the center and a draw double team from an OG. Yes, the latter would be a waste of a 100 million dollar pro bowl pass rusher.

 

 

If anyone thinks that Mario or Dareus were wrong to complain about last year's scheme. Stop and think about what Bruce Smith would have said or done had he been asked to not rush the passer, but to stay put over the OT, to control both the "B'' and "C" gaps he is responsible for...

 

 

[What a Tuel]

What? Of course it does. Pettine has fielded a top 10 D more recently that Rex, and he didn't take two years of growing pains to do it.

Point me to where I said he was awesome?

Stay in your weight class, homie.

 

With the Bills? Absolutely.

 

Seeing as how Pettine never had a top 10 defense with the Bills, I assumed you were talking about his 9th ranked defense (PPG) with the Browns.

 

My bad.

Edited May 26, 2016 by What a Tuel

[FireChan]

 

 

 

 

Seeing as how Pettine never had a top 10 defense with the Bills, I assumed you were talking about his 9th ranked defense (PPG) with the Browns.

 

My bad.

Incorrect. His defense was #10 in YPG in 2013.

Edited May 26, 2016 by FireChan

[thebandit27]

 

I like the comparison and respect your take and I will be thrilled if you are right but I just don't feel it.

 

I was a big Suggs fan coming out of college.........he was a pure, relentless pass rusher.........I didn't see Shaq the same way and his production was inflated by extra games and playing with huge leads.......critical in the college game because often the only way to make plays against quick hitting college offenses is to force them to play from behind.

 

Much was made of Suggs' awful testing results after being considered a top 2 overall pick thru much of the process........but Baltimore wisely didn't let him fall far.

 

It's telling that similar athletic numbers aren't considered so awful for Shaq.

 

Now maybe the repaired shoulder will open up his game and he will improve his get-off......improvement can happen and he seems like the kind of player that wants to be great.......but I trust my eyes and I don't love what I've seen from him.

 

Yeah, the biggest difference between the two, IMO, is that what Suggs lacked athletically he made up for with a really solid, consistent get-off.

 

Shaq, on the other hand, is a bit better athlete, and probably a bit stronger at the POA when 100% healthy, but he doesn't have the same initial jump. I think that's one of the reasons he'll play as a 2-point a bit more than he would in other schemes--it'll give him a bit more space to execute. He's also got a really nice, well-developed inside move that I don't see from a lot of college EDGE guys (though it's nowhere near the type of inside move JJ Watt had coming out of Wisconsin).

 

I do think they share the relentless trait as Simon mentioned.

 

That said, there are many ways to skin the cat as a pass rusher, as we've seen with the vast differences between the way guys like Hughes and Mario create their pressure. Assuming Shaq's shoulder comes through (which I do), I think he'll be a consistent factor in the pass rush moving forward.

[What a Tuel]

Incorrect. His defense was #10 in YPG in 2013.

 

Going by that metric (which I question), you realize Rex Ryan's Jets defense was 11th in YPG in 2013? A 1.5 ypg difference.

[FireChan]

 

Going by that metric (which I question), you realize Rex Ryan's Jets defense was 11th in YPG in 2013? A 1.5 ypg difference.

Was it top 10?

 

Oh. Hence the weight class remark.

[John from Riverside]

Was it top 10?

 

Oh. Hence the weight class remark.

10th vs 11th....really?

[FireChan]

10th vs 11th....really?

One is better than the other, no?

[John from Riverside]

One is better than the other, no?

Well yeah but.....jesus Chan